Finestrg wrote:CashMoney wrote:islesfan wrote:The trades have nothing to do with this. The point is that Antoni never gave the kid a chance to play in games and his ability. If he had, maybe the Knicks wouldn't have had to include all of the players that most of you are constantly crying about.
Court time is earned in practice. When AR was given a limited opportunity to open the season he looked lost out there. The Knicks started the season with going to the playoffs as a target and with a 3-8 start how do you continue to play someone who is hurting the team? The answer is you don't which is why AR and TM started riding the pine.
I don't even buy that anymore...Sometimes, for the good of your team present and FUTURE, you give a guy that is that talented a longer leash to grasp what you want him to do..You stick with your superior talent through think and thin..You don't yank the cord outta the wall at the first sign of trouble..Not the way this should've been handled.
The Knicks started 3-8, and they were playing 10 guy rotation that included starting Moz and brining AR off the bench.
Let's extrapolate and you tell me at what point if you were coach that you would have changed the rotation/lineup:
3-8, no.
6-16?
9-24?
12-32?
15-40?
18-48?
21-56?
What would have been your tipping point?
martin wrote:Finestrg wrote:CashMoney wrote:islesfan wrote:The trades have nothing to do with this. The point is that Antoni never gave the kid a chance to play in games and his ability. If he had, maybe the Knicks wouldn't have had to include all of the players that most of you are constantly crying about.
Court time is earned in practice. When AR was given a limited opportunity to open the season he looked lost out there. The Knicks started the season with going to the playoffs as a target and with a 3-8 start how do you continue to play someone who is hurting the team? The answer is you don't which is why AR and TM started riding the pine.
I don't even buy that anymore...Sometimes, for the good of your team present and FUTURE, you give a guy that is that talented a longer leash to grasp what you want him to do..You stick with your superior talent through think and thin..You don't yank the cord outta the wall at the first sign of trouble..Not the way this should've been handled.
The Knicks started 3-8, and they were playing 10 guy rotation that included starting Moz and brining AR off the bench.
Let's extrapolate and you tell me at what point if you were coach that you would have changed the rotation/lineup:
3-8, no.
6-16?
9-24?
12-32?
15-40?
18-48?
21-56?
What would have been your tipping point?
Why do you look at not playing AR as the sole key solution to the turnaround? I don't..Piss poor argument if you ask me...Nobody was playing well early on --- Amar'e, Felton..
MS wrote:Here is the issue Billups (14MM) Melo (18MM) Balkman (1MM) That's 32MM tied up in two guys that are below average defenders.
Chandler (9M) Gallo (4M) Moz (3M) AR (3M) Felton (8M)
That's 30MM
At 6'8, 6'10, 6'11, 7,0'
You win in this leaguye with size. All of those guys were going to get better as will Tony and Laundry. STAT needs the floor spaced to be effective he also needs rest.
Melo isn't getting better our guys would have. For AR not to play was a joke. Turiaf is up and down all the time and Jefferies is terrible.
The Knicks needed to be patient and get some playoff experience and grow as a team. There would have always been trades that could have been done to improve this team. The Melo trade made us worse at every position. If Mike sticks with guys like Duhon and Jefferies he should have been good enough to define a role for the kid and use him effectively as a coach. As is we gave away the house for someone that can't win a game by himself against the Cavs, Pacers or Pistons.
You're assuming the Knicks pick up Billups' deal for $14M next year. Chandler is going to wind up with a deal in the $9-10M per year range but you're also fogetting that Felton would be an UFA the following year with Gallo being a RFA at the same time. So now the Knicks give Chandler $9M they'd have to give Gallo a similar deal the following year. Now you're talking about having $18M+ tied up in Chandler and Gallo. Now what does Felton resign for after two year of 17PPG and 8 APG? Certainy not they $7.5 he signed for. Let's call his number at $10M per year. Now you have 28M tied up in Felton, Chandler & Gallo.
Depending on what the Knicks due with the roster this summer, as of now, the only players they have commitments to for the 2012/2013 season are STAT, Melo, Balkman and a team option on TD. That's a little over $41M in total. IMHO, that's a heck of a lot better than having over $50M committed and no Melo.
islesfan wrote:The trades have nothing to do with this. The point is that Antoni never gave the kid a chance to play in games and his ability. If he had, maybe the Knicks wouldn't have had to include all of the players that most of you are constantly crying about.
islesfan--we devalued him to the point of almost negative value. This trade is so bad its going to haunt us for years. For goodness sakes we had a very decent team that was just young/up and coming. Now we have a very weird set up low assets and cap. A lot will depend on the new CBA. the Knicks almost need a hard cap where the ceiling is 65mm or so so they can spend 20mm. If its something along the same thing we have now and just a tad lower--this team will have no chance.
