Knicks · Knicks Include Galo in latest offer (page 9)

Consider this bizarre statement from Carmelo I read in Hahn's Newsday article this morning:

"In anything that I do business-wise, and I look at this as a business right now, I would love to sit down with Mr Prokhorov, with Mr. Dolan, whatever team that the Denver Nuggets send me to...look them in the eye and see what the future holds."

How funny is that line? I mean talk about contradictory..First off it confirms that he's most certainly looking at this as a business i.e. top priority, I gotta make my money no matter what..But then, mid sentence, he switches gears and suddenly sounds interested in the direction his future team will be going once he gets there..How can you possibly have it both ways?? Either you want your money/wanna change addresses and don't really care what state the future roster's in knowing full well it's gonna cost your future team an arm & a leg to get you in terms of players, assets and cap room OR right from the beginning, you make it clear that team X is the only team you're interested in going to which therefore would limit the amount that team would have to bid for your services..Sit down and talk to them about what the future holds???? Is he kidding me? I'll tell you what the future holds my boy -- it'll be a top heavy roster, where we have limited cap, limited resources and the depth of the roster cut short..Oh yeah, we still need rebounding, a legit C that can actually play and now all of a sudden a PG after we cut your buddy Billups loose..How's that for team direction, Melo? Any other questions?? Man, what an annoying, hypocritical thing to read.. I love that we'll also have to take on Renaldo Balkman's salary which amounts to $3.35M over the next 2 full seasons..Love how DEN snuck that in there..First off, Balkman can't play; second, we're already taking on Melo's bloated contract, now you mean to tell me I have to take on more future salary with Ro Balkman??? F outta here brah..This shouldn't be part of the deal.

Melo didn't play his cards right here. He could've made this a much better situation for us then it turned out to be if he just would've had the balls to put his foot down and fought harder for what he really wanted and actually kept his future team's interests in perspective. Doesn't look like he's even considering the latter point -- he looks all one-way to me now as we approach the deadline..Talking about what the future holds?? I'd be embarrassed to say such a thing, knowing what the Knicks will have to part with in order to get me. He could've curbed the demand a little if he chose to present his case a little differently to Denver. It's clear to me now that he never did.

I think some people are missing the forest for the trees on this deal, seduced by the fantasy that 'Melo was going to be available as a FA this off season (he never REALLY was) or that Denver would ever accept a lopsided deal in the Knicks favor (they would not).

Some factors to consider:

1.) This wasn't last season and it isn't the 2012 off season. The uncertainly of the CBA and 'Melo's unique position IS a significant factor, always has been. There isn't a NBA writer who's provided ANY indication during this entire process that the extension hasn't been a top priority since day 1.

We can rationalize all we like that Anthony MIGHT not lose that much if he goes to free agency, and that there probably won't be a franchise tag, or that he should be willing to accept less ala the Miami guys, but this is just fan wish-listing.

It's never been a realistic option.

Knock 'Melo for that if you want, but still you have to eliminate free agency as a legitimate option open to the Knicks in any fair evaluation of the true options open to the Knicks.

2.) Denver could never accept what would essentially be a Chandler (a young yes but third tier, immediate RFA with questionable injury history) for Anthony swap, no matter how much "leverage" the Knicks held and Anthony exerted. This was always a fan-fantasy that was never going to occur.

3.) Chauncey Billups has been outplaying Raymond Felton for going on 3 months now. Yes, he's older, and not the same penetrating player (Melo takes over the break-the-defense-down guy anyway), but he HAS been running the league's highest scoring offense and shooting the ball from the perimeter with ridiculous accuracy since December (look up his splits).

And his contract (if extended) does NOT prohibit the Knicks from signing other players next off season (Knicks wouldn't have had any space with Felton either) and in fact will serve as a larger expiring NEXT off season than Felton would have.

