Off Topic · OT: BIN LADEN DEAD (page 4)
Andrew wrote:Posted by a cousin of mine on FB:"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"Martin Luther King, Jr
Very nice Andrew.
MaTT4281 wrote:
the irony of this song appears to have been lost...
does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
Allanfan20 wrote:Silverfuel wrote:OasisBU wrote:Moonangie wrote:Panos wrote:TEN YEAR search, they finally find the man, and within 12 hours, they "bury" (hide) the body at sea. Does this not sound just a little fishy to anyone else?It is a gesture of respect to Muslims world wide, since by custom they must bury the corpse within 24 hours. It is also a strategy to disaffect Islamists who might otherwise use his burial place as a symbol of martyrdom.
Just to add a little more info to this - the United States apparently offered Saudi Arabia the body and they turned it down.
"The Saudis declined a U.S. offer to take the body, this person said." - WSJ
Good one, I had missed that.My question is this: Why were we so respectful about this towards Osamas carcus and besides his radical terrorist followers, who actually cares how the body is dealt with? Why would Muslims choose to associate themselves with this man by allowing him to be part of their own rituals?
Is this only confusuing me?
Any disrespect intentional or unintentional would have come off as a taunt and you never wanna taunt. Like Moonangie said, "Why fan the flames by being disrespectful of religious customs."
Andrew, I am all for non-violence and to some extent I agree with that quote. But, IMO, Bin Laden was the kind of evil that could not be changed. Its like that 8mm line, the devil does not change.
PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.
Andrew wrote:Posted by a cousin of mine on FB:"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"Martin Luther King, Jr
great quote.
Andrew wrote:Posted by a cousin of mine on FB:"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"Martin Luther King, Jr
+Infinity
That's why I said....."Glory today Sorry tomorrow"
Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.
peace, silverfuel.
my feeling is that, sure, bin laden was killed in (what we are told was) a firefight when he realized he was being raided, which is to say that is different and perhaps more understandable than via a missle (which is what we are also being told was obama's call). i can also recognize the need for some closure for many people on the matter given the acts of violence and hatred he has had in his own response to acts of violence and perceived disrespect towards islam by the u.s. as a nation.
that is more than understandable, as is anger when we first experience loss, but when we hold onto that loss too anger, leading to improper approach to such emotions, and feel a need to act out so angrily by vehemently celebrating someone's death, i don't care who the perpetrator was, there is something else going on. it is also exactly such kind of reactions that have led to the same violence that we claim to want to end.
if we think about all of the thousands and thousands of innocent people, soliders, etc. who have died as a result of the quest to destroy this man, that is sure a lot of collateral damage, as well as knowing that it isn't exactly as if his death is likely to end the violence (although obama could use bin laden's death to look to pull out of afghanistan and de-escelate our military industrial complex...not that i expect this) and something that keeps me somber and muted in my response.
PresIke wrote:Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.peace, silverfuel.
my feeling is that, sure, bin laden was killed in (what we are told was) a firefight when he realized he was being raided, which is to say that is different and perhaps more understandable than via a missle (which is what we are also being told was obama's call). i can also recognize the need for some closure for many people on the matter given the acts of violence and hatred he has had in his own response to acts of violence and perceived disrespect towards islam by the u.s. as a nation.
that is more than understandable, as is anger when we first experience loss, but when we hold onto that loss too anger, leading to improper approach to such emotions, and feel a need to act out so angrily by vehemently celebrating someone's death, i don't care who the perpetrator was, there is something else going on. it is also exactly such kind of reactions that have led to the same violence that we claim to want to end.
if we think about all of the thousands and thousands of innocent people, soliders, etc. who have died as a result of the quest to destroy this man, that is sure a lot of collateral damage, as well as knowing that it isn't exactly as if his death is likely to end the violence (although obama could use bin laden's death to look to pull out of afghanistan and de-escelate our military industrial complex...not that i expect this) and something that keeps me somber and muted in my response.
