Knicks · Is this core squad of Melo & Amar'e good enough to win a championship, regardless of who the coach is? (page 2)

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:No. The Knicks have a coach in place now who had a lot more talent in Phoenix and couldn't reach the finals so I don't see anyway Melo and Amare can overcome his shortcomings to achieve that kind of success in the playoffs.

What does any of that have to do with whether Melo and STAT can win regardless of the coach? This version of the Knicks even with Melo wasn't better than the PHX Suns that Mike had, but that doesn't mean that this duo can't go further once we add the key upgrades to the team needed to form a title contending team.

It would seem to me that to insure that the team can win a championship we need more! STAT and Melo aren't the kind of players that actually LEAD a team on the floor from a play calling aspect. We still need a floor leader that handles the ball and gets everyone the best possible shot. In addition since STAT isn't a typical PF nor a C, we must augment him with a Perkins type of big. It's actually the same problem we had with Eddy Curry. Curry needed a rebounding/shotblocker next to him to augment his lack of those skills. So we find a way to get a real C that can board and it would help a ton.

The topic was winning regardless of who the coach is. My point is that the current coach had a lot more talent than that core and couldn't get out of the west. I haven't seen anything from this coach to convince me that he can get a team with less talent than he had in the west to overachieve and win more. If I missed something during his tenure here that might convince me please let me know.

The core of Jordan and Pippen wouldn't have been enough to win a ring without Phil Jackson and the right complimentary players. I thought D'Antoni's system could work here but I didn't believe that it was the end all be all as D'Antoni does. I want a coach who is more flexible, who has more than one trick up his sleeve.

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Melo and Amare are good enough to win a championship with the right players added(re-up Donnie now!!!), with the right system in place "What is this dee-fence I keep hearing about? I wants it !!"(Please let go of MDA to have him go coach an Eastern conference rival, pretty please). Are they good enough to win it all IN SPITE of the coach, like we've won/almost won some games this year? I don't want to find out. I think we tried to put backcourt pressure on Rondo one forking time throughout the series, ehem , in the first 3 games(granted I did not watch game 4 because I was a sad panda + unable to drown my sorrows with alchohol) and thats not how you do eet.

Not for nothing but the defense was near flawless in the 1st 2 games. It really wouldn't put so much pressure on the D if our offense was working like it should. That's the whole idea behind having Mike in the 1st place. If you have Amar'e you're never going to have a defense that is lock tight. You'd better be able to score the ball at a high level. We couldn't really do that cuz we lacked the PG to actually accomplish that. We had to change what we do and we almost completely lost the easy offense that Amar'e usually thrives on. Remember when Amar'e was able to get to the basket off PnR and Cuts? If you have a PG that can break down a D and get into the lane it opens things up for STAT and MELO. We got no guard penetration and even tho AC was able to give us a boost on D he's not nearly the guy to run the offense. When we finally get a PG that can do the basic things like Drive and dish and PnR, you'll see how much better this coach's system really is. Get a C and we'll be in the ECF's with a chance to go to the finals. STAT and Melo alone can't do it.

Actually nope. I've seen it a few PnR (and boy did I get excited !!) but not once did he get to the basket off of a cut(thats not one of MDA's tricks, you are thinking some other coach). I don't remember him being able to do these things in such a way that it would be a reliable option in our offense. I do remember him doing it with Nash, who is the only person that MDA was able to teach how to run a PnR.(Nash might have known it already). So, MDA cannot teach PnR to anyone not named Nash and this brings me to the conclusion that for MDA to have a chance he needs Steve Nash(who does not require teaching or "coaching", if you will)

ramtour420 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Melo and Amare are good enough to win a championship with the right players added(re-up Donnie now!!!), with the right system in place "What is this dee-fence I keep hearing about? I wants it !!"(Please let go of MDA to have him go coach an Eastern conference rival, pretty please). Are they good enough to win it all IN SPITE of the coach, like we've won/almost won some games this year? I don't want to find out. I think we tried to put backcourt pressure on Rondo one forking time throughout the series, ehem , in the first 3 games(granted I did not watch game 4 because I was a sad panda + unable to drown my sorrows with alchohol) and thats not how you do eet.

