NBA · OT: Al Jefferson 39pts 15reb vs Suns (page 3)

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

bump.

Posted by Masterplan:

local article courtesy of TrueHoop:

[url="http://www.rakemag.com/blogs/ball/2008/01/three-pointer-two-straight"]link[/url]

More than any game thus far this season, Jefferson played offense with a killer instinct. The raw numbers are pretty revealing: 39 points, 14 free throws, 8 offensive rebounds. Stoudemire was helpless. Or, better put, the Suns starting giving him a lot of help, with as many as two or three others collapsing on Jefferson when he received the rock, and it really didn't matter. If for some reason Jefferson didn't succeed at first, he got the ball back and tried again. The dude finished with 29 FGA (making 15) and 14 FTA (making 9) and it didn't feel like he was hogging the ball. That's when you know you are having fun.

A brief pause here, while I drop a fly in the punchbowl. Jefferson's utter lack of defense was nearly as monumental as his voracious offense. Stoudemire was 14 of 16 from the field and one of his two misses was a meaningless trey chucked with three seconds left in the game. He scored 33 points in the 29:40 that Jefferson was guarding him, which is why Jefferson finished the game with a team-worst minus -4. That doesn't change the fact that Jefferson was the dominant force in a Wolves' victory, because he most indisputably was. But it does neatly encapsulate the spectacularly half-assed season Jefferson is putting together. Okay, let's move on.

Wait, so because Amare Stoudemire abused him on the defensive side, it means that he isn't even a mediocre defender in general? Talk about using a single stat line.

I still don't see where you can compare a 23 year old player learning how to be a dominant player can be compared to a stat whore like Zach Randolph.

I also saw this in that quote: "The dude finished with 29 FGA (making 15) and 14 FTA (making 9) and it didn't feel like he was hogging the ball."

How often can you say that about Randolph?

I don't understand why there's this undying passion to crap on players in a "Save Face" manner to make us feel better about our situation.


If it's true Al Jefferson is a stat whore, with no upside, and putting up good stats because hes on a bad team then David Lee sucks, Jamal Crawford sucks, Nate Robinson sucks, EY Curry sucks, and obviously Randolph sucks because they put up decent stats on a historically bad team.


Name 23-25yr old power forwards who have posted close to back-to-back 40pt games practically, while snagging 17reb/gm and getting 3blks.

Name 23-25yr old power forwards who are averaging 21pts and 13reb/gm

I'm pretty sure that Brandon Roy wouldn't go to Blazers management and tell them that he wanted Al Jefferson gone.

Posted by islesfan:

Wait, so because Amare Stoudemire abused him on the defensive side, it means that he isn't even a mediocre defender in general? Talk about using a single stat line.

I still don't see where you can compare a 23 year old player learning how to be a dominant player can be compared to a stat whore like Zach Randolph.

I also saw this in that quote: "The dude finished with 29 FGA (making 15) and 14 FTA (making 9) and it didn't feel like he was hogging the ball."

How often can you say that about Randolph?

honestly i've barely seen al jefferson play. judging by how inconvenient it's been for me to catch any celtics games last year or t-wolves games this year, i'm guessing you haven't seen a whole lot of him either outside of highlights. but maybe you have, so correct me if i'm wrong. anyway i mean no offense.

but, as to the article - the writer covers the t-wolves for the local press. if he says that AJ has put in a "spectacularly half-assed season," i put some stock in that. it's not about one game, even one where jefferson only forced a *single* miss by the man he was guarding. the guy's not a hater - he gives al some serious props as you pointed out. but what he says fits AJ's rep as a lazy-ass defender, all the more frustrating because of his physical gifts.

as for the zach comparisons, i think they're fair until AJ shows any level of commitment to defense. they're obviously not clones, but they're both talented players who haven't won jack, probably partly because they're one-dimensional. jefferson's got a good career ahead of him, but i'm not going to give any player too much props until he plays some damn D. that's just me though. and i'm absolutely not in this discussion to defend zach in any way.

Posted by islesfan:

I'm pretty sure that Brandon Roy wouldn't go to Blazers management and tell them that he wanted Al Jefferson gone.