If Knicks see a path to Williams or Paul (which would be entirely different situations than 'Melo because they can't sign extensions before the new CBA, they'll have more leverage to be traded to where they want), then Billups serves as a full-on cap matching expiring).

Mosgov/Douglas/Turiaf (expiring)/Billups (expiring) for Paul/Okafor a year from now? Just throwing it out there...

4.) Chandler (who was earmarked gone anyway) + Gallinari or Fields for Anthony is entirely equitable and if you look what the Nets were willing to give up and project what other teams might had the playing field be open, is not that steep a price.

5.) This deal, like the Stoudemire deal, is part of a larger whole, and ALSO has to be evaluated as PART of a process.

Stoudemire puts the Knicks first in line for 'Melo. Does 'Melo put them at the top of the conversation fro the 2012 class?

This deal, if it goes down, ALSO immediately creates two roster spaces - three if the Knicks let Mason Jr. go now that he's not needed for cap filler in a deal. And it looks like there may be a strong market of players who may be bought out after the deadline (Murphy, Hamilton?)

Knicks will likely be in position to add players that will make them deeper going into the playoffs.

Plus there is Azubuike. If he's not also in the deal he may also be used to bring in a player for a team looking for a expiring and cap relief, or who knows, perhaps with a whole year of recovery, the Knicks can bring him back next year (they have his Bird Rights remember and if the deal goes down, won't need his cap space).

Either way if the deal goes down as reported, the Knicks roster won't be "gutted". I'm not sure where anyone is coming from with that.

Yes, it would be GREAT to fantasize about Gallinari (or Chandler) being the Knicks' perennial '6th man of year' guy off the bench, but if this boils down to Chandler and Gallinari OR 'Melo extends with Denver or goes to the Nets, I don't know how you don't make that deal.

This is not bad deal for the Knicks. I still don't see how their gutting their team by doing this trade, as many media outlets have reported. Feltons PG fpr Billups PG. Gallo SF for Carmelo SF. Curry = Expiring contract is gone regardless. AR - Stuck on the bench - getting traded anyway. Wilson Chandler RFA. The Knicks would also be getting a few players back from the Nuggets to make the salary cap work. IMHO - pull the trigger and do a happy dance if this deal happens.

If we can close this deal this weekend, then that leaves Donnie a few days to pull off another deal to fill in missing pieces to the roster. Maybe Azu's expiring and health insured contract for a back-up PG or a defensive center? or trade for someone like Carl Landry at PF? etc. ?

Knickoftime wrote:I think some people are missing the forest for the trees on this deal, seduced by the fantasy that 'Melo was going to be available as a FA this off season (he never REALLY was) or that Denver would ever accept a lopsided deal in the Knicks favor (they would not).

Some factors to consider:

1.) This wasn't last season and it isn't the 2012 off season. The uncertainly of the CBA and 'Melo's unique position IS a significant factor, always has been. There isn't a NBA writer who's provided ANY indication during this entire process that the extension hasn't been a top priority since day 1.

We can rationalize all we like that Anthony MIGHT not lose that much if he goes to free agency, and that there probably won't be a franchise tag, or that he should be willing to accept less ala the Miami guys, but this is just fan wish-listing.

It's never been a realistic option.

Knock 'Melo for that if you want, but still you have to eliminate free agency as a legitimate option open to the Knicks in any fair evaluation of the true options open to the Knicks.

2.) Denver could never accept what would essentially be a Chandler (a young yes but third tier, immediate RFA with questionable injury history) for Anthony swap, no matter how much "leverage" the Knicks held and Anthony exerted. This was always a fan-fantasy that was never going to occur.

3.) Chauncey Billups has been outplaying Raymond Felton for going on 3 months now. Yes, he's older, and not the same penetrating player (Melo takes over the break-the-defense-down guy anyway), but he HAS been running the league's highest scoring offense and shooting the ball from the perimeter with ridiculous accuracy since December (look up his splits).

