Off Topic · Spoiler Alert - A Song of Ice and Fire - Discussion on Martin's novels to date (page 1)

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So, I just finished A Dance w/ Dragons. Can't say I'm too happy and I need to talk about it after investing in the 1000 page novel....this is a spoiler alert, so stop reading if you haven't read all of the novels yet.

Why would Martin kill off Snow? So annoyed right now and maybe he comes back as some Wight or something, but I am so pissed right now. I feel like Martin wastes so much time on building these ancillary plots and characters only to have them killed - Qwentyn Martell for example! Snow was becoming one of my favorite story lines. So, who do we have left from the original that still interests me? Arya is about it. Cannot stand the Dany and Cersei stories anymore, although the end w/ her uncle getting killed by Varys was pretty cool.

Does anyone know what is going on w/ Rickon? Of all the Starks that started the series, most are dead and I'm hoping Martin brings them back to prominence. I guess I have a soft side for that family. Sorry to complain, but I'm feeling a bit exasperated right now.

Martin writes Novels in addition to running this here web site? I'm impressed.

I think Melisandre drops a few hints about the Lord Commander's death. She tells him to make sure that Ghost is always at his side and then her visions. Also, Snow's last thoughts at the end of the and the fact that Martin chose Varamyr Six Skins as the opening character in the prologue lead me to believe that Martin has more in store for Jon. That's my two cents.

BasketballJones wrote:Martin writes Novels in addition to running this here web site? I'm impressed.

Multi-tasking.

jusnice wrote:SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!! SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

Why would Martin kill off Snow? So annoyed right now and maybe he comes back as some Wight or something, but I am so pissed right now. I feel like Martin wastes so much time on building these ancillary plots and characters only to have them killed - Qwentyn Martell for example! Snow was becoming one of my favorite story lines. So, who do we have left from the original that still interests me? Arya is about it. Cannot stand the Dany and Cersei stories anymore, although the end w/ her uncle getting killed by Varys was pretty cool.

Does anyone know what is going on w/ Rickon? Of all the Starks that started the series, most are dead and I'm hoping Martin brings them back to prominence. I guess I have a soft side for that family. Sorry to complain, but I'm feeling a bit exasperated right now.

I felt the same, Jusnice. When I read that section of John Snow getting killed I just went outside and vented. But most people don't feel that Jon Snow is dead or will remain dead. So many other characters escape death. Jon has a bigger role to play in the story.

Who do you think were Jon Snow's parents?
Most people do not believe that Ned was his real father. This is the biggest controvery. Many hints otherwise. I believe, and many others do as well, that Jon's parents were Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. Then Jon wouldn't be Jon Snow the bastard, but rather Jon Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne.

The problem with this book was that it became too long so they cut the last 3 or 4 chapters. Conflicts didn't get fully resolved and we are left hanging.

Rickon seems to be on the island of Skagos, off the northeast shore of Westeros. According to legend cannibals live there so everyone stays away. Davos was sent by Wyman Manderly to find Rickon and bring him back.

Thanks for the insight, and maybe Jon isn't dead, I wouldn't put it past Martin. I guess I'm just exhausted after all of the hours reading these novels and felt exasperated that one of my favorite characters is over and done with. Since Cat is still walking around after death, perhaps Jon will be too. How long do you think we'll have to wait for the next novel to come out?

martin wrote:

BasketballJones wrote:Martin writes Novels in addition to running this here web site? I'm impressed.

Multi-tasking.

He only get's away with it because of the crack interns he keeps on staff. Right, Bip?

jusnice wrote:Thanks for the insight, and maybe Jon isn't dead, I wouldn't put it past Martin. I guess I'm just exhausted after all of the hours reading these novels and felt exasperated that one of my favorite characters is over and done with. Since Cat is still walking around after death, perhaps Jon will be too. How long do you think we'll have to wait for the next novel to come out?

The next novel could take another 3 to 5 years, unfortunately. GRRM (George RR Martin) is originally from Bayonne but worked in California writing for TV shows and now New Mexico. He's forgotten how impatient New Yorkers are. We want it in a NY minute.

Jon isn't dead. Never was written that Jon was dead. Just after getting stabbed a few times, he became unconsciousness. But it did give the allusion to Jon being dead.
Guesswork spoiler -
If Jon is part House Stark whose theme is ICE; and part House Targaryen, whose theme and weapons are FIRE, then Jon is the embodiment of "A Song of Ice and Fire".

If you want to read a forum where people discuss all of the details of the series then this site is a good one. Spoilers alert!
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/

It's for those who have read all of the books. Go to the older posts first from the first book. Some excellent discussion.