Agreed and I even read in particular on the Realgm board and here too, "Mchale got nothing for Garnett" in the Celtic trade all because most of the fans are bitter and felt we could have offered a better package. Couple this with the argument cited in my opening post and you have to wonder what kind of players meet our fan base's standard? Posting how well Al is doing only for it to be followed up with a shallow well "his team is 8-35" is comical at best. If that's the case and we're judging him by wins can we do the same for our team? Oh that's right that's a No-No we can't apply the same standard to our team judging them by wins. Our team is 14-29 and if you compare rosters 1-12 on paper we have the better roster. We don't have players with the same upside as Al besides maybe Lee, and it's highly debatable. Minnesota plays not only in a tougher Conference but also a better Division than we do. Wasn't K.G on a losing Minny team last yr? W's and L's don't always tell the whole story.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 2:56 PM]

Well Mchale turned down

Ty Thomas, Deng and Tyson Chandler at the beginning of last season
Al Harington, Biedrins, Ellis, and the 20th pick at the end of the year

So in comparison he didn't get enough for Garnett outside of Jefferson, when your talking about the league's top talent (Howard, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron) you should get more than they did, it doesn't mean the package was horrific, but just not what it should have been.

Speedy Claxton/Dale Davis for Baron Davis
Kwame Brown for Caron Butler
Eric Williams, Alvin Williams, Alonzo for Vince Carter
Eddy Curry for Two lottery picks
PJ Brown and JR. Smith for Tyson Chandler

People get ripped off all the time, half the NBA is recycled players with zero eye for talent Jordan, Bird, McChale, Isiah, Elgin Baylor, making frivoulous deals, signings and panic moves.

And you have to remember Jefferson is playing without a center, a pg, a sf he has no one on that team right now. If Foye was healthy and Ratliff they would have a better record than the Knicks which doesn't say much, but again they are in better position than we are.

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

Wait, so because Amare Stoudemire abused him on the defensive side, it means that he isn't even a mediocre defender in general? Talk about using a single stat line.

I still don't see where you can compare a 23 year old player learning how to be a dominant player can be compared to a stat whore like Zach Randolph.

I also saw this in that quote: "The dude finished with 29 FGA (making 15) and 14 FTA (making 9) and it didn't feel like he was hogging the ball."

How often can you say that about Randolph?

honestly i've barely seen al jefferson play. judging by how inconvenient it's been for me to catch any celtics games last year or t-wolves games this year, i'm guessing you haven't seen a whole lot of him either outside of highlights. but maybe you have, so correct me if i'm wrong. anyway i mean no offense.

but, as to the article - the writer covers the t-wolves for the local press. if he says that AJ has put in a "spectacularly half-assed season," i put some stock in that. it's not about one game, even one where jefferson only forced a *single* miss by the man he was guarding. the guy's not a hater - he gives al some serious props as you pointed out. but what he says fits AJ's rep as a lazy-ass defender, all the more frustrating because of his physical gifts.

as for the zach comparisons, i think they're fair until AJ shows any level of commitment to defense. they're obviously not clones, but they're both talented players who haven't won jack, probably partly because they're one-dimensional. jefferson's got a good career ahead of him, but i'm not going to give any player too much props until he plays some damn D. that's just me though. and i'm absolutely not in this discussion to defend zach in any way.

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by islesfan:

I'm pretty sure that Brandon Roy wouldn't go to Blazers management and tell them that he wanted Al Jefferson gone.

Agreed and I even read in particular on the Realgm board and here too, "Mchale got nothing for Garnett" in the Celtic trade all because most of the fans are bitter and felt we could have offered a better package. Couple this with the argument cited in my opening post and you have to wonder what kind of players meet our fan base's standard? Posting how well Al is doing only for it to be followed up with a shallow well "his team is 8-35" is comical at best. If that's the case and we're judging him by wins can we do the same for our team? Oh that's right that's a No-No we can't apply the same standard to our team judging them by wins. Our team is 14-29 and if you compare rosters 1-12 on paper we have the better roster. We don't have players with the same upside as Al besides maybe Lee, and it's highly debatable. Minnesota plays not only in a tougher Conference but also a better Division than we do. Wasn't K.G on a losing Minny team last yr? W's and L's don't always tell the whole story.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 2:56 PM]

i'm definitely not here to defend zach - i hated the trade when it first went down.

i think i'm holding teams and players to the same standard here - i will not give eddy curry, zach randolph or al jefferson props until they show a commitment to defense. fair enough?

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

Posted by MS:

Well Mchale turned down

Ty Thomas, Deng and Tyson Chandler at the beginning of last season
Al Harington, Biedrins, Ellis, and the 20th pick at the end of the year

So in comparison he didn't get enough for Garnett outside of Jefferson, when your talking about the league's top talent (Howard, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron) you should get more than they did, it doesn't mean the package was horrific, but just not what it should have been.

