Knicks · Do Carmelo and Stoudemire LIKE playing together? (page 2)
holfresh wrote:misterearl wrote:Two big men with diverse skill sets should be better at sharing the ball. Last night in 19:47 Carmelo had one assist. in 19:36 of play Stoudemire had only one assist. Of course it starts with our ragged backcourt situation but there appears to be a plague of selfishness that cancels out ANY maximum use of talent(s).Whatever offensive scheme is being taught, it is not encouraging team play. Quite the opposite. Instead of moving and grooving, the Knicks seem to be playing with blinders. It is not enough to simply pass the ball (Toney Douglas) - the pass must be accurate. If the ball is not delivered in a spot where the receiver can make a move without being hassled, it is only an offensive foul (or forced shot) waiting to happen.
Stoudemire, especially, needs to keep his head up... instead of instinctively plowing into his man.
Carmelo has shown flashes of getting others involved, but goes solo down the stretch. For this team to be a consistent winner, that also needs to change. His injury is a teachable moment.
Panicking doesn't look attractive on you Earl...One loss after four consecutive wins an we have a structural issue?...Melo and Amare doesn't like sharing the ball???..Prior to last night's game, Carmelo is averaging 5.5 assist the last 4 games...4.3 on the season...Very respectable..You are reaching...
How is it panic if one notices a lack of symmetry between two leaders over their first 40 games?
Forget the wins and losses. This has less to do with the scoreboard and MORE about style of play and sharing the ball. Carmelo's assist totals are irrelevant. What is offered is the lack of cohesion between carmelo and stoudemire. How many times do they pass to one another with a purpose?
How many times have Amar'e and Carmelo high fived after a dime?
How many times have they set a pick for one another?
Did you notice that Amar'es streak of games on double figures (minimum of 10 points) was broken last night?
misterearl wrote:holfresh wrote:misterearl wrote:Two big men with diverse skill sets should be better at sharing the ball. Last night in 19:47 Carmelo had one assist. in 19:36 of play Stoudemire had only one assist. Of course it starts with our ragged backcourt situation but there appears to be a plague of selfishness that cancels out ANY maximum use of talent(s).Whatever offensive scheme is being taught, it is not encouraging team play. Quite the opposite. Instead of moving and grooving, the Knicks seem to be playing with blinders. It is not enough to simply pass the ball (Toney Douglas) - the pass must be accurate. If the ball is not delivered in a spot where the receiver can make a move without being hassled, it is only an offensive foul (or forced shot) waiting to happen.
Stoudemire, especially, needs to keep his head up... instead of instinctively plowing into his man.
Carmelo has shown flashes of getting others involved, but goes solo down the stretch. For this team to be a consistent winner, that also needs to change. His injury is a teachable moment.
Panicking doesn't look attractive on you Earl...One loss after four consecutive wins an we have a structural issue?...Melo and Amare doesn't like sharing the ball???..Prior to last night's game, Carmelo is averaging 5.5 assist the last 4 games...4.3 on the season...Very respectable..You are reaching...
How is it panic if one notices a lack of symmetry between two leaders over their first 40 games?
Forget the wins and losses. This has less to do with the scoreboard and MORE about style of play and sharing the ball. Carmelo's assist totals are irrelevant. What is offered is the lack of cohesion between carmelo and stoudemire. How many times do they pass to one another with a purpose?
How many times have Amar'e and Carmelo high fived after a dime?
How many times have they set a pick for one another?
Did you notice that Amar'es streak of games on double figures (minimum of 10 points) was broken last night?
how many times do Wade and Lebron? how about Kobe and Pau? Durant and Westbrook?
you're asking for two guys who aren't natural playmakers to make plays for one another?
how about getting a real playmaker. his name is baron davis and he'll be here in two weeks. can you stand the wait? or will people implode with impatience conjuring rosy rememberances of a 28-26 jugernaut that could have been!
Q. crzymdups - how about getting a real playmaker?
A. One player cannot change selfish habits by himself. Baron can help, if he is empowered to run the show, and his body does not betray him... but he will still need a breather. Hey, there is always next year.
Q. crzymdups - you're asking for two guys who aren't natural playmakers to make plays for one another?
A. Absolutely. Is asking for a simple pick and pop asking too much from any all star?
Q. crzymdups - how many times do Wade and Lebron?
A. Just once. It was a doozy. Did you catch the Wade full court alley oop last season? It made ESPN top plays.
Q. crzymdups - how about Kobe and Pau?
A. How about them?
Q. crzymdups - Durant and Westbrook?
A. Watch tomorrow night.
misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Has Never Been To Oklahoma CityQ. crzymdups - how about getting a real playmaker?