And his contract (if extended) does NOT prohibit the Knicks from signing other players next off season (Knicks wouldn't have had any space with Felton either) and in fact will serve as a larger expiring NEXT off season than Felton would have.

If Knicks see a path to Williams or Paul (which would be entirely different situations than 'Melo because they can't sign extensions before the new CBA, they'll have more leverage to be traded to where they want), then Billups serves as a full-on cap matching expiring).

Mosgov/Douglas/Turiaf (expiring)/Billups (expiring) for Paul/Okafor a year from now? Just throwing it out there...

4.) Chandler (who was earmarked gone anyway) + Gallinari or Fields for Anthony is entirely equitable and if you look what the Nets were willing to give up and project what other teams might had the playing field be open, is not that steep a price.

5.) This deal, like the Stoudemire deal, is part of a larger whole, and ALSO has to be evaluated as PART of a process.

Stoudemire puts the Knicks first in line for 'Melo. Does 'Melo put them at the top of the conversation fro the 2012 class?

This deal, if it goes down, ALSO immediately creates two roster spaces - three if the Knicks let Mason Jr. go now that he's not needed for cap filler in a deal. And it looks like there may be a strong market of players who may be bought out after the deadline (Murphy, Hamilton?)

Knicks will likely be in position to add players that will make them deeper going into the playoffs.

Plus there is Azubuike. If he's not also in the deal he may also be used to bring in a player for a team looking for a expiring and cap relief, or who knows, perhaps with a whole year of recovery, the Knicks can bring him back next year (they have his Bird Rights remember and if the deal goes down, won't need his cap space).

Either way if the deal goes down as reported, the Knicks roster won't be "gutted". I'm not sure where anyone is coming from with that.

Yes, it would be GREAT to fantasize about Gallinari (or Chandler) being the Knicks' perennial '6th man of year' guy off the bench, but if this boils down to Chandler and Gallinari OR 'Melo extends with Denver or goes to the Nets, I don't know how you don't make that deal.

Excellent post...

This idea that Billups wont fit into MDA's system is not accurate when you consider he's the point for the run-and-gun Nuggs. But to humour those who think Billups is better suited for a slow-dwon, grind-it-out half court game, well, doesn't the game slow down in the playoffs? Isn't the biggest knock on MDA's system is that it cant work in the playoffs? Well, now we have half court players (Billups and Melo) who can get thier shot at any time when the game slows down.

People are all against of giving them felton, I am all against getting balkman back to us.

I think Melo was always the culprit in terms of this deal dragging out. The day he and his agent narrow the teams down to just one, the deal gets done. We all know he wants no part of NJ. The Knicks have stepped up as he wanted, so now he needs to make it clear that he wants NY and only NY. Get the deal done and everyone is happy.

Except for the Nets!

Ok so we make the trade who exactly are we better then? The Bulls have played much of the season without Boozer and Noah and that core is better than ours. The Heat are still the better team. The Celtics are the best team in the league and with Perkins, KG, Baby Shaq in the playoffs we can't beat them because Amare will be in foul trouble. So we are better than the Hawks a team we are better than already! Awesome deal. Carmelo can get us to the first round of the playoffs a place we are going to be anyway.

Everyone loves shitting on David Lee around here. Amare is a great player, but he is also playing with Felton and Fields and a more mature Chandler and Gallo and we are two games above .500. The Warriors happen to be three games under .500 and Lee missed a large chunk of time and wasn't right after the injury.

And where is this Billups love coming from. He is averaging 5 assists on a team filled with gifted scorers, he shoots it at 41.8% over his career and lets face it the big shot nickname was a gift. Felton has played injured and been run into the ground by the coach. He plays uptempo ball and does a good job of getting people involved. We get older by doing this trade we bring in a guy that wants a 3-year $65 million dollar extension after we gut the entire team.

