RonRon wrote:crzymdups wrote:RonRon wrote:
I believe the pre Melo Knicks, and adding Tyson Chandler, gives us a overall better team.
The record doesn't bear that out, at 28-26.
And there's absolutely no proof Tyson would have come here without Melo being here. Or Baron for that matter. Tyson and Baron are good good friends. You think they didn't talk about the possibility of going to NY together.
he wanted to go the the team that had the best chances of winning, where he can show the league how his defensive culture affects the game, and pay him in the same area.
Baron Davis might now want to come here if Felton is here, however, if he was willing to go to Golden State, its pretty apparent he would rather go to New York with what we had.
We had a way easier schedule than our first half, with the trade rumors affecting the play of our players. Isn't it apparent that we have been playing with no system, identity, and relying on ISO plays? How can you even debate this? For everyone that supported the trade, don't complain about how we suck, cause thats where we lossed our depth and talent...
Felton
Gallo
Wilson Chandler
Mosgov
Randolph
1 New York 1st rounder
1 future swap 1st rounder
2 GS picks
is greater than
Melo
Balkman
how much cap room would the knicks have had if they didn't do the melo trade? do you even know it was possible to sign tyson?
and saying tyson would have come to NY without melo here is highly dubious.
28-26. you're arguing for a team that was 28-26.
this thread is about the defense of the actual NY Knicks, which is much better than the defense of any Knicks team since 2001.
I don't understand why the people still harping about the trade, just become Denver Nuggets fans...THERE problem solved
Seriously, if anyone thinks the Nuggets will contend for a title anytime soon, good luck with that. Knicks "flawed" squad is much closer, we're literally 1 or 2 pieces away from genuinely contending. The NBA is a star driven league, you need at least 1 or more all stars at the top of their game with surrounding role players.
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champi...
And for those saying if we bit the bullet, don't trade, keep our assets, sign TC....NOOO. Tyson Chandler does not come to NY if Melo isn't in a Knicks uni. Neither does Baron Davis...
ChuckBuck wrote:I don't understand why the people still harping about the trade, just become Denver Nuggets fans...THERE problem solved Seriously, if anyone thinks the Nuggets will contend for a title anytime soon, good luck with that. Knicks "flawed" squad is much closer, we're literally 1 or 2 pieces away from genuinely contending. The NBA is a star driven league, you need at least 1 or more all stars at the top of their game with surrounding role players.http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champi...
And for those saying if we bit the bullet, don't trade, keep our assets, sign TC....NOOO. Tyson Chandler does not come to NY if Melo isn't in a Knicks uni. Neither does Baron Davis...
Do you mean the Denver JuggerNuggets?! The same team that got swept in the frst round? Them?!
crzymdups wrote:RonRon wrote:crzymdups wrote:RonRon wrote:
I believe the pre Melo Knicks, and adding Tyson Chandler, gives us a overall better team.
The record doesn't bear that out, at 28-26.
And there's absolutely no proof Tyson would have come here without Melo being here. Or Baron for that matter. Tyson and Baron are good good friends. You think they didn't talk about the possibility of going to NY together.
he wanted to go the the team that had the best chances of winning, where he can show the league how his defensive culture affects the game, and pay him in the same area.
Baron Davis might now want to come here if Felton is here, however, if he was willing to go to Golden State, its pretty apparent he would rather go to New York with what we had.
We had a way easier schedule than our first half, with the trade rumors affecting the play of our players. Isn't it apparent that we have been playing with no system, identity, and relying on ISO plays? How can you even debate this? For everyone that supported the trade, don't complain about how we suck, cause thats where we lossed our depth and talent...
Felton
Gallo
Wilson Chandler
Mosgov
Randolph
1 New York 1st rounder
1 future swap 1st rounder
2 GS picks
is greater than
Melo
Balkman
how much cap room would the knicks have had if they didn't do the melo trade? do you even know it was possible to sign tyson?
and saying tyson would have come to NY without melo here is highly dubious.
28-26. you're arguing for a team that was 28-26.
this thread is about the defense of the actual NY Knicks, which is much better than the defense of any Knicks team since 2001.
Yes, we would, it would be up to moving Turiaf's contract. We probably won't be able to match Wilson Chandler's contract if he signs for about 10m.
It wouldn't be very possible to move AR for future picks as well. Whether it may be for a 1st round or 2 2nd rounders would be the question?
Resigning Wilson Chandler wouldn't be impossible either, but we would have to send AR for picks, without taking back salary with Turiaf as well.
He was one of the centers I was looking to acquire the whole time.
Eddy Curry was a big expiring for us...
