Off Topic · Our Government is failing us (page 1)

The Dow is now below 7000. Our markets have lost over %50 of their value in barely a year. Were spending almost a trillion dollars on NOTHING! 13$ a week will be going into our pockets while the Feds take away thousands from each individual American. Our Government is now so corrupt that it is unable to do anything to reverse the coming depression. Our banks are about to be nationalized, a very real threat against capitalism in our country.

This is not an indictment against Obama or his administration, its an indictment against both parties and everybody involved in this political farce. Every politician has one hand pointing a finger, blaming everyone else and the other hand picking the pocket of the American citizen.

Honestly fellas, I fear that dark days are coming...

Posted by izybx:

The Dow is now below 7000. Our markets have lost over %50 of their value in barely a year. Were spending almost a trillion dollars on NOTHING! 13$ a week will be going into our pockets while the Feds take away thousands from each individual American. Our Government is now so corrupt that it is unable to do anything to reverse the coming depression. Our banks are about to be nationalized, a very real threat against capitalism in our country.

This is not an indictment against Obama or his administration, its an indictment against both parties and everybody involved in this political farce. Every politician has one hand pointing a finger, blaming everyone else and the other hand picking the pocket of the American citizen.

Honestly fellas, I fear that dark days are coming...

Are you living in a box because you aren't aware that we've been in a financial crisis for nearly a year now. Yet you worry about maintaing captialism while this very same idea of capitalism and allowing the market work it self out is now bitting all of us in our collective asses. If you want someone to blame well the list is long and both parties are culpable but unfortunately the Tsunami known as the Bush Presidency only expedited this crisis. Also the American people should also not forget their roles in creating this crisis as well.

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

The Dow is now below 7000. Our markets have lost over %50 of their value in barely a year. Were spending almost a trillion dollars on NOTHING! 13$ a week will be going into our pockets while the Feds take away thousands from each individual American. Our Government is now so corrupt that it is unable to do anything to reverse the coming depression. Our banks are about to be nationalized, a very real threat against capitalism in our country.

This is not an indictment against Obama or his administration, its an indictment against both parties and everybody involved in this political farce. Every politician has one hand pointing a finger, blaming everyone else and the other hand picking the pocket of the American citizen.

Honestly fellas, I fear that dark days are coming...

Are you living in a box because you aren't aware that we've been in a financial crisis for nearly a year now. Yet you worry about maintaing captialism while this very same idea of capitalism and allowing the market work it self out is now bitting all of us in our collective asses. If you want someone to blame well the list is long and both parties are culpable but unfortunately the Tsunami known as the Bush Presidency only expedited this crisis. Also the American people should also not forget their roles in creating this crisis as well.

Perhaps Im not as smart as the average person. It has only recently become clear to me how severe the economic downturn is going to be. I now realize how completely useless the federal government is in doing anything to help turn this around. We just passed a huge bill that is going to cost middle class Americans like myself a fortune while only contributing a fraction of the money to actually stimulating economic activity.

First we had to bail out the banks. Now we have to bail out "homeowners". Next well bail out whoever has their hand out. And the people who get to pay are responsible people who work and stay out of debt. We get to get raped by greedy politicians and corrupt corporations.

This is going downhill real fast. These next few years will be a disaster. The markets have only begun their slide. Soon the states will be bankrupt. Its going to get real bad in a hurry

Let me ask you this question do you believe that the Economic Crisis was created over the last month and a half? And what solutions would you offer?

Posted by bitty41:

Let me ask you this question do you believe that the Economic Crisis was created over the last month and a half? And what solutions would you offer?

No.

I have an idea. Lets let the banks go bankrupt, let unprofitable businesses fail, let people who made poor decisions lose their homes. Its called capitalism. Let the market correct itself. Once the banks go bankrupt the goverment should step in to make sure that whatever new banks buy up the remains dont grow so big that their failure means the downfall of the American economy.

If there has to be some stimulus package, how about it goes to the American consumer. $13 a week. Unreal

Posted by izybx:

Posted by bitty41:

Let me ask you this question do you believe that the Economic Crisis was created over the last month and a half? And what solutions would you offer?

No.

I have an idea. Lets let the banks go bankrupt, let unprofitable businesses fail, let people who made poor decisions lose their homes. Its called capitalism. Let the market correct itself. Once the banks go bankrupt the goverment should step in to make sure that whatever new banks buy up the remains dont grow so big that their failure means the downfall of the American economy.