Again who are we bringing in here now. Chris Paul who will have no knees left. And Chandler and Gallo together is a better fit for this team than Carmelo. He is making 23 million the year after. He doesn't play defense and Amare suffers in the offense.
Moz-Turiaf
Amare-AR
Gallo-Chalder
Fields
Felton-Douglas
I would rather have that team capped out then the team we are going to assemble. Fields is a non factor with Melo out there. Not to mention we add good cheap priced veterans. You win with matchups in this league.
We have no center, no bench, and 42MM tied up in two guys after next year.
Finestrg wrote:martin wrote:Finestrg wrote:CashMoney wrote:islesfan wrote:The trades have nothing to do with this. The point is that Antoni never gave the kid a chance to play in games and his ability. If he had, maybe the Knicks wouldn't have had to include all of the players that most of you are constantly crying about.
Court time is earned in practice. When AR was given a limited opportunity to open the season he looked lost out there. The Knicks started the season with going to the playoffs as a target and with a 3-8 start how do you continue to play someone who is hurting the team? The answer is you don't which is why AR and TM started riding the pine.
I don't even buy that anymore...Sometimes, for the good of your team present and FUTURE, you give a guy that is that talented a longer leash to grasp what you want him to do..You stick with your superior talent through think and thin..You don't yank the cord outta the wall at the first sign of trouble..Not the way this should've been handled.
The Knicks started 3-8, and they were playing 10 guy rotation that included starting Moz and brining AR off the bench.
Let's extrapolate and you tell me at what point if you were coach that you would have changed the rotation/lineup:
3-8, no.
6-16?
9-24?
12-32?
15-40?
18-48?
21-56?
What would have been your tipping point?
Why do you look at not playing AR as the sole key solution to the turnaround? I don't..Piss poor argument if you ask me...Nobody was playing well early on --- Amar'e, Felton..
I am not looking at AR as the sole key. I mentioned Moz and playing 10 guys as factors as well. Amare/Felton were indeed playing poorly, but it's not like you can bench them, right?
So, let's just say MDA keeps AR, Moz in the lineup for a 8-10 guy rotation.
what's your breaking point?
What people are seeing in Minny now is what many of us were really psyched about when AR was traded to NY. After a promising start we ended up with a glorified jump shooter. That's what he would usually do when got the ball. That doesn't completely absolve D'Antoni. He should have made it clear that even if it wasn't pretty, that he wanted AR to give up the jumper and take it to the rim. Maybe he did and was ignored. Either way its on him because it looks like someone was able to get through to AR.
CashMoney wrote:MS wrote:Here is the issue Billups (14MM) Melo (18MM) Balkman (1MM) That's 32MM tied up in two guys that are below average defenders.
Chandler (9M) Gallo (4M) Moz (3M) AR (3M) Felton (8M)
That's 30MM
At 6'8, 6'10, 6'11, 7,0'
You win in this leaguye with size. All of those guys were going to get better as will Tony and Laundry. STAT needs the floor spaced to be effective he also needs rest.
Melo isn't getting better our guys would have. For AR not to play was a joke. Turiaf is up and down all the time and Jefferies is terrible.
The Knicks needed to be patient and get some playoff experience and grow as a team. There would have always been trades that could have been done to improve this team. The Melo trade made us worse at every position. If Mike sticks with guys like Duhon and Jefferies he should have been good enough to define a role for the kid and use him effectively as a coach. As is we gave away the house for someone that can't win a game by himself against the Cavs, Pacers or Pistons.
You're assuming the Knicks pick up Billups' deal for $14M next year. Chandler is going to wind up with a deal in the $9-10M per year range but you're also fogetting that Felton would be an UFA the following year with Gallo being a RFA at the same time. So now the Knicks give Chandler $9M they'd have to give Gallo a similar deal the following year. Now you're talking about having $18M+ tied up in Chandler and Gallo. Now what does Felton resign for after two year of 17PPG and 8 APG? Certainy not they $7.5 he signed for. Let's call his number at $10M per year. Now you have 28M tied up in Felton, Chandler & Gallo.
Depending on what the Knicks due with the roster this summer, as of now, the only players they have commitments to for the 2012/2013 season are STAT, Melo, Balkman and a team option on TD. That's a little over $41M in total. IMHO, that's a heck of a lot better than having over $50M committed and no Melo.
I think it would have been a better had MElo signed as a FA like he could have and then we would have assets to trade as well as a center still. This all comes down to MElo getting what he wanted. All he had to say was he was only going to play for us and we at least would have lost less or signed him as a FA (and what is a few million if he is playing in Endorsement rich NY on a deep team and winning?).