I wrote a whole thread last year to go for Tyson Chandler, while he was on the bench for the Dallas Mavericks b4 they went on that that crazy winning streak when Chandler started for the Mavericks. I didn't get much support and many players shot my idea down...
the people who are complaining about the nuggets trade are most likely the same people who complained about the shumpert pick. they have all the answers. most likely they'd be fine with this team if reggie miller and charles barkley, two knicks haters and marv albert (who has legitimate beef with the organization) hadn't shat on them on national tv. wounded pride equals - "nooooo we need to go back to the passsst"
what's the ceiling of that "fantasy" team with amar'e no longer beasting? and gallo is the leading scorer? what's the ceiling, i say.
This team isn't deep but who thought it would be? We needed to draft well and we did! We needed for our returning rotation players to step up and they've regressed. This team added 8 new players and so we needed a full training camp and pre season. We didn't get it. The team is struggling on O but improved on D. It's better to have the D in place and wait on the O than for this team to have no improvement on D. Jared and B. Diddy could help in time. being 7th in D is a HUGE step for this team, no matter who we've played.
crzymdups wrote:the people who are complaining about the nuggets trade are most likely the same people who complained about the shumpert pick. they have all the answers. most likely they'd be fine with this team if reggie miller and charles barkley, two knicks haters and marv albert (who has legitimate beef with the organization) hadn't shat on them on national tv. wounded pride equals - "nooooo we need to go back to the passsst"what's the ceiling of that "fantasy" team with amar'e no longer beasting? and gallo is the leading scorer? what's the ceiling, i say.
First Round Sweep in the Playoffs
ChuckBuck wrote:I don't understand why the people still harping about the trade, just become Denver Nuggets fans...THERE problem solved Seriously, if anyone thinks the Nuggets will contend for a title anytime soon, good luck with that. Knicks "flawed" squad is much closer, we're literally 1 or 2 pieces away from genuinely contending. The NBA is a star driven league, you need at least 1 or more all stars at the top of their game with surrounding role players.http://www.nba.com/history/finals/champi...
And for those saying if we bit the bullet, don't trade, keep our assets, sign TC....NOOO. Tyson Chandler does not come to NY if Melo isn't in a Knicks uni. Neither does Baron Davis...
Its for the people that supported the Melo trade and are now Bi*TCHING. We are limited on our moves with our cap room, draft picks, and we have to pick our poison to get rid of it.
And the Amnesty greatly benefited us already with our draft picks, so we would have sucked much more. People said
Tyson Chandler would still go the Knicks, Baron Davis, without the ability to start with Felton, might not...
Seriously, if he was close to signing with Golden State, I am sure he would have picked New York to establish his name and show his effectiveness on defense because we had no center and we have defenders except in the Center position.
Felton
Iman
Gallo
Wilson Chandler
Shawne Williams
TD
While GS has who?
ChuckBuck wrote:crzymdups wrote:the people who are complaining about the nuggets trade are most likely the same people who complained about the shumpert pick. they have all the answers. most likely they'd be fine with this team if reggie miller and charles barkley, two knicks haters and marv albert (who has legitimate beef with the organization) hadn't shat on them on national tv. wounded pride equals - "nooooo we need to go back to the passsst"what's the ceiling of that "fantasy" team with amar'e no longer beasting? and gallo is the leading scorer? what's the ceiling, i say.
First Round Sweep in the Playoffs
are you talking about the Knicks or Denver?
RonRon wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:crzymdups wrote:the people who are complaining about the nuggets trade are most likely the same people who complained about the shumpert pick. they have all the answers. most likely they'd be fine with this team if reggie miller and charles barkley, two knicks haters and marv albert (who has legitimate beef with the organization) hadn't shat on them on national tv. wounded pride equals - "nooooo we need to go back to the passsst"what's the ceiling of that "fantasy" team with amar'e no longer beasting? and gallo is the leading scorer? what's the ceiling, i say.
First Round Sweep in the Playoffs
are you talking about the Knicks are Denver?
I would love to see the Knicks with everyone healthy play a seven game series with the Darlin' Nuggets. It wouldn't be pretty for the Nuggz.
Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The defense is good. The offense sucks and is dependent on an old, injured PG to save the season. Otherwise, they look like a .500 to .550.
Sad but true.
Baron can turn out well or he can be a flat dud. My cash is on somewhere in the middle. I think Baron will show some flashes of his old ways, but over the length he will be mediocre. We'll see.
It's strange to imagine a team with Amar'e and Melo having trouble with offense.
It's not strange to me....They don't compliment each other. They need a facilitator, or a coach with the right system to make them co-exist. Otherwise, with Dantoni's system (run fast and shoot first) they will never be insinct with each other, especially with a rookie running the point......Dantoni is like that substitute teacher....Once you know he's the teacher for today, you know you can do whatever you want to do in that classroom......Thats why Shump can put up 20 shots and only score 12, then just chalk it up as a bad shooting night. Thats why the team can put up 35 three pt attempts, and not feel like they did anything wrong.
