JrZyHuStLa wrote:fishmike wrote:All the Knicks that were traded did very little in the playoffs, but I think everyone agreed they were complimentary players no?We were the top scoring team in the NBA. Production wasnt really the problem was it? I thought this was all about winning, and you need stars in win late in games, you need stars to win in the playoffs and you need stars to win titles.
you guys have seen Melo for 4 playoff games now. You guys see him has the key piece to a title caliber team? And why? What did you think of his playoff performance as Knick vs. his playoff performances with the Nuggs?
I think the majority agreed that they were complimentary pieces, but a lot guys went even further by saying we gave up too much when we really didn't. Mosgov getting all 0s justifies him worth being the extra piece Denver asked for.
If Karl played Mosgov Denver wins that series. OKC only won because of poor coaching
they were complimentary pieces but good ones, and they showed they could win games agaisnt elite NBA teams, and on the road no less. We overpaid not only in players, but in flexibility. We gave up a ton for player that wanted to play here AND we had cap space to sign. Thats just nuts man.... Melo should have cost us Chandler. Not Gallo, Mos, Felton, AR, picks, etc
I get that your hungry, but why pay $100 for a burger that will cost you $5 next week?
We got hosed because Dolan couldnt wait to get him and raise ticket prices. Is there any debate on that?
They showed that they could win in the regular season.
JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.
fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:Marv wrote:Melo, as we know, produced in the playoffs. Even under conditions where he was getting next to no support and was being keyed in. you put him out there with a healthy amear and chauncey, and another excellent player and some capable role players – I’m good to go with that. I much more trust in that than rolling the dice on the development of the traded guys.
good post Marv.
sorry guys.. I gotta say it. What did he produce again?
sorry fishmike, but I have to ask. What were your expectations from him?
why sorry?the only specific expectations I had were that if the games were tight as the first two were that Melo's ablilty to close would get us a win. Before the series I predicted we lose 4-1 only winning a meaningless game 4 at the garden. I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for us every which way. I would have given the Knicks a good chance to win against Orl, Chi or Mia, but Bos was just a bad matchup. Like the Twins getting the Yanks or something.
I would give him a D for Boston series. I was fine with games 2,3 and 4. Game 2 was obviously great. Games 3-4 execution was poor but he played hard, he tried to get teammates involved, he rebounded, etc... winning just wasnt in the cards.
Game 1 upset me. Not because he didnt play well, but his effort was poor, plain and simle. Your first playoff game as a Knick and he treated it like a YMCA game on a Tues night when its more about hitting the pub afterwards.
The 5-18 shooting was bad, but that happens. EVERY player has that happen, and I dont have a problem there. But dont great players find other ways to impact the game? Or when your shot isnt falling whats the #1 rule? Attack the basket and get to the line. Melo took 4 FTs and pulled down 4 rebounds. Thats totally unacceptable and if we get anything from him in that game we win game one and things look a bit different. Yes he was in foul trouble but what did he contribute in his 30+ minutes? Terrible.
Guys... I still havent heard from anyone. Silver? Marvelous? What did you think of Melo's performance in his first Knicks playoffs?
And Nalod.. can you trim that photo? Jesus!
i will respond later! gotta deal with a deadline that’s rocketing straight toward my ass cuz for a change i procrastinated 
Marv wrote:i will respond later! gotta deal with a deadline that’s rocketing straight toward my ass
is "deadline" your pet name for Melo's magic johnson?
fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.
But he played with 4 YMCA guys. Didn't you get the memo?
JrZyHuStLa wrote:fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:They showed that they could win in the regular season.
which remains my concern about the player we traded for.
But he played with 4 YMCA guys. Didn't you get the memo?
right... all 8 years he's been in the league, except one. Good enough to "lead" a team to 50+ wins however many times but not to win a couple playoff game, or series
This trend doesnt bother you? This is just another KG situation where he needs a few good players around him and we see what he can really do?
Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
martin wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:Looking forward to Billups being on this team next year after an entire off season and training camp with this organization. The key with him at this stage in his career is health, as it is with most guys in their mid 30s. Good health along with improved chemistry will be huge.
rest for entire off season and training camp definitely key
MDA also has to manage his minutes. i would've liked to see amare's minutes limited this year too -- it was inevitable that he broke down and he did (end of regular season; post season -- two separate incidents).
knicks need a competent backup PG so that billups can rest on the 2nd night of back to backs and his minutes can hover around (preferably under) 30 MPG for the season. if MDA is coaching like its game 7 in november billups will get hurt.
fishmike wrote:Marv wrote:i will respond later! gotta deal with a deadline that’s rocketing straight toward my ass
is "deadline" your pet name for Melo's magic johnson?
I have no worries. He doesn’t take it to the hole, remember?
The trade put this team in position to go further than it would before. But you still have to put in work to build the team. Melo didn't hit for high % but then nobody on the Knicks really did. I think the Celtics are a nightmare for teams that aren't 100% in synch on offense or defense. Amazingly the Knicks did a great job in games 1 & 2 on D, but the fact that the team was not actually able to find a style of play that was perfect for the old and new parts was a problem. What Dolan did was totally mess up the plan Don and Mike had in terms of adding Melo to what they had. So now they have to almost start from scratch putting role players around STAT and Melo.
Before the trade Fields had a clue as to how he fit in. Amar'e was still able to get some PnR plays and everyone knew their role. After the trade they had to change so much of what the team did and against a great defensive team like the C's it was a huge disadvantage. SO the mix wasn't as good, but that can be improved on.
I don't expect that to be an issue in the playoffs next year and beyond. The amount of chemistry CB, Melo and STAT will build should be lightyears better than what we saw. Mike will also have a much better handle on his roster and the rotations. People just aren't using reason when evaluating what the Knicks are right now and what they will be. Melo is not Kobe, but the idea is that you still have to build a great team so that it's not about one player. We still need to continue to upgrade the talent on the roster so that it's not about one guy or even 2 carrying the team. In the playoffs it's too easy to shutdown 2 guys if the other guys aren't any good.
We don't want Melo to have to score 40 just to keep us in the game. The idea is for him to do that and it leads to a blowout in the playoffs, cuz the rest of the team is already good enough to keep us in games. The idea is for Melo to put us over the top. That means you have to have a good team around him. That's what the plan is.
fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes
He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.
I agree Marv it needed to be done. Lets face it, to take on the best teams you have to go in with a few heavy hitters and scoring wise Melo is a heavy hitter. We have two now. If Billups can come back and contribute, and Donnie can work the phones, this team could be the best we've seen in decades. Big if ,but the main components are already here, the hard part is over as far as the roster is concerned.
fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:Marv wrote:Melo, as we know, produced in the playoffs. Even under conditions where he was getting next to no support and was being keyed in. you put him out there with a healthy amear and chauncey, and another excellent player and some capable role players – I’m good to go with that. I much more trust in that than rolling the dice on the development of the traded guys.
good post Marv.
sorry guys.. I gotta say it. What did he produce again?
sorry fishmike, but I have to ask. What were your expectations from him?
why sorry?the only specific expectations I had were that if the games were tight as the first two were that Melo's ablilty to close would get us a win. Before the series I predicted we lose 4-1 only winning a meaningless game 4 at the garden. I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for us every which way. I would have given the Knicks a good chance to win against Orl, Chi or Mia, but Bos was just a bad matchup. Like the Twins getting the Yanks or something.
I would give him a D for Boston series. I was fine with games 2,3 and 4. Game 2 was obviously great. Games 3-4 execution was poor but he played hard, he tried to get teammates involved, he rebounded, etc... winning just wasnt in the cards.
Game 1 upset me. Not because he didnt play well, but his effort was poor, plain and simle. Your first playoff game as a Knick and he treated it like a YMCA game on a Tues night when its more about hitting the pub afterwards.
