sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.
We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.
martin wrote:sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.
We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.
answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...
The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.
I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?
martin wrote:sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.
We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.
Yup, it sounds like the general feeling is he's made strides in the right direction. There is no denying he plays some hounding defense, but his ability to hit the open three behind screens has improved big time.
As far as running the offense, I'm still giving him a pass to some degree. The kid played half the season in a heavy ball movememnt offense with cutters, pick & rolls, etc. Which in fairness he wasn't running that very well either, but Felton struggled at times also. Now we moved to an isolation based half court offense which I'm hopeful he'll figure out.
He seems to have one more hurdle left. As long as the defense is not 'in your face' TD seems to handle running the show He has to learn to run the offense when the defense pressures him. Other teams have consistently gone to that strategy to disrupt his rhythm and the Knicks when he is at the helm.
listen, it's not going to be overnight for TD. he's played some really good ball since coming back from injury and the all-star break but he's not going to turn into a PG overnight, there's going to be nights like last night. the great thing about TD is that he seems eager to learn and is very coachable - that goes a long way in his progression.
What really impresses me is Toney Douglas's intelligence. He seems so smart, and that's a big plus for a point guard.
He will be fine, he needs some time to grow into his role, he will become strong, intelligent, leader of team.
SlimChin wrote:yeah he's elevated his game for sure. he does questionable things once in a while but he's a 2nd yr player. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, he's coachable and he's got Billups looking out for him. i hope Landry breaks out of his slump.
I think getting Billups has helped his development, which is why we should pick up Billup's option for next year. A whole training camp learning from Billups will make TD a better player.
Knickoftime wrote:tkf wrote:yea, TD even looks like a different player.. that behind the back pass to walker last night, he doesn't make that pass a year, or even a month ago...
Once a PG starts seeing the play develop BEHIND him, that's a sure sign something is starting to click.
Yeah, that was a true PG play, where he read what was about to happen (before anyone else saw it develop) and put the ball where Walker needed it to be. If he can keep improving with his ability to recognize situations developing, we will be set at pg.
misterearl wrote:fishmike wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:Killa4luv wrote:Tony Douglas is a really nice piece to have on our team. Especially if he can develop his PG skills. But even if he doesn't, if can continue to be lights out from 3 with that quick release, and solid defense, he's a great spark off the bench. Not to mention he can drop 20 every so often. He's a keeper, and a nice find. Against the heat he is advantage we have. Their PG position is weak.
Even against Boston, he can make Rondo work, but he's going to have to drive more.
his downside is Eddie House with great defense. His upside? Who knows? Bobby Simmons? Jason Terry? Mo Williams?Good player
yea, TD even looks like a different player.. that behind the back pass to walker last night, he doesn't make that pass a year, or even a month ago...
you have to let players grow and develop. Knicks dont ever do that, so Knick fans arent used to the concept that you can draft a guy and 2-3 years later he's actually better than he was back in his first summer league rookie year.
fishmike - Other than Chollie Ward, I am struggling to name a player the Knicks have drafted over the past TWO decades who stayed around for more than three years.
Scary.
I've been saying it for years...we don't develope any of out draft picks we get them aquainted with the league then trade him for star...I'm almost certain TD will not be a knick next year
sealy wrote:martin wrote:sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.
We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.
answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...
The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.
I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?
perhaps you should also read and react to the content and context of the original post? TD raising has game has nothing to do with overrating him.
orangeblobman wrote:What really impresses me is Toney Douglas's intelligence. He seems so smart, and that's a big plus for a point guard.He will be fine, he needs some time to grow into his role, he will become strong, intelligent, leader of team.
Let's get one thing straight. They are ALL intelligent. Professional athletes have been measured, tested, probed and evaluated on every level of physical and mental capacity. The myth of one player being "intelligent" while another is a "dummy" is a by-product of personal bias. Professional sports demand a brand of intelligence that is not restricted to a book. Some of that "intelligence" was gathered in the middle of a corn field in French Lick, Indiana or a playground in Mount Vernon, New York.