While I get where you are coming from, I think you fail to see the significance of this. Like others have mentioned, Bin Laden is a modern day Hitler, not because he killed so many people but because of howhe spread his evil throughout the world impacting the lives of hundreds of millions ina very negative way.
When I turn on the tv and see college and high school kids as the faces celebrating I am reminded that they have lived the majority if not all of their life under the dark cloud of fear this man helped propagate. Are others to blame? Sure. Could the US have done things differently? Yes.
But reality is that Bin Laden represented a special brand of evil reserved for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, and every other anti Christ who has plagued the world since humans first began walking the earth.
I don't think it's wrong to feel a little bit happy that part of that cloud disappeared with news of Bin Ladens death. I even believe that some of those peace loving quotes that have been mentioned would also say that today the world is a better place without Bin Laden.
Do we need to be careful of bloodlust? Yes we do. But we also cannot excuse this kind of ideology and turn the other cheek.
A lot of peeps I know are happy the mofo is swimming with fishies, including me. But I wouldn't advocate for knocking off tyrants or other despots. Bin Laden had it coming, and the entire world is rejoicing today, even the Saudi Wahhabists.
As for the Team America theme song, I would pay the price of a Knicks playoff game to watch in slow-mo the video from the helmet cams of those Navy Seals with "Phuck Yeah!" playing as the soundtrack.
OasisBU wrote:PresIke wrote:Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.peace, silverfuel.
my feeling is that, sure, bin laden was killed in (what we are told was) a firefight when he realized he was being raided, which is to say that is different and perhaps more understandable than via a missle (which is what we are also being told was obama's call). i can also recognize the need for some closure for many people on the matter given the acts of violence and hatred he has had in his own response to acts of violence and perceived disrespect towards islam by the u.s. as a nation.
that is more than understandable, as is anger when we first experience loss, but when we hold onto that loss too anger, leading to improper approach to such emotions, and feel a need to act out so angrily by vehemently celebrating someone's death, i don't care who the perpetrator was, there is something else going on. it is also exactly such kind of reactions that have led to the same violence that we claim to want to end.
if we think about all of the thousands and thousands of innocent people, soliders, etc. who have died as a result of the quest to destroy this man, that is sure a lot of collateral damage, as well as knowing that it isn't exactly as if his death is likely to end the violence (although obama could use bin laden's death to look to pull out of afghanistan and de-escelate our military industrial complex...not that i expect this) and something that keeps me somber and muted in my response.
While I get where you are coming from, I think you fail to see the significance of this. Like others have mentioned, Bin Laden is a modern day Hitler, not because he killed so many people but because of howhe spread his evil throughout the world impacting the lives of hundreds of millions ina very negative way.
When I turn on the tv and see college and high school kids as the faces celebrating I am reminded that they have lived the majority if not all of their life under the dark cloud of fear this man helped propagate. Are others to blame? Sure. Could the US have done things differently? Yes.
But reality is that Bin Laden represented a special brand of evil reserved for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, and every other anti Christ who has plagued the world since humans first began walking the earth.
I don't think it's wrong to feel a little bit happy that part of that cloud disappeared with news of Bin Ladens death. I even believe that some of those peace loving quotes that have been mentioned would also say that today the world is a better place without Bin Laden.
Do we need to be careful of bloodlust? Yes we do. But we also cannot excuse this kind of ideology and turn the other cheek.
respect, but i don't believe there is much evidence that osama bin laden is the same as hitler other than how he was portrayed as such by the propaganda of the media and the u.s. government (which is not to say he was not a threat to human life either, because he was). what are you basing such assertions on? bin laden's motivation for violence was not as far removed from the reasons the u.s. state justifies its own violence towards innocent people as i believe some of us realize. how so? threats to "the state" (in his case "the state" is islam, of course which is not a state) are considered acceptable to be taken out by military force, and sometimes there "has to be" collateral damage..