There's too much freedom for a team that needs too much structure. But thats what you get with 
. So it's not his fault, it's the people that put these guys in these positions. It's the owners and GM's that put this team together. Everybody else is just doing what they have been getting paid for their entire career. Unfortunately for STAT and Chandler, they need a real good PG and a structured coach that believes in accountability, for them to be sucessfull. Otherwise, right now, everybody is getting exposed....even Melo.
Who is this mystical coach?
Isn't MDA like some offensive genious?
Isn't he the guy that does not play rookies or play defense?
I think the point is that you know what kind of a coach D'Antoni is and you know that he needs a facilitator to run his offense. If as a management team he is your guy you get him what he needs to win. I think the Tyson pick up was a great move and I am glad that as an organization they are no longer waiting to sign the next big name. However, leaving any coach without a point guard puts them in a tough spot, leaving a coach that has an offensive system like D'Antoni without a point guard handicaps what they can do even more. The Knicks got lucky with Baron but hoping that a guy gets amnestied and then signs with you is not a plan.
CrushAlot wrote:Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The defense is good. The offense sucks and is dependent on an old, injured PG to save the season. Otherwise, they look like a .500 to .550.
Sad but true.
Baron can turn out well or he can be a flat dud. My cash is on somewhere in the middle. I think Baron will show some flashes of his old ways, but over the length he will be mediocre. We'll see.
It's strange to imagine a team with Amar'e and Melo having trouble with offense.
It's not strange to me....They don't compliment each other. They need a facilitator, or a coach with the right system to make them co-exist. Otherwise, with Dantoni's system (run fast and shoot first) they will never be insinct with each other, especially with a rookie running the point......Dantoni is like that substitute teacher....Once you know he's the teacher for today, you know you can do whatever you want to do in that classroom......Thats why Shump can put up 20 shots and only score 12, then just chalk it up as a bad shooting night. Thats why the team can put up 35 three pt attempts, and not feel like they did anything wrong.
There's too much freedom for a team that needs too much structure. But thats what you get with . So it's not his fault, it's the people that put these guys in these positions. It's the owners and GM's that put this team together. Everybody else is just doing what they have been getting paid for their entire career. Unfortunately for STAT and Chandler, they need a real good PG and a structured coach that believes in accountability, for them to be sucessfull. Otherwise, right now, everybody is getting exposed....even Melo.
Who is this mystical coach?
Isn't MDA like some offensive genious?
Isn't he the guy that does not play rookies or play defense?
I think the point is that you know what kind of a coach D'Antoni is and you know that he needs a facilitator to run his offense. If as a management team he is your guy you get him what he needs to win. I think the Tyson pick up was a great move and I am glad that as an organization they are no longer waiting to sign the next big name. However, leaving any coach without a point guard puts them in a tough spot, leaving a coach that has an offensive system like D'Antoni without a point guard handicaps what they can do even more. The Knicks got lucky with Baron but hoping that a guy gets amnestied and then signs with you is not a plan.
Agreed the front office took some big risks here and they are paying for it or rather MDA is. Getting Tyson was important and they took the only available option to fill that need. a lot of people thought TD could handle starter role but some of us said from day 1 this was a stretch. When we got Bibby, I had my hopes that between him and TD they would get some semblance of an ofense going. Point is TD has just regressed a LOT from last year's play, and I thought that was hard to do. Bibby on the other hand doesn't look like the same player, but still the best PG on the active roster by a mile and a half. Shumpert shows some promise but our backcourt is basically a mess. The coach can design plays till he is blue in the face, but for team that cant executre a simple pick and roll what is the point of designing plays? STAT looke horrible if he puts the ball on teh floor, we cant get him the ball where he needs it to be effective. Teams are already looking to cut off lob passes from our guards, one of his so called All start offensive weapons is impotent and useless without a PG. This has little to do with MDA's system. STAT can't be successful w/o good PG play. His only succes here came after he and Felton got on the same page.
The sky isn't falling. TO everyone who feels like Melo and Stat can't coexist, or that BDiddy will suck, or that MDA's system is a wrong fit for the roster... you'll sing a different tune once we have a bonafide PG running things. CB would have been terrific (if a bit slow) but wehad to trade him to shore up our defense. Iman is going to be special, and soon enough we'll know if BDiddy is our PG of the next couple of years, or if it will switch to Nash next season.
All of which points to next year (possibly even this year) for Knicks in ECF vs. Heat/Bulls. It's coming, so please don't throw in the towel after one stinker, even if it's one of the only games you've seen this season (FU MSG!).
Maybe Melo and Stat can coexist, but maybe not. Let's not forget they were crap together last season when we had a very good pg. Sometimes good players just don't fit together. We haven't seen any evidence yet that Stat and Melo can play together. Sure, let's postpone judgment until Davis comes back, but nothing is guaranteed about this.