Not for nothing but the defense was near flawless in the 1st 2 games. It really wouldn't put so much pressure on the D if our offense was working like it should. That's the whole idea behind having Mike in the 1st place. If you have Amar'e you're never going to have a defense that is lock tight. You'd better be able to score the ball at a high level. We couldn't really do that cuz we lacked the PG to actually accomplish that. We had to change what we do and we almost completely lost the easy offense that Amar'e usually thrives on. Remember when Amar'e was able to get to the basket off PnR and Cuts? If you have a PG that can break down a D and get into the lane it opens things up for STAT and MELO. We got no guard penetration and even tho AC was able to give us a boost on D he's not nearly the guy to run the offense. When we finally get a PG that can do the basic things like Drive and dish and PnR, you'll see how much better this coach's system really is. Get a C and we'll be in the ECF's with a chance to go to the finals. STAT and Melo alone can't do it.

Actually nope. I've seen it a few PnR (and boy did I get excited !!) but not once did he get to the basket off of a cut(thats not one of MDA's tricks, you are thinking some other coach). I don't remember him being able to do these things in such a way that it would be a reliable option in our offense. I do remember him doing it with Nash, who is the only person that MDA was able to teach how to run a PnR.(Nash might have known it already). So, MDA cannot teach PnR to anyone not named Nash and this brings me to the conclusion that for MDA to have a chance he needs Steve Nash(who does not require teaching or "coaching", if you will)

Dallas ran more PNP pick and pop when Nash was there with Dirk although he used guys like Lafrentz/Dampier/Howard for PNR. They faced the Jazz real early in the playoffs as a core in their career. I'm sure Nash was very familiar with how to run it. The PNR is not D'AnToni's fans talk about as if he invented the scheme/set....lol.

loweyecue wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Name me a championship team where their two best players don't play excellent defense.

I think I may have actually asked a similar question before the trade. but I'm not sure I used the term "excellent"- I might have asked if there was ever a championship team where its two best players were known as below average defenders, or something to that effect.

By the way...you won't get any answers because such a team has never existed.

If the bulls win this year, they will be the first. Rose and Boozer are both subpar defenders. Rose is downright bad.

Interesting... did not think about them.

Does having Noah on the team change anything? Boozer is the "recognized" star, but is he more important than Noah on that team?

No love for 2006 Shaq and Wade??? Shaq well past his defensive best and Wade not as focused as he is now. Jason Williams, Cyber Tawn........ how was that an above average defensive champion???

Haslem, Zo and Posey carriedthe defensive flag..........

Stoudemire and Melo are plenty good enough to win a championship with if we have the right role players who can shoot and defend. It's all about the supporting cast at this point.

Paladin55 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Name me a championship team where their two best players don't play excellent defense.

I think I may have actually asked a similar question before the trade. but I'm not sure I used the term "excellent"- I might have asked if there was ever a championship team where its two best players were known as below average defenders, or something to that effect.

By the way...you won't get any answers because such a team has never existed.

If the bulls win this year, they will be the first. Rose and Boozer are both subpar defenders. Rose is downright bad.

Interesting... did not think about them.

Does having Noah on the team change anything? Boozer is the "recognized" star, but is he more important than Noah on that team?

Thats it. Not only do we need to add a few more defensive players, but we need a consistant defensive system. Pierce and Allen were offensive gunners until they were placed in Thibbs defensive system. Now they are a part of the best defensive unit in the league the past 3 yrs.

CrushAlot wrote:No. The Knicks have a coach in place now who had a lot more talent in Phoenix and couldn't reach the finals so I don't see anyway Melo and Amare can overcome his shortcomings to achieve that kind of success in the playoffs.

there was more talent in phoenix? marion barbosa and raja bell have fallen off the map since they left phoenix.

Boozer may not be a great defender but he's a top flight rebounder and thats part of it. Amare isnt. Melo can be when he's in the mood. Boozer is a double double machine. He cleans the glass. Thats a big part of getting stops.