Good stuff Mark, thanks. I'll check it out. Do you think Rickon becomes a main character in the next two novels?

jusnice wrote:Good stuff Mark, thanks. I'll check it out. Do you think Rickon becomes a main character in the next two novels?

I think a little bit more since Davos went to find him so there will be some new adventure with that. But Rickon is only 5 or 6 yrs old. Maybe 7 by next book. Kind of young to play a major part. I am looking forward to seeing what Arya is going to do. She and Jon are my favorite characters also.

Markji wrote:

jusnice wrote:Good stuff Mark, thanks. I'll check it out. Do you think Rickon becomes a main character in the next two novels?

I think a little bit more since Davos went to find him so there will be some new adventure with that. But Rickon is only 5 or 6 yrs old. Maybe 7 by next book. Kind of young to play a major part. I am looking forward to seeing what Arya is going to do. She and Jon are my favorite characters also.

Assuming that Bolton's bastard lied about defeating Stannis's forces, where would that leave Lord Manderly and his agreement with Davos? With no Davos around, it will be hard for the fat man to prove that he has been working with Stannis all along. If Stannis is dead, than the plan falls apart anyway. Manderly has the wealth, but I'm not sure he has the men to establish the Starks as the ruling lords of the north again. Then again, Manderly could be working with someone else.

On a side note, I fear that Martin won't be able to finish the series given his age and health. I haven't been this nervous since Stephen King had that serious accident during the Dark Tower series.

Markji wrote:

jusnice wrote:Good stuff Mark, thanks. I'll check it out. Do you think Rickon becomes a main character in the next two novels?

I think a little bit more since Davos went to find him so there will be some new adventure with that. But Rickon is only 5 or 6 yrs old. Maybe 7 by next book. Kind of young to play a major part. I am looking forward to seeing what Arya is going to do. She and Jon are my favorite characters also.

I tried looking at the forum you shared - way too many threads to navigate, wow, there are some serious fans out there!!

I guess I have a soft spot for the Starks since it all started with them and the wolves. I'm getting a little tired of Martin's style and really hope he can bring it all together in these next two novels. I agree with BigDaddy, I don't want Martin to go all Robert Jordan on us and end up having his last novel split into like three different novels...but, my gut tells me he already has most of this stuff written.

With Bran going all nature on us and turning into something I don't fully understand, (what is that by the way) I feel like either Ayra wins the throne in the end...what do you guys think?

jusnice wrote:

Markji wrote:

jusnice wrote:Good stuff Mark, thanks. I'll check it out. Do you think Rickon becomes a main character in the next two novels?

I think a little bit more since Davos went to find him so there will be some new adventure with that. But Rickon is only 5 or 6 yrs old. Maybe 7 by next book. Kind of young to play a major part. I am looking forward to seeing what Arya is going to do. She and Jon are my favorite characters also.

I tried looking at the forum you shared - way too many threads to navigate, wow, there are some serious fans out there!!

I guess I have a soft spot for the Starks since it all started with them and the wolves. I'm getting a little tired of Martin's style and really hope he can bring it all together in these next two novels. I agree with BigDaddy, I don't want Martin to go all Robert Jordan on us and end up having his last novel split into like three different novels...but, my gut tells me he already has most of this stuff written.

With Bran going all nature on us and turning into something I don't fully understand, (what is that by the way) I feel like either Ayra wins the throne in the end...what do you guys think?

It will be hard for Arya since she is a female. Women in Westeros have little value politically unless they are being used as a bargaining chip for marriage. Plus, Sansa is older and has, arguably, the games most cunning player by her side. The Stark's hopes for the north fall on the little shoulders of Rickon for the time being and Rickon's situation is tenuous.

How long do you guys think Theon will last. Stannis could make a big statement to the rest of the north by executing the man who betrayed the Winterfell.

Amazing how I felt some sympahty for Reek after what he did to Winterfell (even though he spared the kids). I'd like to see him live and redeem himself, possibly have a part to play in saving the Stark bloodline and re-establishing Winterfell.

Do you think Winter is really coming? Like, will GRRM build to a climax that includes a prolonged winter with no end in sight or do you think winter has arrived and GRRM will climax with a new Spring?

The titles of the next 2 Books are
Book 6 - The Winds of Winter
Book 7 - A Dream of Spring

So I think the series will end with the defeat of Winter and the Others, a rebirth of peace in the Kingdoms and a Return of the King who will sit the Iron Throne. Spring is the season of rebirth and Awakening. Similar ending to Lord of the Rings.

Jusnice - I'll try to direct you to one or 2 threads. There are some people with incredible knowledge of the books and especially the foreshadowing and little hints the George Martin throws in throughout the books.
I had a double hernia operation last week and so I've been down and trying to recover.