I'm hearing a lot about this defensive efficiency business.
It must be 2012 version of the pace excuse we used to talk about.
markvmc wrote:Maybe Melo and Stat can coexist, but maybe not. Let's not forget they were crap together last season when we had a very good pg. Sometimes good players just don't fit together. We haven't seen any evidence yet that Stat and Melo can play together. Sure, let's postpone judgment until Davis comes back, but nothing is guaranteed about this.
Billups didn't have enough time with Amare and Melo. And the team didn't have enough time with coaches.
martin wrote:markvmc wrote:Maybe Melo and Stat can coexist, but maybe not. Let's not forget they were crap together last season when we had a very good pg. Sometimes good players just don't fit together. We haven't seen any evidence yet that Stat and Melo can play together. Sure, let's postpone judgment until Davis comes back, but nothing is guaranteed about this.
Billups didn't have enough time with Amare and Melo. And the team didn't have enough time with coaches.
Our friend Martin here just gave us the 2010 excuse.
martin wrote:markvmc wrote:Maybe Melo and Stat can coexist, but maybe not. Let's not forget they were crap together last season when we had a very good pg. Sometimes good players just don't fit together. We haven't seen any evidence yet that Stat and Melo can play together. Sure, let's postpone judgment until Davis comes back, but nothing is guaranteed about this.
Billups didn't have enough time with Amare and Melo. And the team didn't have enough time with coaches.
Maybe so. The point remains, however: there is no evidence so far that Melo and Stat can play together.
What is all this crap about STAT and Melo as if we're talking about a PG and PF/C? Name the legendary SF/PF combos that have set records playing off each other on offense? WTF?
Look Melo anchors the strongside with Tyson as his pick man so that STAT can keep the floor balanced and play PnR with the PG. The only problem is we don't have an experienced PnR PG! Even CB wasn't that guy which is why STAT struggled. It has nothing to do with Melo!!! Learn the F'n game! Geez.
nixluva wrote:What is all this crap about STAT and Melo as if we're talking about a PG and PF/C? Name the legendary SF/PF combos that have set records playing off each other on offense? WTF?Look Melo anchors the strongside with Tyson as his pick man so that STAT can keep the floor balanced and play PnR with the PG. The only problem is we don't have an experienced PnR PG! Even CB wasn't that guy which is why STAT struggled. It has nothing to do with Melo!!! Learn the F'n game! Geez.
I think one of the points made in this thread is exactly what you are saying. The Knicks don't have a competent point guard. The other point being made is why would you do this to a coach like D'Antoni whose offense relies so much on a good point guard. I love the move to get Tyson and I think it was the right thing to do. However, if you have a coach that you know well and are familiar with and you know he needs a good point guard to make what he wants to do on offense successful you get a good point guard. D'Antoni has been seriously handcuffed this season with Douglas running the point and Melo playing point forward.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:What is all this crap about STAT and Melo as if we're talking about a PG and PF/C? Name the legendary SF/PF combos that have set records playing off each other on offense? WTF?Look Melo anchors the strongside with Tyson as his pick man so that STAT can keep the floor balanced and play PnR with the PG. The only problem is we don't have an experienced PnR PG! Even CB wasn't that guy which is why STAT struggled. It has nothing to do with Melo!!! Learn the F'n game! Geez.
I think one of the points made in this thread is exactly what you are saying. The Knicks don't have a competent point guard. The other point being made is why would you do this to a coach like D'Antoni whose offense relies so much on a good point guard. I love the move to get Tyson and I think it was the right thing to do. However, if you have a coach that you know well and are familiar with and you know he needs a good point guard to make what he wants to do on offense successful you get a good point guard. D'Antoni has been seriously handcuffed this season with Douglas running the point and Melo playing point forward.
Yeah I agree with the notion that you need at least a decent PG that can run a PnR and setup a team. TD's horrid start was a shock cuz even tho we didn't think he was a good PG, I think the team felt he could at least hold his own for a while, but he's been far worse than his career avg's in every way. They didn't count on that. Had he even played at the level he did last year it would've been better than this.
My main beef is with the idea that STAT and Melo playing well together is supposed to look like the two of them getting into a two man game a lot. Once in a while OK, but you can't expect a steady diet of that and just in pure BB terms there's never been a great SF/PF scoring tandem. It's just silly to keep making this about the 2 of them playing well together, when it's not up to them to determine that. That's what your PG is there for.
If we can fault Walsh and Grunwald for anything it's that they didn't make sure to have a good backup PG just in case. Also they could've gone after another pick so they could take another PG in the draft. Many of us wanted them to add a 3rd pick and mainly cuz there would be few opportunities to get talent that cheap.