If there has to be some stimulus package, how about it goes to the American consumer. $13 a week. Unreal

Your suggestion is borderline child-like. Right now every major bank is insolvent which means that their liabilities exceeds their assets. Without the Federal Government stepping in the entire system will collapse not only the American economy but the global economy as well. So I repeat for you to suggest that we allow the entire world's economy go down the tubes while doing nothing is a very very bad idea. The market will not correct itself this is the first time we've seen this type of economic downfall so everything is not just going to work itself out without government interference.

But one major issue that I depart on Obama with is the ideas his economic team is putting forth in providing financial assistance to the banks without imposing stricter regulation, tougher criminal laws on white collar crime, and requiring that some of these bank CEOs be outright fired.

What do you expect the government to do write you a check every month to pay your bills seriously the Stimulus Bill is meant for job creations throughout different sectors which to mean is significantly more meaningful then being given a few extra dollars at tax time.

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by bitty41:

Let me ask you this question do you believe that the Economic Crisis was created over the last month and a half? And what solutions would you offer?

No.

I have an idea. Lets let the banks go bankrupt, let unprofitable businesses fail, let people who made poor decisions lose their homes. Its called capitalism. Let the market correct itself. Once the banks go bankrupt the goverment should step in to make sure that whatever new banks buy up the remains dont grow so big that their failure means the downfall of the American economy.

If there has to be some stimulus package, how about it goes to the American consumer. $13 a week. Unreal

Your suggestion is borderline child-like. Right now every major bank is insolvent which means that their liabilities exceeds their assets. Without the Federal Government stepping in the entire system will collapse not only the American economy but the global economy as well. So I repeat for you to suggest that we allow the entire world's economy go down the tubes while doing nothing is a very very bad idea. The market will not correct itself this is the first time we've seen this type of economic downfall so everything is not just going to work itself out without government interference.

But one major issue that I depart on Obama with is the ideas his economic team is putting forth in providing financial assistance to the banks without imposing stricter regulation, tougher criminal laws on white collar crime, and requiring that some of these bank CEOs be outright fired.

What do you expect the government to do write you a check every month to pay your bills seriously the Stimulus Bill is meant for job creations throughout different sectors which to mean is significantly more meaningful then being given a few extra dollars at tax time.

Bitty why do you always feel the need to ridicule? My suggestion is borderline childlike? Dont act as if you are some leading economist, or have even more than a rudimentary understanding of economic principles.

My point was less that we should do absolutely nothing than that we are doing too much. I understand that some of these banks are too big now to let go under. But what are we doing to keep this from happening again? Why arent we demanding that these banks split up? Instead the bigger banks are just buying up the smaller ones, becoming even larger and "important" to the American economy.

Youre defending this bill, so full of garbage that the fact that its even called a stimulus bill is a joke. So when should we see this bill working? Almost a trillion dollars, and so far nothing! Maybe the four wheel drive trails, the dog parks, and the volcano monitering project will really help. Lol.

imho - we, the american people, are as much to blame as anyone else....afterall, we were the ones buying homes we knew we couldnt afford and falsifying income statements that were never reconciled by the banks that lent us the money to buy these homes.....yes, banks, wall street and big business were wrong and certainly made it easy for the consumer to get credit in a not so above board manner, but it only became reality when we, the people bought into the scheme and took a bite of that apple.

so dont be so quick to throw all your blame at those ceo's, wall st, republicans, etc. both dems and republicans are to blame here. yes, like bitty said, bush's administration definitely helped fuel the issue but this has more to do with american greed than politics...we let our greed get the best of us and the rest is history.

and, the gov't is not solely the answer to solving this problem. we all need to be smarter and more respectful of being americans. we used to be envied and a role model for the world to emulate, now we're looked at as egotistical, greedy and selfish. i mean c'mon, just look at the % of obese people in the US compared to anywhere else, we are the most overindulgent, narcissistic country in the world. for as great a country we are and the morals we stand for when catastrophe's bring us together (there was no beating being an american on sept 12th, 2001 just seeing how this country got together and put bulls*it aside for a common cause) i think its pathetic where we have sunk.