Felton
Dec 17.8pts 10.2 ass
Jan 15pts 8.7ass
Feb 16pts 10ass

Billups
18.9pts 6ass
16pts 4.9ass
17.9pts 5.9ass

Silverfuel wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Gotta love it. Same people who are blasting the Knicks for this proposed trade will be the same ones blasting the Knicks if Melo goes to the Nyets.

And they were against signing Amare and letting David Lee walk.

Ohh this is so wrong it's not even funny. Yeah, people wanted to keep Lee, but not for the bigger picture. We all knew it was bound to happen and that was fine, and we all knew Amar'e was better, except at rebounding.

If we do this massive Melo deal, we aren't winning a championship in the 3 and a half years he'll be on contract with us and that's not hate, that's the truth. All we need to do is wait a few freaking months and even if he signs the extension, there will always be other options. Patience is a virtue and Donnie has proven it over and over again and this isn't any different. Melo isn't the savior taking us to the promised land if we give up everything for him. Capspace, assets, pics. That's STUPID.

MS wrote:Ok so we make the trade who exactly are we better then? The Bulls have played much of the season without Boozer and Noah and that core is better than ours. The Heat are still the better team. The Celtics are the best team in the league and with Perkins, KG, Baby Shaq in the playoffs we can't beat them because Amare will be in foul trouble. So we are better than the Hawks a team we are better than already! Awesome deal. Carmelo can get us to the first round of the playoffs a place we are going to be anyway.

Everyone loves shitting on David Lee around here. Amare is a great player, but he is also playing with Felton and Fields and a more mature Chandler and Gallo and we are two games above .500. The Warriors happen to be three games under .500 and Lee missed a large chunk of time and wasn't right after the injury.

And where is this Billups love coming from. He is averaging 5 assists on a team filled with gifted scorers, he shoots it at 41.8% over his career and lets face it the big shot nickname was a gift. Felton has played injured and been run into the ground by the coach. He plays uptempo ball and does a good job of getting people involved. We get older by doing this trade we bring in a guy that wants a 3-year $65 million dollar extension after we gut the entire team.

Felton
Dec 17.8pts 10.2 ass
Jan 15pts 8.7ass
Feb 16pts 10ass

Billups
18.9pts 6ass
16pts 4.9ass
17.9pts 5.9ass

How is this trade gutting the team? Let's see what Billups does in the system and compare numbers at that point.

umynot wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:For me it comes down to no Gallo. Keep him and get Melo then I am happy. Otherwise I say no.

Just the way I feel.

I know some of you haters wil not get it but
I truly think Gallo us the 3rd star we talk about.

I agree 100%

Ditto. I'd rather put in Moz than Gallo, regardless of his 7ft stature.

I think Billups would improve his assists playing with STAT just as Felton benefits from that. IT should boost him between 2-4 extra assists a game. Also we only would give up one more player than we actually wanted to give up. I think it's the best move for our near future. We go from guys that are developing and inconsistent to a current Elite player in the NBA. If Chan and Gallo were consistent the entire year, we would have a much better record.

MS wrote:Ok so we make the trade who exactly are we better then?

The Knicks as presently constituted.

...

The concept that you shouldn't get better if you can't immediately become the best is really misguided.

Who were the Knicks surpassing in the next 3 years without making this deal?

And how exactly?

Knickoftime wrote:

MS wrote:Ok so we make the trade who exactly are we better then?

The Knicks as presently constituted.

...

The concept that you shouldn't get better if you can't immediately become the best is really misguided.

Who were the Knicks surpassing in the next 3 years without making this deal?

And how exactly?

But there is a corollary to that too: you have to be able to get better AFTER that significantly enough to meet your goals of championship.

MS wrote:Ok so we make the trade who exactly are we better then? The Bulls have played much of the season without Boozer and Noah and that core is better than ours. The Heat are still the better team. The Celtics are the best team in the league and with Perkins, KG, Baby Shaq in the playoffs we can't beat them because Amare will be in foul trouble. So we are better than the Hawks a team we are better than already! Awesome deal. Carmelo can get us to the first round of the playoffs a place we are going to be anyway.