A. One player cannot change selfish habits by himself. Baron can help, if he is empowered to run the show, and his body does not betray him... but he will still need a breather. Hey, there is always next year.
Q. crzymdups - you're asking for two guys who aren't natural playmakers to make plays for one another?
A. Absolutely. Is asking for a simple pick and pop asking too much from any all star?
Q. crzymdups - how many times do Wade and Lebron?
A. Just once. It was a doozy. Did you catch the Wade full court alley oop last season? It made ESPN top plays.
Q. crzymdups - how about Kobe and Pau?
A. How about them?
Q. crzymdups - Durant and Westbrook?
A. Watch tomorrow night.
um. i don't feel like the answer man answered too many of my questions.
for the one you did answer: a "simple" pick and pop is usually run by a point guard who has the dexterity and handle to get around the pick quickly, thus creating the necessity for a switch. neither Melo or Amar'e have that kind of handle. how many times have we seen melo turn the ball over in those situations? HE IS NOT A GUARD. he doesn't have those skills.
also, if you load up our two main scoring threats in one spot on the floor - i think that makes things pretty easy for the defense and gives them little reason to stay honest on anyone else on the floor. i think a pick and roll between melo and amar'e would face three defenders at the minimum. neither guy is a good enough passer to really exploit that and they don't play with enough guys who can make shots and make the other team pay. c.f: Fields, Landry; Douglas, Toney; Shumpert, Iman; Chandler, Tyson (okay if it's an alley oop, otherwise...)
also, if alley oops are all you want, the knicks are one of the league leaders in that category and monday against the bobcats featured Melo leading Amar'e with a lob that he finished.
bottom line: these guys need a third player who can create space and movement when he attacks with the dribble and who plays heads up enough to see the possibilities Amar'e and Melo and even Tyson create in a half court set. Iman did a nice job with that for one game (washington) but otherwise, he is not a point guard.
this is why Baron is so important. i think he's the difference maker this team needs on offense. their defense is fine, 7th best in the league and can get better. they need a visionary on offense and baron is that man. you don't need to be able to have young legs and dunk to see the floor open up in front of you. baron is a visionary passer in a way no one else on this roster is.
he's the answer, answer man, if you can be patient for a few weeks.
you give baron davis the ball and have him direct this team and i guarantee amar'e and carmelo will LIKE playing together
misterearl wrote:holfresh wrote:misterearl wrote:Two big men with diverse skill sets should be better at sharing the ball. Last night in 19:47 Carmelo had one assist. in 19:36 of play Stoudemire had only one assist. Of course it starts with our ragged backcourt situation but there appears to be a plague of selfishness that cancels out ANY maximum use of talent(s).Whatever offensive scheme is being taught, it is not encouraging team play. Quite the opposite. Instead of moving and grooving, the Knicks seem to be playing with blinders. It is not enough to simply pass the ball (Toney Douglas) - the pass must be accurate. If the ball is not delivered in a spot where the receiver can make a move without being hassled, it is only an offensive foul (or forced shot) waiting to happen.
Stoudemire, especially, needs to keep his head up... instead of instinctively plowing into his man.
Carmelo has shown flashes of getting others involved, but goes solo down the stretch. For this team to be a consistent winner, that also needs to change. His injury is a teachable moment.
Panicking doesn't look attractive on you Earl...One loss after four consecutive wins an we have a structural issue?...Melo and Amare doesn't like sharing the ball???..Prior to last night's game, Carmelo is averaging 5.5 assist the last 4 games...4.3 on the season...Very respectable..You are reaching...
How is it panic if one notices a lack of symmetry between two leaders over their first 40 games?
Forget the wins and losses. This has less to do with the scoreboard and MORE about style of play and sharing the ball. Carmelo's assist totals are irrelevant. What is offered is the lack of cohesion between carmelo and stoudemire. How many times do they pass to one another with a purpose?
How many times have Amar'e and Carmelo high fived after a dime?
How many times have they set a pick for one another?
Did you notice that Amar'es streak of games on double figures (minimum of 10 points) was broken last night?
None of what you are saying have any relevance to what's happening out there...High five after a dime???...Set picks for one another???...They are not guards constantly running around picks...The problem with this team isn't the two best players...Why are you trying to make it about them???..Carmelo's play has been stellar since coming here...Absolutely stellar to my surprise...Ball distribution, defense, scoring and rebounding...Amare needs a point guard who can run the pick and roll to excel, period...We saw this last season until Felton figured it out...Last year, Knicks started 3-8 before learning to play together...Unfortunately that PG isn't in game uniform yet...Chandler needs a point to get him easy buckets...Our current PG who has the green light to shoot the ball when he touches it isn't helping much...Bibby is done..Lin is not an NBA player...