as for this stimulus package, unlike the first one where we signed off on a package and no-one knew where the money went...and they still dont, b/c no controls were in place - great curtain call mr bush....we need to ensure that the companies who get these funds and use them for something other than what they are meant for are arrested and prosecuted. there have to be controls, there have to be consequences.....like the bank of america ceo who took a private jet to the congressional hearings where he was one of 13 lambasted for excess spending....nice work moron, take a lesson from diddy and fly coach.

the economy is one big mess and no one is sure how to fix it. so, anyone's theory can be correct...who knows what the right answer is, but it starts w us as americans needing to wisen-up as a whole and stop trying to get something for nothing all the time. if you make $50,000, then buy a home that you can afford off that income.

its like in bball, i saw an interesting article the other day about the state of the league and guys living paycheck to paycheck - can you imagine making millions and millions of $$'s each year and living paycheck to paycheck? thats just assonine.

my 2 cents, feel free to make change if you wish.

Posted by jimimou:

imho - we, the american people, are as much to blame as anyone else....afterall, we were the ones buying homes we knew we couldnt afford and falsifying income statements that were never reconciled by the banks that lent us the money to buy these homes.....yes, banks, wall street and big business were wrong and certainly made it easy for the consumer to get credit in a not so above board manner, but it only became reality when we, the people bought into the scheme and took a bite of that apple.

so dont be so quick to throw all your blame at those ceo's, wall st, republicans, etc. both dems and republicans are to blame here. yes, like bitty said, bush's administration definitely helped fuel the issue but this has more to do with american greed than politics...we let our greed get the best of us and the rest is history.

and, the gov't is not solely the answer to solving this problem. we all need to be smarter and more respectful of being americans. we used to be envied and a role model for the world to emulate, now we're looked at as egotistical, greedy and selfish. i mean c'mon, just look at the % of obese people in the US compared to anywhere else, we are the most overindulgent, narcissistic country in the world. for as great a country we are and the morals we stand for when catastrophe's bring us together (there was no beating being an american on sept 12th, 2001 just seeing how this country got together and put bulls*it aside for a common cause) i think its pathetic where we have sunk.

as for this stimulus package, unlike the first one where we signed off on a package and no-one knew where the money went...and they still dont, b/c no controls were in place - great curtain call mr bush....we need to ensure that the companies who get these funds and use them for something other than what they are meant for are arrested and prosecuted. there have to be controls, there have to be consequences.....like the bank of america ceo who took a private jet to the congressional hearings where he was one of 13 lambasted for excess spending....nice work moron, take a lesson from diddy and fly coach.

the economy is one big mess and no one is sure how to fix it. so, anyone's theory can be correct...who knows what the right answer is, but it starts w us as americans needing to wisen-up as a whole and stop trying to get something for nothing all the time. if you make $50,000, then buy a home that you can afford off that income.

its like in bball, i saw an interesting article the other day about the state of the league and guys living paycheck to paycheck - can you imagine making millions and millions of $$'s each year and living paycheck to paycheck? thats just assonine.

my 2 cents, feel free to make change if you wish.

Great post

Posted by izybx:

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by bitty41:

Let me ask you this question do you believe that the Economic Crisis was created over the last month and a half? And what solutions would you offer?

No.

I have an idea. Lets let the banks go bankrupt, let unprofitable businesses fail, let people who made poor decisions lose their homes. Its called capitalism. Let the market correct itself. Once the banks go bankrupt the goverment should step in to make sure that whatever new banks buy up the remains dont grow so big that their failure means the downfall of the American economy.

If there has to be some stimulus package, how about it goes to the American consumer. $13 a week. Unreal

Your suggestion is borderline child-like. Right now every major bank is insolvent which means that their liabilities exceeds their assets. Without the Federal Government stepping in the entire system will collapse not only the American economy but the global economy as well. So I repeat for you to suggest that we allow the entire world's economy go down the tubes while doing nothing is a very very bad idea. The market will not correct itself this is the first time we've seen this type of economic downfall so everything is not just going to work itself out without government interference.

But one major issue that I depart on Obama with is the ideas his economic team is putting forth in providing financial assistance to the banks without imposing stricter regulation, tougher criminal laws on white collar crime, and requiring that some of these bank CEOs be outright fired.

What do you expect the government to do write you a check every month to pay your bills seriously the Stimulus Bill is meant for job creations throughout different sectors which to mean is significantly more meaningful then being given a few extra dollars at tax time.