Intelligence is NOT attending Stanford or Notre Dame or Harvard University. Intelligence is nurtured at Virginia Union, Hampton and Norfolk State. Intelligence is hitting the open man, boxing out, switching without running into each other and NOT being stuck with the restaurant tab for eight other guys as a rookie. Intelligence is knowing that reporters are out for blood, your college career was pimped by the NCAA, you can be traded in a heartbeat, you have no friends and the hottie standing at the players entrance is nothing but trouble.
Toney Douglas is no more intelligent than any other player on the Knicks roster. What Toney Douglas is... is a relentless worker. How do I know this? I know the Douglas family personally. His Mom and Dad are not college educated. They are not even "educated" by normal standards. They are "salt of the earth", focused and determined. They do not repeat mistakes. They supported their two sons unconditionally since high school and made EVERY game. The other Douglas, Harry, plays for the Falcons. The family has burned through several automobiles on road trips alone. Their support is unyielding.
Toney Douglas will become a better point guard by his tenacity.
Not simply some arbitrary assumption of "intelligence."
sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
agreed. but i think he made some huge shots in the final minutes that frankly won the game for the knicks. if he learns to run the offense, he'll be another Chauncey Billups IMO...
he has gained a lot of confidence. Right now, he has to improve his floater, mid range game, and court leadership. Its obvious CB has been a better mentor than Felton, Felton never had a great mentor himself. CB is a true veteran and a way smarter player vs Felton. I think he is best suited as a 6th man type role, similar to Jamal Crawford but better defense.
He is still young, learning, and developing under CB's guidance. With CB's injury he will get a shot to be a starter or does Anthony Carter get the call? No one can replicate TD as the 6th man role he has been doing though.
martin wrote:sealy wrote:martin wrote:sealy wrote:loweyecue wrote:TD is going to let others teams take over in the 4th Q routinely by rushing shots and going iso, he thinks he is the second coming of Kobe. He is obviously making a sloid contribution but he is also almost giving the game away. Unless he learns how to think, he is basically a liability.
Thank you. I can't believe how overrated this guy is. He seems like a good dude, but his game is seriously lacking for a PG.
While he did hit some big shots and has made nice strides, he is not capable of playing the PG because he can't/ doesn't know how to run the offense.
No one else noticed Philly going on their run after Billups went out? That's because TD doesn't make the offense flow and he a horrendous passer. He played like shit in the 4th qtr on both ends even though he did hit a big 3 and got fouled driving to the bucket.
Hopefully he gets better over time, but people here are completely overrating him
question: what are people here rating TD? Cause I don't see anyone overrating him.
We all know his strengths and weaknesses. Not sure there is even a majority that think he can be a lead PG for the team.
answer: The title of the thread is "Toney has really raised his game" which would entail his overall game; scoring, passing, defense, etc...
The title of thread should be "Toney has really picked up his scoring" which has been out of pure necessity. I can think of two other guards we had that could also fill it up and weren't very solid in other areas - Jamal and Nate.
I like Toney Douglas and hope, just as much as every other Knick fan, that he develops into something, like I said previously, but I think he is a bit overvalued by alot of fans. Is that wording better for you?
perhaps you should also read and react to the content and context of the original post? TD raising has game has nothing to do with overrating him.
I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring.
Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.
Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.
But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.
sealy wrote:I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring. Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.
Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.
But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.
GP MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Pre All-Star 53 22.4 3.3-8.3 .403 1.4-4.1 .349 1.0-1.2 .773 0.8 2.1 2.9 2.2 0.0 1.2 2.2 1.0 9.1
Post All-Star 22 28.0 4.9-11.1 .439 2.4-5.8 .414 0.9-1.0 .826 0.8 2.5 3.3 4.5 0.0 0.8 2.5 1.4 13.0
based on above, would you say that there is a difference pre- and post- allstar game for TD?