Everyone loves shitting on David Lee around here. Amare is a great player, but he is also playing with Felton and Fields and a more mature Chandler and Gallo and we are two games above .500. The Warriors happen to be three games under .500 and Lee missed a large chunk of time and wasn't right after the injury.

And where is this Billups love coming from. He is averaging 5 assists on a team filled with gifted scorers, he shoots it at 41.8% over his career and lets face it the big shot nickname was a gift. Felton has played injured and been run into the ground by the coach. He plays uptempo ball and does a good job of getting people involved. We get older by doing this trade we bring in a guy that wants a 3-year $65 million dollar extension after we gut the entire team.

Felton
Dec 17.8pts 10.2 ass
Jan 15pts 8.7ass
Feb 16pts 10ass

Billups
18.9pts 6ass
16pts 4.9ass
17.9pts 5.9ass

If we dont make this trade and stand pat, and Melo signs with NJ, outline a plan that would make us better than Miami, the celts and Magic.....And please dont hitch your wagon to the, hope and wish to sign Paul or Howard next summer....

Knickoftime wrote:I think some people are missing the forest for the trees on this deal, seduced by the fantasy that 'Melo was going to be available as a FA this off season (he never REALLY was) or that Denver would ever accept a lopsided deal in the Knicks favor (they would not).

Some factors to consider:

1.) This wasn't last season and it isn't the 2012 off season. The uncertainly of the CBA and 'Melo's unique position IS a significant factor, always has been. There isn't a NBA writer who's provided ANY indication during this entire process that the extension hasn't been a top priority since day 1.

We can rationalize all we like that Anthony MIGHT not lose that much if he goes to free agency, and that there probably won't be a franchise tag, or that he should be willing to accept less ala the Miami guys, but this is just fan wish-listing.

It's never been a realistic option.

Knock 'Melo for that if you want, but still you have to eliminate free agency as a legitimate option open to the Knicks in any fair evaluation of the true options open to the Knicks.

2.) Denver could never accept what would essentially be a Chandler (a young yes but third tier, immediate RFA with questionable injury history) for Anthony swap, no matter how much "leverage" the Knicks held and Anthony exerted. This was always a fan-fantasy that was never going to occur.

3.) Chauncey Billups has been outplaying Raymond Felton for going on 3 months now. Yes, he's older, and not the same penetrating player (Melo takes over the break-the-defense-down guy anyway), but he HAS been running the league's highest scoring offense and shooting the ball from the perimeter with ridiculous accuracy since December (look up his splits).

And his contract (if extended) does NOT prohibit the Knicks from signing other players next off season (Knicks wouldn't have had any space with Felton either) and in fact will serve as a larger expiring NEXT off season than Felton would have.

If Knicks see a path to Williams or Paul (which would be entirely different situations than 'Melo because they can't sign extensions before the new CBA, they'll have more leverage to be traded to where they want), then Billups serves as a full-on cap matching expiring).

Mosgov/Douglas/Turiaf (expiring)/Billups (expiring) for Paul/Okafor a year from now? Just throwing it out there...

4.) Chandler (who was earmarked gone anyway) + Gallinari or Fields for Anthony is entirely equitable and if you look what the Nets were willing to give up and project what other teams might had the playing field be open, is not that steep a price.

5.) This deal, like the Stoudemire deal, is part of a larger whole, and ALSO has to be evaluated as PART of a process.

Stoudemire puts the Knicks first in line for 'Melo. Does 'Melo put them at the top of the conversation fro the 2012 class?

This deal, if it goes down, ALSO immediately creates two roster spaces - three if the Knicks let Mason Jr. go now that he's not needed for cap filler in a deal. And it looks like there may be a strong market of players who may be bought out after the deadline (Murphy, Hamilton?)