Bitty why do you always feel the need to ridicule? My suggestion is borderline childlike? Dont act as if you are some leading economist, or have even more than a rudimentary understanding of economic principles.

My point was less that we should do absolutely nothing than that we are doing too much. I understand that some of these banks are too big now to let go under. But what are we doing to keep this from happening again? Why arent we demanding that these banks split up? Instead the bigger banks are just buying up the smaller ones, becoming even larger and "important" to the American economy.

Youre defending this bill, so full of garbage that the fact that its even called a stimulus bill is a joke. So when should we see this bill working? Almost a trillion dollars, and so far nothing! Maybe the four wheel drive trails, the dog parks, and the volcano monitering project will really help. Lol.

For you to suggest that Federal Government do nothing in economic crisis of this magnitude which in original post you did, is absurd. You don't need a PHD in Economics to realize this.
Now we can debate as to how the Feds should assist or how that assistance should be done. I wasn't trying to make the point that oooh I'm smarter then you or that I know more about this Economic crisis but again I think the average person would realize that doing nothing would have dire consequences for the global economy.


See this is what I mean you're not even following your own argument. One side your arguing for allowing Capitalism to take it's course and against the evil N word Nationalism but now your arguing for government intervention with the banks. Which is it allow the market to take it's natural course and crash or have the Federal Government step in and hopefully prop the market up until it recovers?

A Stimulus Bill of this magnitude is never going to make everyone happy some people are arguing that it's not enough while others are arguing that it's too much. However there was no legitimate alternative to this bill. A Stimulus Bill was needed and we won't see the affects positive or negative for at least a few years so instead of crowing about it why not allow this thing to play out before denouncing it.

Seriously your bitching after a month and a half of this Presidency Obama he's the President not Jesus Christ/Muhammad/Buddha/super hero all wrapped up in one! It wouldn't matter if it was John McCain or anyone else from the Republican Party this crisis would still be here and will probably continue best case scenario a few years regardless of whose running the country.




[Edited by - bitty41 on 03-03-2009 6:42 PM]

jimimou,

Your post made me think of this article

Twenty-five people at the heart of the meltdown ...

The worst economic turmoil since the Great Depression is not a natural phenomenon but a man-made disaster in which we all played a part. In the second part of a week-long series looking behind the slump, Guardian City editor Julia Finch picks out the individuals who have led us into the current crisis

The American public
There's no escaping the fact: politicians might have teed up the financial system and failed to police it properly and Wall Street's greedy bankers might have got carried away with the riches they could generate, but if millions of Americans had just realised they were borrowing more than they could repay then we would not be in this mess. The British public got just as carried away. We are the credit junkies of Europe and many of our problems could easily have been avoided if we had been more sensible and just said no.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/...

Bitty what you dont realize is Im not blaming your Messiah for the economy. Im blaming the government in general. I understand that its blasphemous to dare question The One, but again please understand that Im not blaming the guy.

How long do I have to wait for this "stimulus" bill to play out before I am allowed to complain about it? A month? A year? All I see is hundereds of billions of dollars being stolen from the public in the name "stimulus". The democrats will not dare to question Obama and the Republicans lack the will to do so. When will enough be enough? When the second and third stimulus bills are sucked down the tubes will you than realize that our government is too devided and incompetent to handle such vast sums of money? Or will you just sit there and deride those who dare question what our government is doing?

It's turning out the US economy boon was nothing more than one big Ponzi scheme itself. It's been exposed and it's correcting itself right down to the actual money that exists.

Meanwhile, you can no more turn a nation in crisis around in a split second than you can turn a pro-basketball team around in a split second.

It takes time to un-do wrongs, expose the problems, and correct them, and then see the results take hold. We're going to be a mess for YEARS. You don't flip a switch and see the DOW go back up 6,000 points over night. It's just not going to happen. Just like you don't make one trade for our Knicks and find us in the 2009 NBA Finals.

Unrealistic. Our country is also not done tanking. It's not over. It's got another good big crash left in it IMO until we start climbing back up from the ashes.

These bailouts are akin to taping a life vest to the titanic. Not the best idea out there. Bail out the people not the corporations that failed them. The American way used to be a corporation failed and a new one took it's place and rose high. Not anymore I guess.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/opinio...

