Knicks · are the Knicks going to be a real team this year? Or just more pump and dump? (page 2)

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

I'm a bit worried- I thought we would have a pretty good chance to round off our roster this year with the amnesty- but now the cba has been (almost) finalized, it's pretty much going to be impossible. Firstly, the fact that the amnesty doesn't have to be used this year means a lot of teams will hold on to players they otherwise would have cut, reducing the number of amnestied players out there.

Secondly this secondary waivers thing is a complete disaster for us- teams under the cap will get first shot at picking up these players, and when you look at Denver (I think only 7 players under contract) and the Hornets (desperate to get better players to please CP and also only have 6 players under contract), those two teams alone are going to scoop up any half decent amnestied player.

When you also factor in that teams will have to spend 85% of the cap this year, that also screws us because it means those teams with very low salary committments (eg the Kings), are going to have to overpay marginal talents who we otherwise could have maybe got on a 1 year contract. As for any ring chasing vets- we'll be competing against the Heat and Boston, two teams that can offer plenty of minutes and are a lot closer to a ring than we are.

I really don't see how we are going to pick up any okay-ish player for this season. Maybe we trade Tony Douglas or Bill Walker for Robin Lopez or some other marginal front court player- but even that will be a long shot.

To think a few weeks ago I thought we could get Brandon Haywood and Mike Miller! Oh well- maybe we get lucky with Iman.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'll predict 34-32. I sure hope I'm wrong.

damn 34-32?? that's a bit dire dont you think? i get that there are questions about this team winning a championship, since defense is a big questionm, but if there is ever a team that is built for the regular season it's this one.

Yeah I had a feeling people would say that. I was not impressed with how they looked last year post-trade. There's uncertainty about Amare's and Billups' health and Carmelo had multiple injuries and I think multiple surgeries. I've always thought that even the healthy Carmelo was a chucker who didn't help his teams very much. I'm not as critical of him as most of the Denver fans are but I've never been a supporter of him. Carmelo did play better with the Knicks than he has in most of his career and if he continues to play at that level, then I would revise my prediction to more like 38-28. People have a tendency to read way too much into small samples though.

whoa... the Knicks will be better than .500

Evil is probably closest to the regular season win total.

The only way the Knicks are around .500 is if Melo or Amare miss significant time.

They may not be big, they are a poor defensive team but they have a pair of all star forwards and you figure most nights the Knicks will have the best player on the court, if not the TWO best players. You can also hate on MDA all you want but he wins games with talent.

The Knicks will be GOOD.

I HATE the Melo trade because its locks us into being GOOD.

The problem is we will lose a 4/5 or 3/6 matchup again vs. the Celtics, and we are in NO position to overtake the Heat, Bulls or the Magic anytime soon. Hell, the Hawks look better than us and thats just in the EAST.

Im not excited about that.

Melo is uber talented, and he's no Steph. He's a good guy. Hell.. I root for him when I watched. I dont want to see the guy fail. There's plenty about his game to like and focus on. He's an all star and will win us plenty of games. He's just the guy you trade your roster for.

We shall see. I have my doubts but hopefully you are right.

Stats are over rated. 2 top 15 players that are both known to be scorers but we only have 1 ball. You can say Melo is great rebounder, I can also argue he leaves his guy opent to grab the rebound. Truth is, we haven't watched the 2 learn to coexist with each other, more importantly develop a system with the rest of the team.

This shortened schedule favors teams that already have an identity, that have chemistry, players that know their roles, and similar team from last year or for a couple of years.
We are not in that position. We know our most needed position that needs a huge upgrade to bring us to the next level is the center position. Unfortunately, many of us know that yet are excited to add another offensive weapon. Sammy D is already hinting he would prefer Miami while the Knick's were mentioned after. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we will be looking to add anything significant players that would require more than a 1 year deal.

Not many players are willing to gamble, taking a 1 year deal and risking injury. I am not even sure if we can use the MLE for 1 year only, I always though it was at least a 2 year deal with a 1 year player option. But if we can use the MLE for one year, our choices are limited.
Most likely, only players that are still young (similar to what Felton did last summer), and feel they can earn a much bigger contract.
Examples *Aaron Gray, Fesenko, Josh McRoberts, Earl Clark*
Then there is the possibility of veterans that are passed the prime of the careers, closer to their end of the careers that would sacrifice a long term deal. Or players that were injured and are looking to boost their value.
Examples * Prizbilla, Jeff Foster, Kurt Thomas, Etan Thomas, Troy Murphy, Melvin Ely, Magloire, Jason Collins, Dampier, Kwame Brown, Francisco Elson, Ratliff, Reggie Evans*

These are just some of the players that are Free Agents, most are centers and some PF's. Some would be candidates for a simple one year veterans minimum. However we only have 1 or 2 roster spots, assuming all of our players comes back, with Shawne Wiliams. I am not interested in all these players, just listing what is available.