We could have S&T'd Chandler as an asset. If Gallo didn't want to come off the bench or wasn't a good fit he would have been a signed asset. Mos was not great but gave us a presence in the middle. Again, it all came down to MElo and his words and now he is saying all the right things, but I don't buy it. He should have said all the right things before and not left the door open to NJ. That said, I really like how he is raising his game, but damn, imagine that game with our whole team back!
Just to add about AR, I really loved the guy's talent, even though he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. It all came down to a lottery pick being traded for negative value as Briggs said. I hope he tears it up the rest of the year, for more than one reason. We continue to make bad move after bad move as a team. The latest is now the Houston swap perhaps happening this year. Hopefully it's not the guy we want going the pick before ours just like Curry to GS. (Though, we did get Fields late and might not have, had that PG been there that we wanted - so, there is a chance it works in our favor, but still, it's the principle.)
MS wrote:Again who are we bringing in here now. Chris Paul who will have no knees left. And Chandler and Gallo together is a better fit for this team than Carmelo. He is making 23 million the year after. He doesn't play defense and Amare suffers in the offense.Moz-Turiaf
Amare-AR
Gallo-Chalder
Fields
Felton-Douglas
I would rather have that team capped out then the team we are going to assemble. Fields is a non factor with Melo out there. Not to mention we add good cheap priced veterans. You win with matchups in this league.
We have no center, no bench, and 42MM tied up in two guys after next year.
bingo... you said a mouthful.. I wish I had the hot tub time machine.. I would go back and kidnap dolan until after the trade deadline...
people keep saying, get the stars first and then fill in role players, they are much easier to get.. well how do you do that without the resources?
what should amount for an unbiased perspective:
http://twitter.com/alanhahn/status/51127...alanhahn: Randolph rarely looked engaged in practice scrimmages. Didn't make much effort to put in extra work. But talent is clearly there.
martin wrote:what should amount for an unbiased perspective:http://twitter.com/alanhahn/status/51127...alanhahn: Randolph rarely looked engaged in practice scrimmages. Didn't make much effort to put in extra work. But talent is clearly there.
and this is EXACTLY what we all figured. ar did this to himself and this is coming from the biggest ar supporter this side of briggs since the day he declared for the nba draft.
How can anyone use the argument AR is putting up stats on a bad team..... when we made the trade for him from GSW he was a player who put up stats on a bad team mixed with emotional problems pre injury...... but at the time, acquisition was big upped?
Trust had GSW held on to AR and decided to dump him at the deadline 90% of the fan base would have clamored for him.
As far as Alan Hahn's analysis he's been wildly off or incognito for what's taken place in practice. Lest we forget all his lustful hoopla review over Mozgov in practice(fans thought he was nothing more than a clumsy flumsy not deserving of playing time doofus) and supposedly Shawne Williams was a beast in practice before he got playing time yet not one peep from Hahn of what he was doing.
Juice wrote:As far as Alan Hahn's analysis he's been wildly off or incognito for what's taken place in practice. Lest we forget all his lustful hoopla review over Mozgov in practice(fans thought he was nothing more than a clumsy flumsy not deserving of playing time doofus) and supposedly Shawne Williams was a beast in practice before he got playing time yet not one peep from Hahn of what he was doing.
I think you are completely off with your assessment of Hahn. I don't know what wildly off or incognito means.
Hahn had good things to say about Moz and Williams and sort of re-iterated what MDA was also telling media about those 2 players... and it's sort of panned out that way. Did Moz struggle? Sure, there is a difference between doing something in practice and in real time.
it seems obvious that AR is a guy who is moody and emotional. his attention-span and motivation likely wanes when he is feeling down. no doubt he was feeling down when MDA repeatedly benched him and never really gave him a fair chance. he was bound to fail, even though, with the right support from the coaching staff, he can surely bloom into an excellent NBA player.
its just one more notch on the championship belt MDA wears as the worst coach in the league. rather than fitting his system to the players, he insists on players fitting into his system. if you can't shoot the corner 3, you are out. who cares if you block shots, rebound, or are a unique physical specimen. enjoy the bench while billy walker fires away from the corner.
we saw the same thing with darko. darko didn't play for us and he went to minnesota and is a productive big man. jordan hill couldn't get any burn while we got absolutely demolished on the glass, and then turns into an adequate bench player in houston.
we saw the same reticence to play young guys even with gallo and then later toney D. why those guys racked up DNP-CDs while al harrington and larry hughes chucked away will always perplex me. better that MDA's offense flow than young prospects develop their skills.
and now, this is biting MDA right in his west virginian ass. as he himself has never developed as a coach who can make it work with players who's skills don't perfectly fit with "3 is more than 2" offense. the knicks have two all-stars renowned for their scoring ability who cannot score. why? because melo's game doesn't fit! and now MDA can't figure out how to make it work because he's never made it work before. he's always just played the guy who does fit.
maybe next game billy walker will start in place of melo to show melo how to stand in the corner and shoot the 3.
can't wait for 
to get out of dodge!