Decade at Bernie’s

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 15, 2009

By now everyone knows the sad tale of Bernard Madoff’s duped investors. They looked at their statements and thought they were rich. But then, one day, they discovered to their horror that their supposed wealth was a figment of someone else’s imagination.

Unfortunately, that’s a pretty good metaphor for what happened to America as a whole in the first decade of the 21st century.

Last week the Federal Reserve released the results of the latest Survey of Consumer Finances, a triennial report on the assets and liabilities of American households. The bottom line is that there has been basically no wealth creation at all since the turn of the millennium: the net worth of the average American household, adjusted for inflation, is lower now than it was in 2001.

At one level this should come as no surprise. For most of the last decade America was a nation of borrowers and spenders, not savers. The personal savings rate dropped from 9 percent in the 1980s to 5 percent in the 1990s, to just 0.6 percent from 2005 to 2007, and household debt grew much faster than personal income. Why should we have expected our net worth to go up?

Yet until very recently Americans believed they were getting richer, because they received statements saying that their houses and stock portfolios were appreciating in value faster than their debts were increasing. And if the belief of many Americans that they could count on capital gains forever sounds naïve, it’s worth remembering just how many influential voices — notably in right-leaning publications like The Wall Street Journal, Forbes and National Review — promoted that belief, and ridiculed those who worried about low savings and high levels of debt.

Then reality struck, and it turned out that the worriers had been right all along. The surge in asset values had been an illusion — but the surge in debt had been all too real.

So now we’re in trouble — deeper trouble, I think, than most people realize even now. And I’m not just talking about the dwindling band of forecasters who still insist that the economy will snap back any day now.

For this is a broad-based mess. Everyone talks about the problems of the banks, which are indeed in even worse shape than the rest of the system. But the banks aren’t the only players with too much debt and too few assets; the same description applies to the private sector as a whole.

And as the great American economist Irving Fisher pointed out in the 1930s, the things people and companies do when they realize they have too much debt tend to be self-defeating when everyone tries to do them at the same time. Attempts to sell assets and pay off debt deepen the plunge in asset prices, further reducing net worth. Attempts to save more translate into a collapse of consumer demand, deepening the economic slump.

Are policy makers ready to do what it takes to break this vicious circle? In principle, yes. Government officials understand the issue: we need to “contain what is a very damaging and potentially deflationary spiral,” says Lawrence Summers, a top Obama economic adviser.

In practice, however, the policies currently on offer don’t look adequate to the challenge. The fiscal stimulus plan, while it will certainly help, probably won’t do more than mitigate the economic side effects of debt deflation. And the much-awaited announcement of the bank rescue plan left everyone confused rather than reassured.

There’s hope that the bank rescue will eventually turn into something stronger. It has been interesting to watch the idea of temporary bank nationalization move from the fringe to mainstream acceptance, with even Republicans like Senator Lindsey Graham conceding that it may be necessary. But even if we eventually do what’s needed on the bank front, that will solve only part of the problem.

If you want to see what it really takes to boot the economy out of a debt trap, look at the large public works program, otherwise known as World War II, that ended the Great Depression. The war didn’t just lead to full employment. It also led to rapidly rising incomes and substantial inflation, all with virtually no borrowing by the private sector. By 1945 the government’s debt had soared, but the ratio of private-sector debt to G.D.P. was only half what it had been in 1940. And this low level of private debt helped set the stage for the great postwar boom.

Since nothing like that is on the table, or seems likely to get on the table any time soon, it will take years for families and firms to work off the debt they ran up so blithely. The odds are that the legacy of our time of illusion — our decade at Bernie’s — will be a long, painful slump.

New Yorkers, and Americans in general, have been spending more than they can afford and haven't been saving their money for long rainy days like these. This recession may force people to be less impulsive and more responsible with their money.

The economic crash is multi-facet but American consumption is at the heart of the matter.

After the dot com boom fell the housing market bubble began to rise. Too many Americans we're using the equity in their homes to finance their spending. This was on top of the debt that already existed. Because prior to the economic crash the average American household was 20% more in debt then what they earned on a yearly basis. The markets crashed massive lay-offs commenced, consumers stop spending, and this all led to massive foreclosures. Granted this is just a very bare bones explanation but too many Americans we're living way beyond their means and unfortunately wall street banked on this American consumerism. The false prosperity created many overnight millionaires sometimes billionaires but it was all based on this false economy. Because consumerism accounts for 70% of our economy; the same consumerism which is heavily facilitated through credit not actual resources.