In this context, how does overrating come in to play?
martin wrote:sealy wrote:I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring. Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.
Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.
But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.
GP MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Pre All-Star 53 22.4 3.3-8.3 .403 1.4-4.1 .349 1.0-1.2 .773 0.8 2.1 2.9 2.2 0.0 1.2 2.2 1.0 9.1
Post All-Star 22 28.0 4.9-11.1 .439 2.4-5.8 .414 0.9-1.0 .826 0.8 2.5 3.3 4.5 0.0 0.8 2.5 1.4 13.0
based on above, would you say that there is a difference pre- and post- allstar game for TD?
In this context, how does overrating come in to play?
Of course his stats have improved because he has been forced into a larger role since the trade and Billups' injury and lack of familiarity with MDA's system have also supplemented his numbers as well. This debate seems like it's headed for the sports metrics thing that stated Melo was garbage for whatever the stats said. While I realize that the numbers have some value, I trust my own eyes with regard to TD's game.
So again, IN MY OPINION, those improved numbers that you're referencing are like window dressing to me and therefore can ultimately lead one into overrating his overall game. It's the same with the unemployement rate and with NYS regents scores. The numbers don't neccessarily represent what is actually happening. Census jobs were used to deflate the UI rate and solid regents scores doesn't mean students are actually learning anything.
I realize this is an extreme analogy, but I am just trying to clarify my point.
It's cool that we disagree man. I really like this forum and I shouldn't even be on here at work.
Have a good one
sealy wrote:martin wrote:sealy wrote:I'm sorry man, but I am disagreeing with those who are saying he has raised his game, which as I said before, encompasses more than just scoring. Personally, I don't find TD to be all that great of a defender. Of course, by comparison he looks good and picks a pocket every now and then, but I'm sure alot of you have noticed that he generally overplays his man out near half court and gets burnt time after time causing the D to breakdown, which usually leads to an easy bucket. Even Clyde points this out from time to time, so I know I'm not coming outta left field with that opinion. I also think he is a god awful passer/distributor. The Toronto game might have been the 1st time all season I've seen him complete more than one PnR successfully.
Again, to reiterate, I have no issue with his character or question his lack of work ethic. He does seem like a good guy, similar to Jamal Crawford and I really hope he turns out to be a player. Like someone stated above, I think another year behind Chauncey would be great for him.
But you saying TD raising his "game" has no correlation to overrating him is just incorrect in my opinion.
GP MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Pre All-Star 53 22.4 3.3-8.3 .403 1.4-4.1 .349 1.0-1.2 .773 0.8 2.1 2.9 2.2 0.0 1.2 2.2 1.0 9.1
Post All-Star 22 28.0 4.9-11.1 .439 2.4-5.8 .414 0.9-1.0 .826 0.8 2.5 3.3 4.5 0.0 0.8 2.5 1.4 13.0
based on above, would you say that there is a difference pre- and post- allstar game for TD?
In this context, how does overrating come in to play?
Of course his stats have improved because he has been forced into a larger role since the trade and Billups' injury and lack of familiarity with MDA's system have also supplemented his numbers as well. This debate seems like it's headed for the sports metrics thing that stated Melo was garbage for whatever the stats said. While I realize that the numbers have some value, I trust my own eyes with regard to TD's game.
So again, IN MY OPINION, those improved numbers that you're referencing are like window dressing to me and therefore can ultimately lead one into overrating his overall game. It's the same with the unemployement rate and with NYS regents scores. The numbers don't neccessarily represent what is actually happening. Census jobs were used to deflate the UI rate and solid regents scores doesn't mean students are actually learning anything.
I realize this is an extreme analogy, but I am just trying to clarify my point.
It's cool that we disagree man. I really like this forum and I shouldn't even be on here at work.
Have a good one
Just keeping watching then.