Billups
Shumpert
Melo
Stat
Turiaf

TD
Fields
Jorts
Balkman
Walker

Rautins
Brown
==========================================================
All players above are under contract

Shawne Williams?
Jerome Jordan?
Jared Jeffries?

It seems like Shawne Williams has genuine interest in returning, however, I think it would take more than a 1 year deal and a veteran minimum. I actually like Shawne Williams, he isn't afraid to the dirty work and is a tough player. He is a role player that would mainly be used to give Melo rest. I am not sure if he can guard SG's however, I think he has a better shot with SG's than most PF's. So he isn't as versatile or skilled like Wilson Chandler or Shane Battier. He is a role player that focuses on play defense first and also can hit the 3's even if its only consistent in a couple of spots. He won me when he stood up for himself and the team with the mini fight vs the Atlanta Hawks with Marvin Williams last year. With that said, it depends on how much it would take to keep him on the roster. I feel he is replaceable but since he played pretty well after the trade, knows his role, has experience with Dantoni, and gelled with team, I wouldn't mind keeping him at the right price. I am looking at about a total of 4-5 mill for 3 years. Grant Hill is a player that should also cost within that range, probably slightly more. Aside from Spencer Hayes, I didn't include any players that are restricted FA's.

While players like Shane Battier and Prince can probably play a better the same role but even better, it will cost more and most likely more than a 1 year deal. I highly doubt we will take this road but if one of these players are willing to take a 1 year MLE some players we should keep an eye on are

Sammuel Dalembert, Kris Humphries, Spencer Hayes, Glen Davis
Wilson Chandler, Battier, Prince, Caron Butler

Most of these players will probably not sign for the minimum, their range should be between the vet minimum to MLE. Some shooters and players that we should keep an eye on include

Anthony Parker, Kapono, Peja, Redd, James Jones, Dunleavey, Shannon Brown *he really improved his shot last year* Marquis Daniels

some other cheap talents include

Brandon Wright, i don't think the Nets picked up his option, if so he would be a free agent. He is only 24, drafted at 8th overall pick in 2007 draft, 6'10" with a 7'4' wingspan but hasn't shown he can contribute in the league consistently. We don't have much roster spots, but if we can get him for the minimum it would be a low risk high reward.

Leon Powe, Tj Ford, Delonte West, Jamario Moon, Joe Smith, Mo Evans, Ronnie Price, Earl Watson, and D league players

At some point, I think the Knicks should cut some players to free roster spots.

I think we should add
2 Centers, players that can play solid defense and block shots at the CENTER position and 1 PF/C. Joel Prizbilla, Jeff Foster, Sean Williams
2 Sg/SF( Shawne Williams could be one) Grant Hill, Brandon Wright
1-2 shooters with range that would spread the floor. One dead eye shooter like Anthony Parker, Kapono, Redd, Peja. The other could be a SG/SF like Dunleavy

so I would say about 5 roster spots, when we only have 2, assuming Jordan stays in Europe. Candidates include
Rautins
Walker
Balkman

I am not sure if its worth the risk to use the Amnesty clause on Balkman, it just doesn't seem to justify it unless, we have a 3rd Star making a commitment to sign with us.
Since we are most likely going for this "3rd star" next summer, I believe we wouldn't be able to keep Fields. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we wouldn't be able to sign Fields under the rules of the old CBA. If we use the rest of our cap to sign a FA, we wouldn't be able to offer Fields a contract or match an offer by a team?\
If so, it would seem to be the smart thing to trade him when his value is at his highest. Would we be able to do a sign and trade next summer?
I know many of you are high on this kid, I am not too intrigued by him. However, I do want to give him some more time and see where he goes from there.

If it is true that we unable retain him, our options include using Fields for the rest of the year and letting him walk for nothing. Or trading him before the deadline, unless its possible to trade him on draft day?