My feeling is that Bran will take over the seat in Winterfell. Just a feeling and a few clues. Bran wanted to be a knight, but being crippled he couldn't. but still he knew and used the courtesies of a Lord to his underlords. He is being trained to be the good, wise Lord. I don't think his destiny is to meld into a tree like Bloodraven. Remember, Bloodraven keeps telling him that he will fly.

A little clue to me about Bran was when Robb, his older brother and Lord of Winterfell when their father was killed, met with the war council. Robb sat in his usual chair which was beside his fathers, the Chair of the Lord of Winterfell. When Bran was carried in, he had Hodor place Bran in their father's chair, perhaps a clue meaning that Bran would be the Lord of Winterfell. It may seem insignificant but these are the little hints that George Martin throws out throughout the novels and keeps everyone guessing.

I am waiting to see what Arya will become. Will she become an assassin, a faceless man, or a "She-Wolf", bond with Nymeria and kick some ass back in Westeros. She is exciting, willful, totally uninhibited and unpredictable. One of my favorite characters.

Big D - Yes Theon. He has changes so much from the irresponsible ward of Ned Stark; to conqueror of Winterfell; to prisoner; to Reek; and then savior of the pretending Arya. I think he will regain some of his dignity and hopefully die heroically.

BigDaddyG wrote:On a side note, I fear that Martin won't be able to finish the series given his age and health. I haven't been this nervous since Stephen King had that serious accident during the Dark Tower series.

I am with you on this....as well as most of the fans of the series. I wish he would put out the books more quickly. His mind is really clear and sharp though if you see him in any of the interviews he does.

Another question, can he really finish the series in 2 more books or will he have to add another book? The last book didn't complete its story lines. Besides Jon, what happened to Stannis and Bolton? Dany's stay in Mereen is still up in the air as well as all of the people who are searching for her who were going to meet up with her. Victarian, Tyrion, Marwyn the Maester. Quentyn was the only one to reach Dany but he got toasted. At least his storyline is finished.

Mark, what forums do you think I should look into in detail - that site is too damn massive for me to navigate on my own...Thanks!

jusnice wrote:Mark, what forums do you think I should look into in detail - that site is too damn massive for me to navigate on my own...Thanks!

I started reading that site after I read Book 4 which came out 6 yrs ago. That was when I had started the series. Then I dropped it until Book 5 came out. The forum started opening my eyes to all of the hidden things GRRM put into the books. Maybe I like mysteries and puzzles? It was the "aha experience" happening many times. Quite a rush actually.

When I first read the series, I just thought they were great adventure, fantasy novels. Now when I read, I am always looking for the hidden clues. I did re-read the series and was utterly amazed at all the things I missed the first time. I usually never re-read books, but this was worth it. At least to me.

Here's a quote from a poster 6 yrs ago which pretty much sums up what to expect in the books.

Anyone that reads the series knows that things you thought to have been true or never had expected, happen at any moment.

Here is a thread discussing mostly who were Jon Snow's parents. There are 14 threads of 300 + posts each discussing this. Probably the most contentious of any of the arguments.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/top...

This part of the Westeros webpages isn't a forum. Called "The Citadel". It explains a lot of the thinking and going's on. Sorry, this is probably a huge undertaking also.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entr...

Another site - Who are Jon Snow's parents? Gives a much better discussion: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/...

For fun.....Google did a live interview of Geo. Martin. Quite good and interesting and you get to hear the thinking of the author. He is quite entertaining.

I'll leave you with a tantalizing mystery from Book 5 to think about.
Who do you think Septa LeMore really is?
Who do you think Aegon really is, who Septa LeMore taught and helped raise?

Markji wrote:I'll leave you with a tantalizing mystery from Book 5 to think about.
Who do you think Septa LeMore really is?
Who do you think Aegon really is, who Septa LeMore taught and helped raise?

I think Aegon is really Aegon. I don't think Conningtong would lie about that and It's simple enough to switch infants. Aegon's sister on the other hand would have been tougher to fake. As for leMore, it's obvious that she wasn't a Septa. Tyrion made that point crystal clear with his observation. Maybe it's the Dayne broad that Ned Stark allegedly 'deflowered'?

I have other questions. What ever happened to Ned Dayne? He is the last of a notable line and it would be a shame for it to die out. And where is Cat Stark's uncle, the one who escaped the Lannister encroachment up to? Is someone hiding him or is he dead? Also,there has been a lot of discussion over who will carry out the Stark name, but we still don't have any idea what happened to Benjen? Is it possible that the three-eyed crow saved him and sent him on another mission?

Last thing, three-eyes made it a point to tell Bran to embrace the darkness and the shadows. This is in contrast to Melisandre's beliefs. At one point Melisandre even sees three-eyes in her flames and assumes that he is the enemy. Are the 'others' really soldiers of the Old God of the North and is Bran working for the enemy? Are the Others really the enemy?