Speedy Claxton/Dale Davis for Baron Davis
Kwame Brown for Caron Butler
Eric Williams, Alvin Williams, Alonzo for Vince Carter
Eddy Curry for Two lottery picks
PJ Brown and JR. Smith for Tyson Chandler

People get ripped off all the time, half the NBA is recycled players with zero eye for talent Jordan, Bird, McChale, Isiah, Elgin Baylor, making frivoulous deals, signings and panic moves.

And you have to remember Jefferson is playing without a center, a pg, a sf he has no one on that team right now. If Foye was healthy and Ratliff they would have a better record than the Knicks which doesn't say much, but again they are in better position than we are.

Remember, the Wolves got back their own #1 pick from the Celtics in that trade. Let's see who that would have turned out to be before we judge this trade. It was protected but chances are it would have been a pretty high pick. Add that to Jefferson blossoming into a solid 20/10 player and it's not a bad trade.

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by islesfan:

I'm pretty sure that Brandon Roy wouldn't go to Blazers management and tell them that he wanted Al Jefferson gone.

Agreed and I even read in particular on the Realgm board and here too, "Mchale got nothing for Garnett" in the Celtic trade all because most of the fans are bitter and felt we could have offered a better package. Couple this with the argument cited in my opening post and you have to wonder what kind of players meet our fan base's standard? Posting how well Al is doing only for it to be followed up with a shallow well "his team is 8-35" is comical at best. If that's the case and we're judging him by wins can we do the same for our team? Oh that's right that's a No-No we can't apply the same standard to our team judging them by wins. Our team is 14-29 and if you compare rosters 1-12 on paper we have the better roster. We don't have players with the same upside as Al besides maybe Lee, and it's highly debatable. Minnesota plays not only in a tougher Conference but also a better Division than we do. Wasn't K.G on a losing Minny team last yr? W's and L's don't always tell the whole story.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 2:56 PM]

i'm definitely not here to defend zach - i hated the trade when it first went down.

i think i'm holding teams and players to the same standard here - i will not give eddy curry, zach randolph or al jefferson props until they show a commitment to defense. fair enough?

Geez, now he's in Curry's class defensively as well?

Why do you insist on comparing a "C" student to 2 guys who consistently get "F"'s?

Posted by MS:

Well Mchale turned down

Ty Thomas, Deng and Tyson Chandler at the beginning of last season
Al Harington, Biedrins, Ellis, and the 20th pick at the end of the year

So in comparison he didn't get enough for Garnett outside of Jefferson, when your talking about the league's top talent (Howard, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron) you should get more than they did, it doesn't mean the package was horrific, but just not what it should have been.

Speedy Claxton/Dale Davis for Baron Davis
Kwame Brown for Caron Butler
Eric Williams, Alvin Williams, Alonzo for Vince Carter
Eddy Curry for Two lottery picks
PJ Brown and JR. Smith for Tyson Chandler

People get ripped off all the time, half the NBA is recycled players with zero eye for talent Jordan, Bird, McChale, Isiah, Elgin Baylor, making frivoulous deals, signings and panic moves.

And you have to remember Jefferson is playing without a center, a pg, a sf he has no one on that team right now. If Foye was healthy and Ratliff they would have a better record than the Knicks which doesn't say much, but again they are in better position than we are.

Sorry yes he did. He got back their pick from Boston in the Ricky Davis/Blount/Zerbiak trade. Minny currently sits in the Top 5 in the lottery. He got a future first from the Celtics 2009 Top 3 protected. He got Al Jefferson, He got an expiring contract in Theo Ratliff instead of extending K.G. or taking on more salary beyond this season. So in summary Minny got a Top 5-8 Pick, First Rounder 2009 Top 3 protection, Al Jefferson, and an expiring 08 contract. If he turns..... Ryan Gomes, Telfair, or Green, into anything else it's more than gravy.




[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 3:39 PM]

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

the connection is that you have only caught a few games of Jefferson and have no other basis than that. I have read too many articles by Minn beat staff that say Jefferson is great offensively and then he shuts it down on the other end of the court.

Posted by islesfan:

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

what is there to equate? the "mediocre" thing is your opinion.

apparently we've watched a comparable number of 06-07 celtics and 07-08 t-wolves games: "few." i backed up my "no defense" opinion with an article written by a twolves beat reporter who watches and blogs most if not all of those games, apparently. the reason i took note of it when i first saw it was that the reputation has dogged AJ since his celtics days, and i was disappointed to hear it again in such forceful terms.

Posted by islesfan:

Geez, now he's in Curry's class defensively as well?