Style of play sucks...we live and die by the three point shot...This coach is going down in flames trying to prove his way is right...To say the problem is whether or not the two star like player with each other is a bit short sighted...
Shump just missed another 1 on 5 fast break jumper....
ChuckBuck wrote:Let Alan Speaketh!
yep
crzymdups wrote:misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Has Never Been To Oklahoma CityQ. crzymdups - how about getting a real playmaker?
A. One player cannot change selfish habits by himself. Baron can help, if he is empowered to run the show, and his body does not betray him... but he will still need a breather. Hey, there is always next year.
Q. crzymdups - you're asking for two guys who aren't natural playmakers to make plays for one another?
A. Absolutely. Is asking for a simple pick and pop asking too much from any all star?
Q. crzymdups - how many times do Wade and Lebron?
A. Just once. It was a doozy. Did you catch the Wade full court alley oop last season? It made ESPN top plays.
Q. crzymdups - how about Kobe and Pau?
A. How about them?
Q. crzymdups - Durant and Westbrook?
A. Watch tomorrow night.
um. i don't feel like the answer man answered too many of my questions.
for the one you did answer: a "simple" pick and pop is usually run by a point guard who has the dexterity and handle to get around the pick quickly, thus creating the necessity for a switch. neither Melo or Amar'e have that kind of handle. how many times have we seen melo turn the ball over in those situations? HE IS NOT A GUARD. he doesn't have those skills.
also, if you load up our two main scoring threats in one spot on the floor - i think that makes things pretty easy for the defense and gives them little reason to stay honest on anyone else on the floor. i think a pick and roll between melo and amar'e would face three defenders at the minimum. neither guy is a good enough passer to really exploit that and they don't play with enough guys who can make shots and make the other team pay. c.f: Fields, Landry; Douglas, Toney; Shumpert, Iman; Chandler, Tyson (okay if it's an alley oop, otherwise...)
also, if alley oops are all you want, the knicks are one of the league leaders in that category and monday against the bobcats featured Melo leading Amar'e with a lob that he finished.
bottom line: these guys need a third player who can create space and movement when he attacks with the dribble and who plays heads up enough to see the possibilities Amar'e and Melo and even Tyson create in a half court set. Iman did a nice job with that for one game (washington) but otherwise, he is not a point guard.
this is why Baron is so important. i think he's the difference maker this team needs on offense. their defense is fine, 7th best in the league and can get better. they need a visionary on offense and baron is that man. you don't need to be able to have young legs and dunk to see the floor open up in front of you. baron is a visionary passer in a way no one else on this roster is.
he's the answer, answer man, if you can be patient for a few weeks.
you give baron davis the ball and have him direct this team and i guarantee amar'e and carmelo will LIKE playing together
I am sry Misterearl, but I'd like to be the answer man for one night. Melo has the beautiful gift of going into the packed lane to do his thing,but he cannot dribble around a pick? You cannot seriously believe that. We haven't seen it and its a different issue. As for slapping high fives, this is a bit of a touchy subject. I do believe that in order to win it all tat must take place. Maybe its not conventional, maybe its pointing a finger at each other. Maybe its a slap on the ass, like in baseball, if that makes any sence. Maybe its what N8 the Great tried to do to Pierce in that one clip. Point is a championship team needs that. Especially between the two captains
ramtour420 - who stated the idea is to dribble off a pick?
Move without the ball.
misterearl wrote:The Two Man Gameramtour420 - who stated the idea is to dribble off a pick?
Move without the ball.
Seems like that goes against our offensive scheme. Fields got crucified for it last year, but it was because he was 'clogging the paint' . PnR tho is MDA' s staple and without it his O falls asleep behind the 3 point line while someone goes 1vs1
ramtour420 will be appearing all week
Who, exactly, crucified Fields for moving without the ball?
"Seems like that goes against our offensive scheme."
You got jokes now?
The pick-and-pop is an effective strategy that is a simple adaptation of D'Antoni's (cough) scheme.
“Once we start moving the ball,” (Stoudemire) said, “once we start getting back to our offense, running the floor, creating great spacing, Tyson and I playing in tandem, all of that will eventually cure our offensive problems.”
Jus' sayin.'
misterearl wrote:Kings Of Comedyramtour420 will be appearing all week
Who, exactly, crucified Fields for moving without the ball?
"Seems like that goes against our offensive scheme."
You got jokes now?
The pick-and-pop is an effective strategy that is a simple adaptation of D'Antoni's (cough) scheme.
“Once we start moving the ball,” (Stoudemire) said, “once we start getting back to our offense, running the floor, creating great spacing, Tyson and I playing in tandem, all of that will eventually cure our offensive problems.”
Jus' sayin.'