What's the next step?


Does the Federal Government wash their hands of these banks and provide no more capital allow the chips fall where they may or does the government nationalize them? But if we allow some of these banks to go under then how will this play with our foreign trading partners some of which own a great deal of our debt. On the flip side how much more money can you throw at a dying bank?


How do you change this lifestyle of living well beyond our means? Have Americans finally gotten their wake-up calls or is this living well beyond on our means the only way some Americans can maintain a stable living situation. Putting things in this perspective if I'm married with two children think about what my family's expenses would be to maintain a modest three bedroom home, health insurance, education costs, other necessities such as food, transportation, child care etc. Sure there was many people who had outrageous spending habits and we're just downright irresponsible when it came their consumption. But what about the other type of Americans who were just trying maintain a decent living situation.


How do we restore faith in the stock market? I think at this point most Americans would rather put their money in a coffee can under the beds rather then invest in Wall Street.


Finally, the Obama administration has pissed off both sides some Liberals are ready to call him Bush 2 already lol and we all can use our imagination to figure out what the Conservatives think about the Obama administration policies. IMO his economic team is basically just repackaging the failed policies of previous administrations so on that front I think there is still a great deal work needed. Hopefully the Stimulus Bill can bring about a better and more diversified job market. Revamping our infrastructure, building high speed trains, the broadband initiative, investing in scientific research, and the tax incentives to spur energy savings and green jobs are steps in the right direction.

So I think one thing is very clear this economic crisis is going to be a long and difficult journey.

It took the last 8 years to tear down the economy; it's gonna take a lot more than 6 weeks to rebuild it no matter what our government does.

Posted by Bonn1997:

It took the last 8 years to tear down the economy; it's gonna take a lot more than 6 weeks to rebuild it no matter what our government does.

close thread.

Izybx, the reason Bitty was scornful of your post is because your proposal of allowing the downturn to proceed until it manages to correct itself is extremely unrealistic. In fact, the consequences to such an action would be horrific, catastrophic to the greatest extent.

Right now, you are concerned that the Stimulus package is placing a great burden on the population as a whole, taking money out of your pockets to shore up the banks. Of course you would rather the fat-cat arrogant banks take the fall so that you can be spared from the extravagant taxes being demanded of you.

Consider this. To allow the banks, financial markets and credit lenders to go under would be the equivalent of burning all your cash, your house and your car. When banks fail, everone loses their money. Do you have a savngs account? A job? A car loan? A mortgage? All of those things would dissappear, as the banks reclaim every single thing they have leins against in an effort to reduce their deficits. Your employer would lose his stock and cashflow. You would be forced to live on the street. Food would of course be priceless, as the banks reclaim the factories and fields that the agriculture business used to leverage better cashflow. Fashion would become non-existent. Who can spend money on clothes when you cant pay for food, let alone a roof over your head? Apocalypse is just the start.

To say that you are hard-done-by because you are feeling the strain of the recession is small-minded in the extreme. This isnt patriotism, nationalism, favouritism, socialism, communism, capitalism, democracy or any other kind of life-style or creed. This is the facts of life. The government is the last line of defense against an ill of our own making, for better or worse. In essence, wehat they are doing right now is organising society into a responsible, mature response to the problem. Taxes is the way that you share the pain equally among everyone. The alternative is unimaginable. The end of the world as we know it.

Do you honestly think the is a choice here, stimulus package or no stmulus pckage? Theres no choice. Each country must to what it has to do to survive. And dont missunderstand me here, we ARE talking about survival here.

Feel free to complain. This recession hurts bad and it will for a while. But understand that governments WILL do what needs to be done. Noone will like it. Noone will like THEM. But noone said governance was easy. Its a crap decision the government has to make. Take money out of their constituences pockets to help the fools who f**ked up in the first place. But they have to do it. They have to, because the alternative is too terrible to imagine.

Posted by firefly:

Izybx, the reason Bitty was scornful of your post is because your proposal of allowing the downturn to proceed until it manages to correct itself is extremely unrealistic. In fact, the consequences to such an action would be horrific, catastrophic to the greatest extent.