Knicks will likely be in position to add players that will make them deeper going into the playoffs.

Plus there is Azubuike. If he's not also in the deal he may also be used to bring in a player for a team looking for a expiring and cap relief, or who knows, perhaps with a whole year of recovery, the Knicks can bring him back next year (they have his Bird Rights remember and if the deal goes down, won't need his cap space).

Either way if the deal goes down as reported, the Knicks roster won't be "gutted". I'm not sure where anyone is coming from with that.

Yes, it would be GREAT to fantasize about Gallinari (or Chandler) being the Knicks' perennial '6th man of year' guy off the bench, but if this boils down to Chandler and Gallinari OR 'Melo extends with Denver or goes to the Nets, I don't know how you don't make that deal.

Excellent post. Your points are well-considered and reason for me to think a bit more on why I don't like the taste of this deal. I accept the premise: You've got to give something to get something. I also hadn't really considered the value of Billups' larger expiring next off-season. That could make a big difference in trying to get a talented, young PG.

Allanfan20 wrote:If we do this massive Melo deal, we aren't winning a championship in the 3 and a half years he'll be on contract with us and that's not hate, that's the truth.

All we need to do is wait a few freaking months and even if he signs the extension, there will always be other options.

Such as?

Please be specific.

Most observers feel getting Anthony makes the Knicks more attractive to Paul (particularly) and perhaps even Williams?

And what if the new CBA DOES include a franchise tag?

Knicks aren't lottery bound anytime soon. And they don't even have a 2012 pick. You building a championship team in the next four years with the current team, draft choices in the 20's and role free agents?

Really?

The "other, better options" scenario is open-ended speculation entirely out of the Knicks control that involves fantasizing everything going your way.

Let's look at how things could go wrong:

1.) Franchise tags
2.) Hard(er) cap.
3.) Howard preferring Lakers.
4.) Paul truly wanting to play with 'Melo.
5.) Chandler and Gallinari DON'T get a lot better.

Knicks are BETTER with this deal than without.

That they MIGHT have options to get better than THAT in a year or 2 is pure, unadulterated HOPE.

Leading upto this last week when the PG swap came known almost everyone was OK with giving up two fothe young guys for Melo (Two starters for 1), now if we swap PG's it becomes 3 starters for 2 and everyone is having a cow! I want Gallo to be a knick for ever but let's not fool ourselves about Melo, he is in the top 5 players in the league right now and we need that on this team. Billups may be old, but he is a heck of a point guard and has more leadership qualities than Felton at this point. He is easily good for another 2-3 years and has the experience and the reputation to balance out all the stars on the team.

Silverfuel wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Gotta love it. Same people who are blasting the Knicks for this proposed trade will be the same ones blasting the Knicks if Melo goes to the Nyets.

And they were against signing Amare and letting David Lee walk.

And proudly so on my part (except for letting Lee walk). Nothing against Amare either, as I've explained before.

includong Gallo makes this pointless. Keeping Fields isnt that great. Because 6'7 guys who cant create their own shot are so hard to find. Fields is a great addition but he's so replacable. No body is worries about Fields beating you. Having a 6'10 guy who's shown he can guard opposing PGs and SGs, who can get to the line at will when his shot doesnt fall and has the stretch the defense ability that Gallo has.. THATS no replacable. Sure... he would be a 3rd option and thats OK.

The guy that says we are the Hawks is straight up right. Melo hasnt done anything Joe Johnson hasnt done.. in fact I think JJ has been to the AS game more. Whoop de do.

The way the Knicks make a run at being elite is keeping Gallo, beause he's the guy that when Amare/Melo are struggling or defenses key on them can light it up at any time.

I would rather them trade Fields, Chandler, AR, Curry, Felton and take back some crap contract like Harrington, because Mosgov and Gallo are the hard tro find pieces (skill + size + athleticism) that separate the good teams from the elite.

We will see...