Why do you insist on comparing a "C" student to 2 guys who consistently get "F"'s?

i bet people around the league would use the same terms to describe eddy and al's effort and effectiveness on defense. they both have the same reputation. that's my point. other than reputation, it's hard to judge myself without being able or even really wanting to see more of his games.

i really don't care who's better between those three dudes. what kind of pathetic competition is that? if you think AJ's better than zach and eddy, i won't argue with that. two whole letter grades better, though? you haven't shown any evidence at all that that's the case.

i am holding AJ to the same standard i use to *criticize* eddy and zach. i have yet to really grasp what standards you are using.

EDIT: and to be clear, and maybe make this my final word on the matter - the standard i use is - if a player is routinely criticized for not trying on defense, and doesn't perform near what their expertise, abilities and efforts on the offensive end indicate they're capable of - i will have roughly that same opinion of them overall regardless of offensive stats.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-28-2008 5:16 PM]

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

the connection is that you have only caught a few games of Jefferson and have no other basis than that. I have read too many articles by Minn beat staff that say Jefferson is great offensively and then he shuts it down on the other end of the court.

Define "shuts it down". Does that mean that he's totally useless like Zach and Curry? Statistically, I don't see how you can say that.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

the connection is that you have only caught a few games of Jefferson and have no other basis than that. I have read too many articles by Minn beat staff that say Jefferson is great offensively and then he shuts it down on the other end of the court.

Define "shuts it down". Does that mean that he's totally useless like Zach and Curry? Statistically, I don't see how you can say that.

how can you begin to comment on a player when you have only seen a few games?

Could it be that the Beat Writer is just a little more critical of the team and players he covers vs Per Say an outsider casual fan who doesn't catch their games? Logic says the player who averages better numbers and has better overall totals in defensive categories such as Blocks and Steals, suggest one player is giving more and playing better than the other in such areas. Let's use some common sense here.

Al is averaging 1.3blks/gm(58blks), 1stls/gm(44stls), 12.5reb/gm(519reb)


Zach is averaging .2blks/gm(6blks), .8stls/gm(33stls), 10.3reb/gm(401reb)


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 4:57 PM]

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

what is there to equate? the "mediocre" thing is your opinion.

apparently we've watched a comparable number of 06-07 celtics and 07-08 t-wolves games: "few." i backed up my "no defense" opinion with an article written by a twolves beat reporter who watches and blogs most if not all of those games, apparently. the reason i took note of it when i first saw it was that the reputation has dogged AJ since his celtics days, and i was disappointed to hear it again in such forceful terms.

Posted by islesfan:

Geez, now he's in Curry's class defensively as well?

Why do you insist on comparing a "C" student to 2 guys who consistently get "F"'s?

i bet people around the league would use the same terms to describe eddy and al's effort and effectiveness on defense. they both have the same reputation. that's my point. other than reputation, it's hard to judge myself without being able or even really wanting to see more of his games.

i really don't care who's better between those three dudes. what kind of pathetic competition is that? if you think AJ's better than zach and eddy, i won't argue with that. two whole letter grades better, though? you haven't shown any evidence at all that that's the case.

i am holding AJ to the same standard i use to *criticize* eddy and zach. i have yet to really grasp what standards you are using.

EDIT: and to be clear, and maybe make this my final word on the matter - the standard i use is - if a player is routinely criticized for not trying on defense, and doesn't perform near what their expertise, abilities and efforts on the offensive end indicate they're capable of - i will have roughly that same opinion of them overall regardless of offensive stats.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-28-2008 5:16 PM]

You haven't shown any evidence that AJ is at Curry and Randolph's pathetic level defensively. At the very minimum, there is statistical evidence to show that AJ is better.

Why are you so worried about where players "should be" instead of where the actually are? Why lump all of them together and completely disregard their actual levels. In other words, I agree that Jefferson, Curry and Zach SHOULD be better defensively but in actuality, Curry and Zach are far worse defensively than Jefferson is. Therefore, there is no valid comparison between Jefferson and those players.

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by martin:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

the connection is that you have only caught a few games of Jefferson and have no other basis than that. I have read too many articles by Minn beat staff that say Jefferson is great offensively and then he shuts it down on the other end of the court.

Define "shuts it down". Does that mean that he's totally useless like Zach and Curry? Statistically, I don't see how you can say that.

how can you begin to comment on a player when you have only seen a few games?

Because I've seen a hell of a lot of the ole defense that Zach and Eddy perform every night and from what I've seen, Jefferson is nowhere near that bad. The statistics back that up.

Why aren't you asking those who have only seen Jefferson play a few games, why they can make that comparison to Zach and Curry?

[Edited by - islesfan on 28-01-2008 5:23 PM]