bin laden stated that the u.s. occupation of saudi arabia was a major insult to islam (or something to that effect), was supportive of repressive rulers in the region who suppressed peoples' ability to practice certain forms of islam, and that the u.s., in general, was seeking to destoy islam, to which he used historical evidence to support his views of american involvement in historically islamic nations. low levels of education and horrific economic conditions in many of these nations, combined with a sense of humiliation over all these conditions helped him attract followers. i ain't saying that's an okay way to view the world, or live, but it isn't about some anti-christ myth as much as an explainable way that human beings can be affected by their life exposure and circumstances.
one major difference i see is that bin laden overtly saw everyone against him as an enemy (although sounds a bit like bush's "you're with us or you're against us." no?), however at what point does collateral damage become reasonable when trying to get one man? i'll repeat, so many thousands of people have died in the hunt for this "anti-christ." you think they all believe it's okay to have sacrificed so many human lives as a result, especially when it is quite clear that his death is by no means the end of this "war" against a mostly invisible enemy that has no borders or normal form of functioning state to dismantle.
this outlines some of the reason bin laden's death is a much different situation. hitler was also a much greater threat than bin laden is because the nazis were on the verge of taking over all of europe (which bin laden never came even remotely close to achieving). bin laden was more of a symbolic leader to those that follow him. when hitler was taken out, world war ii (on the european front) was over. the same when tojo surrendered in japan. is the "war" we are fighting against bin laden and his followers now over? hardly.
however, there are similarities, as mentioned earlier, to what motivated their behavior, because hitler actually rose to power in similar ways to bin laden.
but overall, sorry, this is nothing to get too excited about. if by some miracle this leads to the end of these wars that have ruined so many things in the world and in this country as we spend ourselves into oblivion and ruin with so many military around the world, while our economy is still suffering, then i'll say it was worth the praise.
regardless, i am not saying that the u.s. should "turn the other cheek" either. read what i first wrote.
they attempted to apprehend him, sounds like he tried to fight back, he was shot and killed. that's what happens in police raids, and is part of the deal. however, this does not mean i need to celebrate the death with all of my might, especially considering the context.
Childs2Dudley wrote:Osama is the Hitler of our generation. The difference is his death will not end the war like it did in 1945. This battle will continue on and may not ever end. We are fighting people who are not human. They have no respect for humanity and therefore will not be treated with respect either. They've killed our people, people in Europe and around the world and even their own people. They are savages who deserve the fate they suffer. They brought it upon themselves. I am certainly not going to throw parades because a man is dead but God forgive me for being happy this disgrace to civilization is off the Earth. His time has come and now he must answer to the man above. I doubt there will be 72 virgins for where he's going.
not human? i'd be careful with that kind of talk, imho.
there is plenty of evidence to show that any human is vulnerable to similar behavior.
see the stanford prison experiment, just as one example.
bin laden was a horrible man, no doubt, and deserved some kind of consequence for for his actions.
PresIke wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:Osama is the Hitler of our generation. The difference is his death will not end the war like it did in 1945. This battle will continue on and may not ever end. We are fighting people who are not human. They have no respect for humanity and therefore will not be treated with respect either. They've killed our people, people in Europe and around the world and even their own people. They are savages who deserve the fate they suffer. They brought it upon themselves. I am certainly not going to throw parades because a man is dead but God forgive me for being happy this disgrace to civilization is off the Earth. His time has come and now he must answer to the man above. I doubt there will be 72 virgins for where he's going.not human? i'd be careful with that kind of talk, imho.
there is plenty of evidence to show that any human is vulnerable to similar behavior.
see the stanford prison experiment, just as one example.
bin laden was a horrible man, no doubt, and deserved some kind of consequence for for his actions.
To me he isn't a human. He has no respect for his fellow human beings. He has no brain damage that would make him go insane. He is simply a man born of evil.