Well, we finally have a season to look for and we all hope it will benefit us like the 99-2000 year. I am looking forward to seeing how Shumpert develops and matches up with the NBA.
I think TD game will be greatly benefited with the acquisition of Shumpert. I think he might be best suited as a change of temple 6th man type player, that can come in play defense and hit 3' pointers, with Shump handling the rock, making the decisions, and taking the pressure of TD. We still need a protector of the paint that can alter and block shots.

Shumpert and Fields might have some value in a trade. I am not sure what the plan is for Rautins. As a 25 year old sophmore it seems like he needs to find his stride pretty quickly if he is going to have a career.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

Oh wow, that's so original. Either you think this team is better with STAT and Melo at the core with the real opportunity to add another top player or you don't. Just argue your opinion instead of being a DICK and repeating tired crap about preseason win predictions. Why don't you actually find some valid points to refute what i'm saying related to this topic as opposed to lame jokes about past win predictions.

What did I say that isn't true? Are Gallo and Chandler on the level of STAT and Melo? Is STAT and Melo as the core better than Gallo and Chandler? Is having STAT and Melo putting this team closer to title contention than what we had before? If you don't like it just state why. No need to get all personal and off topic for no reason.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

Oh wow, that's so original. Either you think this team is better with STAT and Melo at the core with the real opportunity to add another top player or you don't. Just argue your opinion instead of being a DICK and repeating tired crap about preseason win predictions. Why don't you actually find some valid points to refute what i'm saying related to this topic as opposed to lame jokes about past win predictions.

What did I say that isn't true? Are Gallo and Chandler on the level of STAT and Melo? Is STAT and Melo as the core better than Gallo and Chandler? Is having STAT and Melo putting this team closer to title contention than what we had before? If you don't like it just state why. No need to get all personal and off topic for no reason.

Its pointless man. Bonn didnt like the Amare signing or the Melo trade. There is no chance he will be high on this Knick team.

I think Walsh being pushed out is a bad sign.

If a competent GM can't leave on his own accord then we are in for a rude awakening.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

Oh wow, that's so original. Either you think this team is better with STAT and Melo at the core with the real opportunity to add another top player or you don't. Just argue your opinion instead of being a DICK and repeating tired crap about preseason win predictions. Why don't you actually find some valid points to refute what i'm saying related to this topic as opposed to lame jokes about past win predictions.

What did I say that isn't true? Are Gallo and Chandler on the level of STAT and Melo? Is STAT and Melo as the core better than Gallo and Chandler? Is having STAT and Melo putting this team closer to title contention than what we had before? If you don't like it just state why. No need to get all personal and off topic for no reason.

Man if you're trying to educate us on the "reality" of the situation - treating your view as if it were fact - you should expect such a reply.

Silverfuel wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

Oh wow, that's so original. Either you think this team is better with STAT and Melo at the core with the real opportunity to add another top player or you don't. Just argue your opinion instead of being a DICK and repeating tired crap about preseason win predictions. Why don't you actually find some valid points to refute what i'm saying related to this topic as opposed to lame jokes about past win predictions.

What did I say that isn't true? Are Gallo and Chandler on the level of STAT and Melo? Is STAT and Melo as the core better than Gallo and Chandler? Is having STAT and Melo putting this team closer to title contention than what we had before? If you don't like it just state why. No need to get all personal and off topic for no reason.

Its pointless man. Bonn didnt like the Amare signing or the Melo trade. There is no chance he will be high on this Knick team.

Man that's true but it's just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't liked what this team has done for the past ten years.

40 wins should be the goal. This team is for real with a slight upgrade at the center. The depth needs work but will do for now. The PG position will be in question because Billups isn't the type of PG that will maximize the talents of our two stars, but will make up for it somewhat with leadership. I have a feeling a center and the addition of Paul or Nash makes us a true contender, but for now we are still a team capable and expected to get deep into the playoffs on star power alone. The excitement needs to be there that this team is for real because we haven't had this much star power in many of our lifetimes.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:Ah here we go. This is the pessimistic UK we all know and love.

Here's the reality of the situation. There are only a select few players in this league with the talent to win you a title. Even the draft doesn't produce those kinds of players every year!!! We have 2 of the top 10-15 players in the league, depending upon how you rate them. Still that's a major thing. In the East that is a major advantage. The team has a chance to maybe add to that talent with another elite level player. How can any Knick fan be down about that??? Bad Knee or not CP3 was an absolute BEAST in the playoffs and chances are he'll be better this year since it usually takes 2 to get back to full strength after a major surgery. Then don't forget that we also have a shot at Deron and Howard, even if it's not as likely as CP3. That's where this team is at.