BigDaddyG wrote:

Markji wrote:I'll leave you with a tantalizing mystery from Book 5 to think about.
Who do you think Septa LeMore really is?
Who do you think Aegon really is, who Septa LeMore taught and helped raise?

I think Aegon is really Aegon. I don't think Conningtong would lie about that and It's simple enough to switch infants. Aegon's sister on the other hand would have been tougher to fake.

First, I want to make clear that I don't have all the answers, just opinions and educated guesses using some facts/hints from the books. Other people find different facts/hints and bring them up. So it is fun to consider and discuss and eventually we'll all find out.

I do believe that Aegon as a baby was switched and not killed by Ser Gregor when the Lannisters sacked the castle. But I don't believe this is the real Aegon. I think Connington believes it is, as does Ashara. It could be.

But I am leaning this to be Illyrio's son from his second wife. She had the same look as the Targaryen/Valyrians.
Illyrio in his youth was a mighty warrior. The sculture of the young warrior in his gardens was of himself as a young man. But now he was fat and old.

Third, Tyrion keeps asking Illyrio whats in it for him. To restore the Targaryens. He already has a huge amt of money, comforts, luxuries, more than he would have in Westeros. Why risk it all.?

And Illyrio was really disappointed when he wasn't allowed to travel all the way to see Griff and especially Young Griff/Aegon.

As for leMore, it's obvious that she wasn't a Septa. Tyrion made that point crystal clear with his observation. Maybe it's the Dayne broad that Ned Stark allegedly 'deflowered'?

I agree that Septa LeMore is really Ashara Dayne, who supposedly killed herself but her body was never found - washed out to sea. After reading all of the books its become a theme that people who supposedly were killed or died, weren't really dead. Connington calls her "My Lady" indicating she is of high birth. Tyrion notices her stretch marks - that she had a baby. Barriston Selmy, in recollecting about Ashara Dayne, that she had a baby girl, supposedly still-born. Ashara was part of the court at Kings Landing and a friend of Rhaegar's wife, Elia, so Ashara would be the appropriate one to help raise Elia's son, Aegon, in secret.

I have other questions. What ever happened to Ned Dayne? He is the last of a notable line and it would be a shame for it to die out.

Good question. Don't know. He is still with the "Outlaws" the Brotherhood without Banners" as far as I recall. Probably next book we'll hear more.

And where is Cat Stark's uncle, the one who escaped the Lannister encroachment up to? Is someone hiding him or is he dead?

Also good question. Don't know? But I am sure he will resurface.

Also,there has been a lot of discussion over who will carry out the Stark name, but we still don't have any idea what happened to Benjen? Is it possible that the three-eyed crow saved him and sent him on another mission?

?Could be? Some people think Coldhands is/was Benjen Stark. Both were Rangers of the Night's watch, and Coldhands is playing a significant role in the book. However he is gruffer than Benjen and one would think Bran would recognize him if he was Bran's uncle. Also, it seems Coldhands has been dead for a long time. Benjen has been missing for just 1 or 2 years.

Last thing, three-eyes made it a point to tell Bran to embrace the darkness and the shadows. This is in contrast to Melisandre's beliefs. At one point Melisandre even sees three-eyes in her flames and assumes that he is the enemy. Are the 'others' really soldiers of the Old God of the North and is Bran working for the enemy? Are the Others really the enemy?

These are great points. I really don't have an answer. Maybe Jusnice or yourself have some ideas? It will be interesting to see how these different religions play out in the following books. This is another thing I love about the books. George Martin has made up at least 6 religions in depth, and made them fit in nicely with the people of the different regions according to their geography, climate and customs. It is quite incredible. And then he has woven the religions into the plot so well.

So much to think about...I am confused and have few answers. The Septa ain't a Septa, not sure who she is. The Blackfish will come back and play a role for sure. He's not dead. I originally thought that Cold Hands was Benjen, but now Mark is making me reconsider this given the age comment. I just don't understand what Cold Hands is and what his purpose is in helping Bran if he isn't Benjen. Why would he have let Samwell escape and why would he have some good in him when other brothers who have been turned do not??? Confused.

I am also very confused by what is happening to Bran. What is this underworld he is in and who is the tree man?

The only thing I firmly believe is that Arya will have a huge role in what comes next. I don't think she becomes an assasin or stays with the Faceless Men. It seems that she is learning something in each of her phases of life and that she will turn into this very well rounded, very dangerous woman. Part of me thinks she teams up with Dany since they seem to have strong moral values and aren't all about power and killing.

The Dany plot line is getting a bit old. Does anyone talk about how she must learn to control these dragons or they really aren't an asset to her at all?