PresIke wrote:OasisBU wrote:PresIke wrote:Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.peace, silverfuel.
my feeling is that, sure, bin laden was killed in (what we are told was) a firefight when he realized he was being raided, which is to say that is different and perhaps more understandable than via a missle (which is what we are also being told was obama's call). i can also recognize the need for some closure for many people on the matter given the acts of violence and hatred he has had in his own response to acts of violence and perceived disrespect towards islam by the u.s. as a nation.
that is more than understandable, as is anger when we first experience loss, but when we hold onto that loss too anger, leading to improper approach to such emotions, and feel a need to act out so angrily by vehemently celebrating someone's death, i don't care who the perpetrator was, there is something else going on. it is also exactly such kind of reactions that have led to the same violence that we claim to want to end.
if we think about all of the thousands and thousands of innocent people, soliders, etc. who have died as a result of the quest to destroy this man, that is sure a lot of collateral damage, as well as knowing that it isn't exactly as if his death is likely to end the violence (although obama could use bin laden's death to look to pull out of afghanistan and de-escelate our military industrial complex...not that i expect this) and something that keeps me somber and muted in my response.
While I get where you are coming from, I think you fail to see the significance of this. Like others have mentioned, Bin Laden is a modern day Hitler, not because he killed so many people but because of howhe spread his evil throughout the world impacting the lives of hundreds of millions ina very negative way.
When I turn on the tv and see college and high school kids as the faces celebrating I am reminded that they have lived the majority if not all of their life under the dark cloud of fear this man helped propagate. Are others to blame? Sure. Could the US have done things differently? Yes.
But reality is that Bin Laden represented a special brand of evil reserved for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, and every other anti Christ who has plagued the world since humans first began walking the earth.
I don't think it's wrong to feel a little bit happy that part of that cloud disappeared with news of Bin Ladens death. I even believe that some of those peace loving quotes that have been mentioned would also say that today the world is a better place without Bin Laden.
Do we need to be careful of bloodlust? Yes we do. But we also cannot excuse this kind of ideology and turn the other cheek.
respect, but i don't believe there is much evidence that osama bin laden is the same as hitler other than how he was portrayed as such by the propaganda of the media and the u.s. government (which is not to say he was not a threat to human life either, because he was). what are you basing such assertions on? bin laden's motivation for violence was not as far removed from the reasons the u.s. state justifies its own violence towards innocent people as i believe some of us realize. how so? threats to "the state" (in his case "the state" is islam, of course which is not a state) are considered acceptable to be taken out by military force, and sometimes there "has to be" collateral damage..
bin laden stated that the u.s. occupation of saudi arabia was a major insult to islam (or something to that effect), was supportive of repressive rulers in the region who suppressed peoples' ability to practice certain forms of islam, and that the u.s., in general, was seeking to destoy islam, to which he used historical evidence to support his views of american involvement in historically islamic nations. low levels of education and horrific economic conditions in many of these nations, combined with a sense of humiliation over all these conditions helped him attract followers. i ain't saying that's an okay way to view the world, or live, but it isn't about some anti-christ myth as much as an explainable way that human beings can be affected by their life exposure and circumstances.
one major difference i see is that bin laden overtly saw everyone against him as an enemy (although sounds a bit like bush's "you're with us or you're against us." no?), however at what point does collateral damage become reasonable when trying to get one man? i'll repeat, so many thousands of people have died in the hunt for this "anti-christ." you think they all believe it's okay to have sacrificed so many human lives as a result, especially when it is quite clear that his death is by no means the end of this "war" against a mostly invisible enemy that has no borders or normal form of functioning state to dismantle.
this outlines some of the reason bin laden's death is a much different situation. hitler was also a much greater threat than bin laden is because the nazis were on the verge of taking over all of europe (which bin laden never came even remotely close to achieving). bin laden was more of a symbolic leader to those that follow him. when hitler was taken out, world war ii (on the european front) was over. the same when tojo surrendered in japan. is the "war" we are fighting against bin laden and his followers now over? hardly.however, there are similarities, as mentioned earlier, to what motivated their behavior, because hitler actually rose to power in similar ways to bin laden.