We lost for 2 years and then added 2 All Stars last year!!! They have to play this thing out and see what happens in 2012. Let's be real here, this season wasn't likely to be a championship season anyway. It was always going to be a year to play out and see if there will be an in season trade for a Max player or off season FA signing. In either event there was a chance there was going to be change.

The team isn't a finished product and wasn't a finished product before the Melo trade. Building a winning core was always in the plans. Most think this team needs one more key player to really compete for a title and the Knicks are going to do everything they can to have a chance to get that player. Gallo and Chandler aren't elite players. STAT and Melo are!

You've thought this forum was overly pessimistic for the past ten years. If you want an assessment of reality, here is the formula
Reality = Nixluva's win prediction - 15 wins

Oh wow, that's so original. Either you think this team is better with STAT and Melo at the core with the real opportunity to add another top player or you don't. Just argue your opinion instead of being a DICK and repeating tired crap about preseason win predictions. Why don't you actually find some valid points to refute what i'm saying related to this topic as opposed to lame jokes about past win predictions.

What did I say that isn't true? Are Gallo and Chandler on the level of STAT and Melo? Is STAT and Melo as the core better than Gallo and Chandler? Is having STAT and Melo putting this team closer to title contention than what we had before? If you don't like it just state why. No need to get all personal and off topic for no reason.

Man if you're trying to educate us on the "reality" of the situation - treating your view as if it were fact - you should expect such a reply.

You can give you opinion and back it up with the facts as you see them. If you have some reason why you feel this team isn't better going in the current direction, explain how it could be better? The only way you can win in this league is to have at least 2 of the best players in the league. History proves this fact. How else could we end up with 2 players significantly better than STAT and Melo? Who are these players?

Some suggest that we could've gotten Deron, but I really have concerns about him after what happened in Utah. Something smells in that situation. That's one of the most rock solid organizations for decades. They couldn't wait to get rid of him. He's talented but you have to wonder. Outside of that we ended up with 2 top 10-15 players in their primes. there are so few players in the stratosphere of the league capable of making your team a title contender. In the end we got 2 of those players. 2 TOP 10-15 Players!!! Not just All Stars as some keep putting it.

what happen to billups expiring contract..if that not a blue chip trade piece then i must be losing it..

Childs2Dudley wrote:I think Walsh being pushed out is a bad sign.

If a competent GM can't leave on his own accord then we are in for a rude awakening.

I think that is a great point. Stern forced Dolan to replace Isiah but Dolan had no trouble moving on from Walsh despite the stability, class and competence he provided. Grunwald and Woodson both have a lot of history with Isiah.

Dudes is still obsessing over Isiah Thomas.

AnubisADL wrote:Dudes is still obsessing over Isiah Thomas.

Says the Isiah fanboy.

"pump and dump" sounds so dirty.

This team could be a disaster for all I know. But holy crap we need some rebounding and size inside more than anything.

Some real complementary shooters should work too.

And for the love of god, lets try to develop Shumpert. Our best chance at finding a third big player is by developing one.

The Knicks will be the real deal this year. I expect nothing less than 40 wins and a playoff run. The Smiling Assassin will make people forget about the role players we gave up.

CashMoney wrote:The Knicks will be the real deal this year. I expect nothing less than 40 wins and a playoff run. The Smiling Assassin will make people forget about the role players we gave up.

I agree. Until he's smoked by Paul Pierce again when the games count. Playoff time. Smiling assassin.... hamburglar is more like it. Dude's got a lot to prove and it needs to happen in the POST season. Untill then he's stat collector

fishmike wrote:

CashMoney wrote:The Knicks will be the real deal this year. I expect nothing less than 40 wins and a playoff run. The Smiling Assassin will make people forget about the role players we gave up.

I agree. Until he's smoked by Paul Pierce again when the games count. Playoff time. Smiling assassin.... hamburglar is more like it. Dude's got a lot to prove and it needs to happen in the POST season. Untill then he's stat collector

If you're predictions are right and this truly is a 50 win team (over a full season), then I wouldn't criticize the team's previous decisions. With good decisions and a lot of luck (which any championship team needs), you can improve a 50 win team to the point where it's championship calibre.