The 5-18 shooting was bad, but that happens. EVERY player has that happen, and I dont have a problem there. But dont great players find other ways to impact the game? Or when your shot isnt falling whats the #1 rule? Attack the basket and get to the line. Melo took 4 FTs and pulled down 4 rebounds. Thats totally unacceptable and if we get anything from him in that game we win game one and things look a bit different. Yes he was in foul trouble but what did he contribute in his 30+ minutes? Terrible.
Well you felt sorry to ask me so I decided to echo your sentiment. I will not argue specific games, it will do nothing to change our minds. We got wrecked by Boston and Melo was our best player. If you gave him a D then everyone else should be so far below an F you would have to borrow a letter grade from a different language.
I still don't see your core disagreement with us here. Do you not like Melo as a guy playing for the Knicks? What exactly are you saying here?
Guys... I still havent heard from anyone. Silver? Marvelous? What did you think of Melo's performance in his first Knicks playoffs?And Nalod.. can you trim that photo? Jesus!
I think Melo was the best Knick player on the floor in his first playoff appearance.
JrZyHuStLa wrote:fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes
He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.
oh... so we are back to the Marbury is just as good as Kidd because neither have rings arguement?
Lebron James went to a finals. He went to the ECF finals. He won playoff series. He did it will Anderson Varejao and Mo Williams and guys like that. He had deep playoff runs. Melo never has except once his teams were always less talented then Melo's.
Lebron isnt championship caliber? But your saying Melo is? What ARE you saying? What point did I just prove? Curious to hear this one...
fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes
He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.
oh... so we are back to the Marbury is just as good as Kidd because neither have rings arguement?Lebron James went to a finals. He went to the ECF finals. He won playoff series. He did it will Anderson Varejao and Mo Williams and guys like that. He had deep playoff runs. Melo never has except once his teams were always less talented then Melo's.
Lebron isnt championship caliber? But your saying Melo is? What ARE you saying? What point did I just prove? Curious to hear this one...
This is very very unfair. Lebron got to the ECF through the weak East. Melo played in the West when it was a powerhouse seeds 1 through 8.
Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:Marv wrote:Melo, as we know, produced in the playoffs. Even under conditions where he was getting next to no support and was being keyed in. you put him out there with a healthy amear and chauncey, and another excellent player and some capable role players – I’m good to go with that. I much more trust in that than rolling the dice on the development of the traded guys.
good post Marv.
sorry guys.. I gotta say it. What did he produce again?
sorry fishmike, but I have to ask. What were your expectations from him?
why sorry?the only specific expectations I had were that if the games were tight as the first two were that Melo's ablilty to close would get us a win. Before the series I predicted we lose 4-1 only winning a meaningless game 4 at the garden. I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for us every which way. I would have given the Knicks a good chance to win against Orl, Chi or Mia, but Bos was just a bad matchup. Like the Twins getting the Yanks or something.
I would give him a D for Boston series. I was fine with games 2,3 and 4. Game 2 was obviously great. Games 3-4 execution was poor but he played hard, he tried to get teammates involved, he rebounded, etc... winning just wasnt in the cards.
Game 1 upset me. Not because he didnt play well, but his effort was poor, plain and simle. Your first playoff game as a Knick and he treated it like a YMCA game on a Tues night when its more about hitting the pub afterwards.
The 5-18 shooting was bad, but that happens. EVERY player has that happen, and I dont have a problem there. But dont great players find other ways to impact the game? Or when your shot isnt falling whats the #1 rule? Attack the basket and get to the line. Melo took 4 FTs and pulled down 4 rebounds. Thats totally unacceptable and if we get anything from him in that game we win game one and things look a bit different. Yes he was in foul trouble but what did he contribute in his 30+ minutes? Terrible.
Well you felt sorry to ask me so I decided to echo your sentiment. I will not argue specific games, it will do nothing to change our minds. We got wrecked by Boston and Melo was our best player. If you gave him a D then everyone else should be so far below an F you would have to borrow a letter grade from a different language. I still don't see your core disagreement with us here. Do you not like Melo as a guy playing for the Knicks? What exactly are you saying here?
Guys... I still havent heard from anyone. Silver? Marvelous? What did you think of Melo's performance in his first Knicks playoffs?And Nalod.. can you trim that photo? Jesus!