but overall, sorry, this is nothing to get too excited about. if by some miracle this leads to the end of these wars that have ruined so many things in the world and in this country as we spend ourselves into oblivion and ruin with so many military around the world, while our economy is still suffering, then i'll say it was worth the praise.
regardless, i am not saying that the u.s. should "turn the other cheek" either. read what i first wrote.
they attempted to apprehend him, sounds like he tried to fight back, he was shot and killed. that's what happens in police raids, and is part of the deal. however, this does not mean i need to celebrate the death with all of my might, especially considering the context.
send closk
Your sentiment is correct, its just misplaced. The minute Obama started involving innocent civilians he became a coward. If he hadn't tried to hide among innocent civilians, there wouldn't have been any innocent civilian casualties. He chose to put those people at risk even though he knew he was a high value target. He could have hid in the mountains of Bora Bora if he really wanted to avoid putting innocent civilians in danger.
And yes, his death doesn't put an end to war but it does bring us closer to the end.
The Taliban is like all dick head orthodox who blame women for men being weak minded in matters related to sex. Its reasonable to have your daughter killed because she "insulted" the family? The whole 9/11 was tragic as it was an act of evil but 2800 lives lost is pretty phucked up but Japan just had like 28 THOUSAND get washed to sea, China had a recent earthquake/land slides kill an
estimated 300,000 lives lost.
Lets be real, we used 9/11 to galvanize a nation to enter a middle east war that we thought was about revenge and weapons of mass destruction but its about Sadam getting cash flow from UN sanctions lifted to buy new weapons and was actively exporting terror to suicide bombers in israel and the thin veil to instal democracy which is in fact starting to take hold in other countries.
Im not trying to be take away from those that lost but this country has had it pretty good in the phucked up department. Plagues in europe used to wipe out like 20% of the population. Wars are romantic but generations are changed from it. The damage in Europe to civilians in ww2 was massive. Especially in Russia.
Its nice we can take a moment and celebrate a victory until Fox News takes it like Obama did nothing.
Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:OasisBU wrote:PresIke wrote:Silverfuel wrote:PresIke wrote:haven't really read the comments here, but i wrote this on facebook this morning...does anyone teach their children to seek revenge, and engage in harm as a means of resolving conflicts? do we teach them to celebrate someone's death? as with osama bin laden, that does not mean there should be no consequences for one's actions, but the sort of celebration by some of his reported death has a frightingly jingoistic tone.
a friend of mine responded:
"Actually they do quite frequently in the Middle East. You should see the propaganda machine at work over here teaching babies to hate Israel. And I think I am about to be forced to sit through another one of their school indocrination assemblies on either Wednesday or Thursday. Seriously they show dead Muslims after battles in Palestine to kids in the 1st grade while playing patriotic and religious music and screaming death to Israel. It's fucked up and one of the things I don't like about this country."
i replied:
you make a good point, and it leads me to wonder about a possible factor behind young people in america being most of those shown reacting. certainly, there is a natural tendency for young people to be excited about events that evoke a sense of hope for changing society/establishing a new identity from their parents -- obama's election being one example. so, spending most of ones formative years as a child in the paradigm of post-september 11th u.s. life, with constant indoctrination regarding 'the war on terror', resulted in a diminished sense of hope, loss of "normal" childhood experiences, and a desire to move past this.
another friend posted something else i was thinking:
"this news immediately made me think of the video footage of children (supposedly) cheering because of the 9/11 attacks, and how disgusted americans were with the footage."
another wrote this:
"Our society is a violent one. And yes we do teach our kids to resolve conflict violently and that one must be right all the time."