Good for AR, I'm happy he had a good game.
Is anyone really surprised by this though? We knew he could put up numbers, but what we witnessed over and over is that he had trouble playing within a system.
*Disclaimer - I did think AR played well when he got the late chances around Mozgov's breakout and should have been used a little more, but perhaps too little, too late?*
It would have been great for this team if we got to see AR blossom into the player we all knew he could be, but that didn't happen, and he is largely at fault for that. Oh well - I miss Gallo, Wilson, and even Mozgov, but I chalk AR up as a swing and a miss.
Brace yourself, guys. I'm sure Anthony has a few more games like this up his sleeve. I'm sure it will help the healing process if we don't get worked up over a TWolf loss.
What's Jordan Hill up to?
the point isn't that jordan hill is some all star who was on the bench. the point is jordan hill was a guy who could help the knicks but didn't b/c MDA insisted on playing jon bender and al harrington off the bench b/c they can shoot the corner 3.
so let me get this straight, we are taking two pages to talk about a guy who had like two or three really good games in an otherwise terrible career so far? c'mon guys, some of you talk about AR like he would have been the future of the club.
im not the biggest mda fan at all and agree that he sometimes doesnt give his players a deserving shot, but to be fair to pringles, he gave AR a shot and AR failed. andt, dont take mda's word for it, take the word of the hahn's of the world who actually go to knicks practices and see with their own eyes that the guy didnt want it bad enough here. same goes for darko.
for every AR there is a landry fields who got his shot and made it last. look at mason too, the guy got LESS burn than AR when AR was here and now he is playing some good minutes. i dont know why it took 70 games to get him into the rotation, but he eventually got in.
For me this has been most disappointing part of this year so far....
AR can play PERIOD!
We have been mediocre at best all year long yet Kid never gets a chance then is
just a piece traded away ...... Devalued more then anyone in NBA this year IMO
Hate we traded Gallo...... Hurts me more then AR situation but AR not even getting playing
time when we Needed rebounds more then anything
Or some extra D
Puzzles me more and makes my doubts about our coach only grow
The Don has a great EYE for talent man
Only Moz of all the guys he brought in are showing they can ball.
Now picks are so suspect to me
First DUDU!
Worst player ever but hand picke by
Robberson picked by yours truly
Jared Jeffries this year
Swawne Williams starting over real centers
Darko never played and he is proving he could even if he admitted it was he fault a coach is supposed
to get best OUT of you
Now I dont hate our coach yet but man I'm getting there!!
jimimou wrote:so let me get this straight, we are taking two pages to talk about a guy who had like two or three really good games in an otherwise terrible career so far? c'mon guys, some of you talk about AR like he would have been the future of the club. im not the biggest mda fan at all and agree that he sometimes doesnt give his players a deserving shot, but to be fair to pringles, he gave AR a shot and AR failed. andt, dont take mda's word for it, take the word of the hahn's of the world who actually go to knicks practices and see with their own eyes that the guy didnt want it bad enough here. same goes for darko.
for every AR there is a landry fields who got his shot and made it last. look at mason too, the guy got LESS burn than AR when AR was here and now he is playing some good minutes. i dont know why it took 70 games to get him into the rotation, but he eventually got in.
add in Shawne Williams or even Moz.
martin wrote:jimimou wrote:so let me get this straight, we are taking two pages to talk about a guy who had like two or three really good games in an otherwise terrible career so far? c'mon guys, some of you talk about AR like he would have been the future of the club. im not the biggest mda fan at all and agree that he sometimes doesnt give his players a deserving shot, but to be fair to pringles, he gave AR a shot and AR failed. andt, dont take mda's word for it, take the word of the hahn's of the world who actually go to knicks practices and see with their own eyes that the guy didnt want it bad enough here. same goes for darko.
for every AR there is a landry fields who got his shot and made it last. look at mason too, the guy got LESS burn than AR when AR was here and now he is playing some good minutes. i dont know why it took 70 games to get him into the rotation, but he eventually got in.
add in Shawne Williams or even Moz.
sure, i agree on shawne. moz in my eyes was a little different. but the premise is still valid. moz did get early burn. mostly b/c we needed a center. in the beginning he stunk it up - b/c he didnt really know how to play within the system yet. but instead of sulking like AR did in practice, what does moz do? he practices each day like its the nba finals. which, earned him his playing time back. then, once he got the system down and learned to play next to amare, the #'s followed and his production increased. biggest positive on moz was effort. moz has it ALWAYS, AR when he feels like it.
ill tell ya what tho, if AR goes out and continues to have 30 point nights for the rest of the year, i'll eat crow...the more realistic view, however is, it will prob take another 14 months for AR to get another 20+ point game.