I think Melo was the best Knick player on the floor in his first playoff appearance.
yes, I like him as a Knick player.
He was the 2nd best player for the Knicks until Amare went down.
Specific games is important.
If Melo had 12 rebounds and 5 assists in game one but we still lost I give him a C+, because he played his ass off but shooting 37% still sucks and we arent winning playoff series with out best player shooting 37%. He's got to do better.
If Melo hit that game winner in game one or got a winning shot off in game 2 I would give him a B+ (assuming we still lose series)
If Melo hit 2 game winners in 1 and 2 and we lost the next 4 I would give him an A+
I gave him a D because his shooting was poor for the whole series and his effort was poor in game 1. For the caliber player he is thats a poor performance. Agree or disagree
I’d say it was a mixed performance - some fantastic and some disappointing.
Game 1 I saw differently from you. Fantastic 1st half. Terrible 2nd half. He got those 2 early fouls including that bogus offensive foul and had to sit a bunch. Came back just on fire. 12 1st-half points, I think all in the 2nd quarter. Tenacious D. I remember at least 2 times he hounded guys into coughing up the ball. He was all over the place, led the team to a 12 point halftime lead. Every thing we would have wanted from him. 2nd half – terrible. Kept bombing and missing. Like you said – should have taken it to the hole.
Game 2 was one of the all-time great performances ever by a knick. Good lord, 42 points on 14-30 and 4-8 3’s and 10-11 ft’s, 17 boards, 6 assists, 2 blocks and ONE TURNOVOVER. good lord. At one point in the 4th he had scored 13 in a row and 18 of 20. and that nimrod jeffries spoiled his Jordan moment by bobbling the ball.
game 3 horrible. But at least he did grab 11 boards, handed out 6 assists and got 8 trips to the line. And he held his 3’s down, going 1 for 3. but his shooting was abominable and he didn’t do enough work inside.
Game 4 great. 32 and 9 with 11 fta.
So that count is 2.5 great games and 1.5 terrible ones. Naturally I would have liked to have seen better and I would have liked to have seen w’s. but man, to have been out there almost all alone with the injuries and depletions and put up 26-10-5. seriously, how many guys do that in the playoffs? Just imagine if amear had contributed his average of 25ppg on 50% instead of the 15ppg he put up on 38%. And if chauncey had played 4 games at his usual of 17ppg on 43% with 5 assists instead of the one game he played.
One last interesting thought regarding the trade. In the playoffs melo matched the total numbers of the 4 nuggets he was traded for – in 39 minutes per game vs 83. how’s that for efficiency? Less than ½ the minutes to produce the same numbers as 4 guys combined. Still hating, son?
fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:Silverfuel wrote:Marv wrote:Melo, as we know, produced in the playoffs. Even under conditions where he was getting next to no support and was being keyed in. you put him out there with a healthy amear and chauncey, and another excellent player and some capable role players – I’m good to go with that. I much more trust in that than rolling the dice on the development of the traded guys.
good post Marv.
sorry guys.. I gotta say it. What did he produce again?
sorry fishmike, but I have to ask. What were your expectations from him?
why sorry?the only specific expectations I had were that if the games were tight as the first two were that Melo's ablilty to close would get us a win. Before the series I predicted we lose 4-1 only winning a meaningless game 4 at the garden. I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for us every which way. I would have given the Knicks a good chance to win against Orl, Chi or Mia, but Bos was just a bad matchup. Like the Twins getting the Yanks or something.
I would give him a D for Boston series. I was fine with games 2,3 and 4. Game 2 was obviously great. Games 3-4 execution was poor but he played hard, he tried to get teammates involved, he rebounded, etc... winning just wasnt in the cards.
Game 1 upset me. Not because he didnt play well, but his effort was poor, plain and simle. Your first playoff game as a Knick and he treated it like a YMCA game on a Tues night when its more about hitting the pub afterwards.