As someone who works in a school this contradictory message is something i see as a problem. when we try to mediate conflict amongst students the fact that not merely some parents, but our society perhaps still values revenge seeking through violence as a legitimate form of justice.
i saw a commentator say that the reactions about bin laden's death are about justice.
if a "jihadi" is willing to blow themself up as a form of justice, or that the u.s. was so concerned with the manner in which bin laden's death was carried out, then are we really certain that death is the best form of "justice" for someone who has committed mass murder?
what about the number of innocent civilian pakistanis and afghanis that have been killed by u.s. drone attacks and other military actions?
where is the justice, from the perspective of their families and society, for their death towards the u.s.?
from the perspective of those who cheered for the september 11 attacks, that event was a form of justice.
can we not see the problem with using killing someone as an even useful or respectful form of justice?
i stood on 6th avenue when the sept. 11th attacks began and never thought that the actions of mass war on "terror" was a justifiable manner of handling what happened. this is not to say no response should have taken place either.
peace.
You make some very good points. There is a time and place this applies to. But Bin Laden does not belong to that time and place. There are some problems only fighting can solve. They hit NYC, we hit Afghanistan and Iraq. And on and on it goes. War, hate and violence will go on forever. The only way we stop fighting each other is to fight a common enemy.peace, silverfuel.
my feeling is that, sure, bin laden was killed in (what we are told was) a firefight when he realized he was being raided, which is to say that is different and perhaps more understandable than via a missle (which is what we are also being told was obama's call). i can also recognize the need for some closure for many people on the matter given the acts of violence and hatred he has had in his own response to acts of violence and perceived disrespect towards islam by the u.s. as a nation.
that is more than understandable, as is anger when we first experience loss, but when we hold onto that loss too anger, leading to improper approach to such emotions, and feel a need to act out so angrily by vehemently celebrating someone's death, i don't care who the perpetrator was, there is something else going on. it is also exactly such kind of reactions that have led to the same violence that we claim to want to end.
if we think about all of the thousands and thousands of innocent people, soliders, etc. who have died as a result of the quest to destroy this man, that is sure a lot of collateral damage, as well as knowing that it isn't exactly as if his death is likely to end the violence (although obama could use bin laden's death to look to pull out of afghanistan and de-escelate our military industrial complex...not that i expect this) and something that keeps me somber and muted in my response.
While I get where you are coming from, I think you fail to see the significance of this. Like others have mentioned, Bin Laden is a modern day Hitler, not because he killed so many people but because of howhe spread his evil throughout the world impacting the lives of hundreds of millions ina very negative way.
When I turn on the tv and see college and high school kids as the faces celebrating I am reminded that they have lived the majority if not all of their life under the dark cloud of fear this man helped propagate. Are others to blame? Sure. Could the US have done things differently? Yes.
But reality is that Bin Laden represented a special brand of evil reserved for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, and every other anti Christ who has plagued the world since humans first began walking the earth.
I don't think it's wrong to feel a little bit happy that part of that cloud disappeared with news of Bin Ladens death. I even believe that some of those peace loving quotes that have been mentioned would also say that today the world is a better place without Bin Laden.
Do we need to be careful of bloodlust? Yes we do. But we also cannot excuse this kind of ideology and turn the other cheek.
respect, but i don't believe there is much evidence that osama bin laden is the same as hitler other than how he was portrayed as such by the propaganda of the media and the u.s. government (which is not to say he was not a threat to human life either, because he was). what are you basing such assertions on? bin laden's motivation for violence was not as far removed from the reasons the u.s. state justifies its own violence towards innocent people as i believe some of us realize. how so? threats to "the state" (in his case "the state" is islam, of course which is not a state) are considered acceptable to be taken out by military force, and sometimes there "has to be" collateral damage..
bin laden stated that the u.s. occupation of saudi arabia was a major insult to islam (or something to that effect), was supportive of repressive rulers in the region who suppressed peoples' ability to practice certain forms of islam, and that the u.s., in general, was seeking to destoy islam, to which he used historical evidence to support his views of american involvement in historically islamic nations. low levels of education and horrific economic conditions in many of these nations, combined with a sense of humiliation over all these conditions helped him attract followers. i ain't saying that's an okay way to view the world, or live, but it isn't about some anti-christ myth as much as an explainable way that human beings can be affected by their life exposure and circumstances.