Man, you are still one of my favorite posters here. Moving without the ball is not a part of MDA scheme unless its a PNR or Pick-n-pop. When I say move without the ball I am thinking more along the lines of what Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton make the living off of. Or I am thinkin some simple cuts into the paint to receive the ball from the elbow ala Pricenton offence. Motion offense or whatever they call it. Fields was doing it early last season, and MDA publicly criticized him for it. Once Amare started passing a bit from the elbow instead of only either taking a jumper or driving into the paint, Fields was able to operate a bit again. Then we got Melo and we know what happened to Amare and Fields since then
misterearl wrote:The Answer Man Has Never Been To Oklahoma CityQ. crzymdups - how about getting a real playmaker?
A. One player cannot change selfish habits by himself. Baron can help, if he is empowered to run the show, and his body does not betray him... but he will still need a breather. Hey, there is always next year.
Q. crzymdups - you're asking for two guys who aren't natural playmakers to make plays for one another?
A. Absolutely. Is asking for a simple pick and pop asking too much from any all star?
Q. crzymdups - how many times do Wade and Lebron?
A. Just once. It was a doozy. Did you catch the Wade full court alley oop last season? It made ESPN top plays.
Q. crzymdups - how about Kobe and Pau?
A. How about them?
Q. crzymdups - Durant and Westbrook?
A. Watch tomorrow night.
All those pairs has one GUARD involved, Melo and Amare are Forwards. But they do need to trus each others and STAT needs to set picks for Melo. They generally seem to be on different sides of the floor so Tyson ends p setting picks for Melo instead. I think it's fine and a PG will unlock STAT's beast mode again.
You still need crisp passing to take advantage of collapsing defense. Teams have their defenders drop off of our shooters to be able to give help in the lane on Chandler, Melo or STAT. This is where a penetrating PG comes in. We've only got one guy and that's Shump who is still learning.
crzymdups wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Let Alan Speaketh!yep
All hail BD
nixluva wrote:STAT actually by design to spread the floor is on the other side of the floor from Melo. If you put them both on the same side of the floor it congests the floor because the defense will overplay that side. Also Tyson has room to drive on the PnR, because STAT's made is on the other side with him. You take both the other teams Center and PF out of the paint when you spread the floor. This should open up the floor for back cuts and penetration by our guards too.You still need crisp passing to take advantage of collapsing defense. Teams have their defenders drop off of our shooters to be able to give help in the lane on Chandler, Melo or STAT. This is where a penetrating PG comes in. We've only got one guy and that's Shump who is still learning.
Yeah wasn't really saying they need to be on te same side, just made an observation.
ramtour420 wrote:misterearl wrote:Kings Of Comedyramtour420 will be appearing all week
Who, exactly, crucified Fields for moving without the ball?
"Seems like that goes against our offensive scheme."
You got jokes now?
The pick-and-pop is an effective strategy that is a simple adaptation of D'Antoni's (cough) scheme.
“Once we start moving the ball,” (Stoudemire) said, “once we start getting back to our offense, running the floor, creating great spacing, Tyson and I playing in tandem, all of that will eventually cure our offensive problems.”
Jus' sayin.'
Man, you are still one of my favorite posters here. Moving without the ball is not a part of MDA scheme unless its a PNR or Pick-n-pop. When I say move without the ball I am thinking more along the lines of what Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton make the living off of. Or I am thinkin some simple cuts into the paint to receive the ball from the elbow ala Pricenton offence. Motion offense or whatever they call it. Fields was doing it early last season, and MDA publicly criticized him for it. Once Amare started passing a bit from the elbow instead of only either taking a jumper or driving into the paint, Fields was able to operate a bit again. Then we got Melo and we know what happened to Amare and Fields since then
Ramtour thank you for the kind words. Back at you. It is ALWAYS good to trade opinion with someone who thinks from different angles and who can back it with research. Even better, when someone can make you spit-take orange juice on the keyboard.
On those mornings after the Knicks are movin and groovin it is a pleasure to feel the euphoria of good basketball. Even when they lose. Unfortunately, we are stuck in a drugged-up hoops purgatory where it feels every single move has two nasty side effects. One step forward, two steps backward.
“(Durant) got some great screens," said Bill Walker, who finished with three points on 1-of-6 shooting. “It’s tough guarding him and everyone’s screening for him. But he’s a great player who made great shots." He said everyone.
Melo and Amar'e have GOT to find some enjoyment. Some cohesion. Something that Baron Davis alone cannot give them.... or, as former Knicks guard Johnny Green once said, "we were so bad, we carried our Knicks equipment bags with the logos on the inside."
crzymdups wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Let Alan Speaketh!yep
damnit! how dare you let logic appeal to you and spread it on this messageboard