The 5-18 shooting was bad, but that happens. EVERY player has that happen, and I dont have a problem there. But dont great players find other ways to impact the game? Or when your shot isnt falling whats the #1 rule? Attack the basket and get to the line. Melo took 4 FTs and pulled down 4 rebounds. Thats totally unacceptable and if we get anything from him in that game we win game one and things look a bit different. Yes he was in foul trouble but what did he contribute in his 30+ minutes? Terrible.
Well you felt sorry to ask me so I decided to echo your sentiment. I will not argue specific games, it will do nothing to change our minds. We got wrecked by Boston and Melo was our best player. If you gave him a D then everyone else should be so far below an F you would have to borrow a letter grade from a different language. I still don't see your core disagreement with us here. Do you not like Melo as a guy playing for the Knicks? What exactly are you saying here?
Guys... I still havent heard from anyone. Silver? Marvelous? What did you think of Melo's performance in his first Knicks playoffs?And Nalod.. can you trim that photo? Jesus!
I think Melo was the best Knick player on the floor in his first playoff appearance.
yes, I like him as a Knick player.
He was the 2nd best player for the Knicks until Amare went down.Specific games is important.
If Melo had 12 rebounds and 5 assists in game one but we still lost I give him a C+, because he played his ass off but shooting 37% still sucks and we arent winning playoff series with out best player shooting 37%. He's got to do better.
If Melo hit that game winner in game one or got a winning shot off in game 2 I would give him a B+ (assuming we still lose series)
If Melo hit 2 game winners in 1 and 2 and we lost the next 4 I would give him an A+
I gave him a D because his shooting was poor for the whole series and his effort was poor in game 1. For the caliber player he is thats a poor performance. Agree or disagree
Oh yeah, he wasn't his regular Melo self in the 2nd half of Game 1 but I think it is unrealistic to expect him to dominate every single game. If you think he should dominate every single game then we have nothing to talk about.
It is amazing how much you expect from Melo and how much of a pass you have given our other players in the present and in the past.
Silverfuel wrote:fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:fishmike wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:Name the last championship caliber all star that didn't have a few good players around him.
Lebron JAmes
He wasn't championship caliber. You just proved my point of needing very good players around a star player to win a championship.
oh... so we are back to the Marbury is just as good as Kidd because neither have rings arguement?Lebron James went to a finals. He went to the ECF finals. He won playoff series. He did it will Anderson Varejao and Mo Williams and guys like that. He had deep playoff runs. Melo never has except once his teams were always less talented then Melo's.
Lebron isnt championship caliber? But your saying Melo is? What ARE you saying? What point did I just prove? Curious to hear this one...
This is very very unfair. Lebron got to the ECF through the weak East. Melo played in the West when it was a powerhouse seeds 1 through 8.
Which would bring me back to the first arguement regarding Melo vs. MDA and how they are judged
MDA's system will never win because he doesnt care about defense and just chucks. But that system got the Suns to the Western Conference finals playing Boris Diaw at center in the stacked west as you called it (I agree it is). Meanwhile Melo is given all the credit for "leading" the Nuggets to multiple 50 win seasons, but the guy cant "lead" them out of the first round.
This has me labeled an MDA apologist and Melo hater, but my arguement is whats fair for MDA should be fair for Melo.
And Silver I agree on the West vs. East.
Its not fair, and you look at the Nuggets playoff history and there isnt a series where you say damn... Nuggs should have won that, but this is sports and Melo is a superstar and he's supposed to come up big when it counts and he's yet to do that.
That being said Melo has been a very average playoff performer, if you look at the whole body of work.
To sum up:
I thought Melo played poorly (over all) for the Boston series (thus the D grade)
I did not like or support the trade. I thought we overpaid and Walsh was undermined. We gave up cap space and picks and young players for a guy who was a FA, wanted to be here and we had the jack to sign him.
I do like Melo as a player. Like him very much, but he's got a lot to prove if he wants to be considered among the NBA elite.
I think we will win 55 games next year with a moderatly improved supporting cast and healthy Amare + Melo
I will believe we can be an elite team w/ Melo when I see him outplay whoever, and the Knicks advance a round or two.