one major difference i see is that bin laden overtly saw everyone against him as an enemy (although sounds a bit like bush's "you're with us or you're against us." no?), however at what point does collateral damage become reasonable when trying to get one man? i'll repeat, so many thousands of people have died in the hunt for this "anti-christ." you think they all believe it's okay to have sacrificed so many human lives as a result, especially when it is quite clear that his death is by no means the end of this "war" against a mostly invisible enemy that has no borders or normal form of functioning state to dismantle.
this outlines some of the reason bin laden's death is a much different situation. hitler was also a much greater threat than bin laden is because the nazis were on the verge of taking over all of europe (which bin laden never came even remotely close to achieving). bin laden was more of a symbolic leader to those that follow him. when hitler was taken out, world war ii (on the european front) was over. the same when tojo surrendered in japan. is the "war" we are fighting against bin laden and his followers now over? hardly.however, there are similarities, as mentioned earlier, to what motivated their behavior, because hitler actually rose to power in similar ways to bin laden.
but overall, sorry, this is nothing to get too excited about. if by some miracle this leads to the end of these wars that have ruined so many things in the world and in this country as we spend ourselves into oblivion and ruin with so many military around the world, while our economy is still suffering, then i'll say it was worth the praise.
regardless, i am not saying that the u.s. should "turn the other cheek" either. read what i first wrote.
they attempted to apprehend him, sounds like he tried to fight back, he was shot and killed. that's what happens in police raids, and is part of the deal. however, this does not mean i need to celebrate the death with all of my might, especially considering the context.
send closkYour sentiment is correct, its just misplaced. The minute Obama started involving innocent civilians he became a coward. If he hadn't tried to hide among innocent civilians, there wouldn't have been any innocent civilian casualties. He chose to put those people at risk even though he knew he was a high value target. He could have hid in the mountains of Bora Bora if he really wanted to avoid putting innocent civilians in danger.
And yes, his death doesn't put an end to war but it does bring us closer to the end.
When Israel hunted and killed escaped Nazis like Eichmann and is killing terrorist now there was no and will not be any celebration.
They just show that nobody will escape the justice. And there is nothing to celebrate.
It is the time to look back and remember the victims of Bin Laden and his terror network and pray for them.
The culture layer of the people is still thin. It may be more of it in US that in middle edged Middle East but still not too much.
You need thousand years of oppression and humiliation to understand that there is nothing in death to celebrate.
let us not let such silliness and media distractions downplay the fact that bin laden deserved to die. this guy murdered thousands of innocent people -- fact. that he went down like a coward using a woman shield while firing on US troops in his fortified compound thousands of miles away from his other "jihadists" was a fitting end for a detestable character. i did not go outside and start hooting and hollering and waving the american flag like hacksaw jim duggan but i was happy and relieved that bin laden was dead, and i think i am justified in feeling that way. this guy was the sworn enemy of every american citizen, of the western world at large.
presike you write bin laden represents the "state of islam" but he certainly does not. bin laden is condemned by tens of millions of muslims, if not hundreds of millions, worldwide (actual stats are hard to come by). many of them also celebrated his death, as millions of muslims are looked at with distrust and suspicion because of bin laden's promotion, design, and funding of acts of violence on innocent people across the world. they have him to thank, and many no doubt are happy that he has perished.
the peaceful revolutions in tunisia and egypt show that change can come in the middle eastern world and it does not need to come through his twisted view of violence and intolerance.
Fact: the world is a better place without osama bin laden. this is reason to feel great joy.
Childs2Dudley wrote:I saw a mention of Israel just now and let us not act like they are innocent in all of this. They have their own faults. Their treatment of the Palestinian people is pathetic at best. Maybe they aren't terrorists but they certainly are not saints.
They are treating Palestinian terrorist same as we are treating Osama.
As I said it is nothing to celebrate.
Just kill them before they kill more innocent people including their own which they used like live shilds on the way to their terrorist heaven.
They must know that every rocket they fire, every suicide belt they explode, every women and child they kill will not be left without retribution.
They will be hunted all their miserable life, found and destroyed.