Right now, you are concerned that the Stimulus package is placing a great burden on the population as a whole, taking money out of your pockets to shore up the banks. Of course you would rather the fat-cat arrogant banks take the fall so that you can be spared from the extravagant taxes being demanded of you.

Consider this. To allow the banks, financial markets and credit lenders to go under would be the equivalent of burning all your cash, your house and your car. When banks fail, everone loses their money. Do you have a savngs account? A job? A car loan? A mortgage? All of those things would dissappear, as the banks reclaim every single thing they have leins against in an effort to reduce their deficits. Your employer would lose his stock and cashflow. You would be forced to live on the street. Food would of course be priceless, as the banks reclaim the factories and fields that the agriculture business used to leverage better cashflow. Fashion would become non-existent. Who can spend money on clothes when you cant pay for food, let alone a roof over your head? Apocalypse is just the start.

To say that you are hard-done-by because you are feeling the strain of the recession is small-minded in the extreme. This isnt patriotism, nationalism, favouritism, socialism, communism, capitalism, democracy or any other kind of life-style or creed. This is the facts of life. The government is the last line of defense against an ill of our own making, for better or worse. In essence, wehat they are doing right now is organising society into a responsible, mature response to the problem. Taxes is the way that you share the pain equally among everyone. The alternative is unimaginable. The end of the world as we know it.

Do you honestly think the is a choice here, stimulus package or no stmulus pckage? Theres no choice. Each country must to what it has to do to survive. And dont missunderstand me here, we ARE talking about survival here.

Feel free to complain. This recession hurts bad and it will for a while. But understand that governments WILL do what needs to be done. Noone will like it. Noone will like THEM. But noone said governance was easy. Its a crap decision the government has to make. Take money out of their constituences pockets to help the fools who f**ked up in the first place. But they have to do it. They have to, because the alternative is too terrible to imagine.

hit the nail on the head

Izzy,

From a pure standpoint letting the markets do their thing is perfectly natural and perhaps the healthiest way of giving the economy the high colonic it needs.

Problem is we all work on "theory" here and intervention is also a part of the equation.

The human suffering that would occur to weed out the economy is really too much a price to pay. The ugly side of all this is a mob mentality that would need to lay blame. Right now its "Fat cat bankers", then the Lawyers, then the Jews, then the Blacks, then the immigrants, then the gay's, etc etc.

Bottom line is we have never been here before in the this era of technology, velocity, and global population. Also, free markets reign over soviet block planned economies and before that colonial monarch's whose ecnomies were very different than we have now.

So lets take a deep breath and pay our taxes, save our less fortunate brothers and perhaps at the same time we save ourselves.

Government is not perfect. This problem took many years to create and still needs time to solve.

Posted by Nalod:

Izzy,

From a pure standpoint letting the markets do their thing is perfectly natural and perhaps the healthiest way of giving the economy the high colonic it needs.

Problem is we all work on "theory" here and intervention is also a part of the equation.

The human suffering that would occur to weed out the economy is really too much a price to pay. The ugly side of all this is a mob mentality that would need to lay blame. Right now its "Fat cat bankers", then the Lawyers, then the Jews, then the Blacks, then the immigrants, then the gay's, etc etc.

Bottom line is we have never been here before in the this era of technology, velocity, and global population. Also, free markets reign over soviet block planned economies and before that colonial monarch's whose ecnomies were very different than we have now.

So lets take a deep breath and pay our taxes, save our less fortunate brothers and perhaps at the same time we save ourselves.

Government is not perfect. This problem took many years to create and still needs time to solve.

Good stuff.


Another thing. It was mentioned that "nothing has happened" since the stimulus package's have been in place. I would point out that that is the sign of success. There's been no runs on banks, millions of Americans are still employed and the banks arent insolvent enough to foreclose on all their mortgages.

Personally, I think that what the UK government have been doing is very smart. Taking over the banks (or becoming majority shareholders) should in theory give them more control, especially over future regulatory changes and with the government owning the banks, foreclosure is not an option. The government realizes its better for the country as a whole to go bankrupt - shocking as that sounds - than for financial institutions to announce the losses of everyones savings and mortgages. It may not make sense from a capitalism standpoint - which I am a great proponent of - , but I would argue that this isnt a long-term power maneuver, its a short-term neccessity.