Knicks · The official Mike D'Antoni watch thread - count down (page 3)
skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
D'Antoni is a polarizing figure. just gotta accept that. there is no convincing people who don't like him to be open-minded.
plus, this is NY we're talking about. 5 weeks ago everyone wanted Tom Coughlin fired. today everyone has always loved him.
eViL wrote:skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
D'Antoni is a polarizing figure. just gotta accept that. there is no convincing people who don't like him to be open-minded.
plus, this is NY we're talking about. 5 weeks ago everyone wanted Tom Coughlin fired. today everyone has always loved him.
I have only watched the Knicks since the Riley days. What coach have the Knicks had that wasn't polarizing in some way? Is it the coach or NY?
Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
He is an assistant coach.
I guess Amare not being on the USA team means he sucks, right? Since this is your logic. If you disagree then your logic doesn't work here.
Who respects Mike D'Antoni? All I hear is "offensive genius" and that's about it. Nobody says this guy can win a championship with his style and nobody thinks it either.
so many ways that you've failed logic here.
this is your idea of logic:
a human is a mammal.
a non human is a non mammal.
martin wrote:eViL wrote:skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
D'Antoni is a polarizing figure. just gotta accept that. there is no convincing people who don't like him to be open-minded.
plus, this is NY we're talking about. 5 weeks ago everyone wanted Tom Coughlin fired. today everyone has always loved him.
I have only watched the Knicks since the Riley days. What coach have the Knicks had that wasn't polarizing in some way? Is it the coach or NY?
i think it's fair to say that NY is one of the toughest places to coach. but D'Antoni and any "offensive" coach is going to be polarizing in team sports where the mantra "defense wins championships" is widely accepted as gospel.
and honestly, i don't disagree with that mantra. but yet i still think we can do good things with D'Antoni at the helm.
Great speeches won't plug the holes in this roster but maybe someone who can do a better job of inspiring the team is needed, get them to play harder, at least put the fear of God in them. You can't do that if you give PT to players who aren't showing anything. Makes them too comfortable with mediocrity.
With the millions they get they shouldn't have to be motivated but it is what it is. Maybe D'antoni is doing his level best to motivate them, all I can go by are the results.
RonRon wrote:as many times as Iman switched, he actually held his own.
Is Dantoni telling them to switch and letting the Suns cause mismatches so easily?
Iman gave up the Shannon browns 3..he protected the drive which would have been a 2..dude has good defensive moments but he looks lost sometimes and undecided
skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.
it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
dangit..
skeng wrote:eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
dangit..
not that I care for MDA as much as I care for the continuity and credibilty of the Knicks
eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
At what point do you say that D'Antoni isn't up to the job? People rightfully gave him a pass for the first 2 seasons but that was then. I don't want the Knicks to keep playing "if we just give D'Antoni one more piece". Too many losses because the coach let the score run up too high because he wouldn't call a time out. Playing favorites with guys who were showing nothing on the floor even while they were in a tailspin. Chewing out rooks but giving the stars a pass.
Its not blood lust, its his track record. Its not seeing him get the team to play hard in any of his 4 years as coach on a consistent basis no matter who was on the floor. I don't believe we've seen that from any coach since JVG so its not just him. In the end, fair on not, its on the coach. He will have had a 4 year run. He was given a fair chance and a two year grace period to make things work, most coaches don't get that regardless of the starting point.
Its not bloodlust or hate, its results or the lack thereof. I say give him this season to at least take the Knicks past the first round and put up a good fight in the second. If he can't do that then I believe we should look for a new coach.
GustavBahler wrote:eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
At what point do you say that D'Antoni isn't up to the job? People rightfully gave him a pass for the first 2 seasons but that was then. I don't want the Knicks to keep playing "if we just give D'Antoni one more piece". Too many losses because the coach let the score run up too high because he wouldn't call a time out. Playing favorites with guys who were showing nothing on the floor even while they were in a tailspin. Chewing out rooks but giving the stars a pass.
Its not blood lust, its his track record. Its not seeing him get the team to play hard in any of his 4 years as coach on a consistent basis no matter who was on the floor. I don't believe we've seen that from any coach since JVG so its not just him. In the end, fair on not, its on the coach. He will have had a 4 year run. He was given a fair chance and a two year grace period to make things work, most coaches don't get that regardless of the starting point.
Its not bloodlust or hate, its results or the lack thereof. I say give him this season to at least take the Knicks past the first round and put up a good fight in the second. If he can't do that then I believe we should look for a new coach.
well, since no one responded to it, i'll just re-post my take on the Knicks situation:
i don't know why, but to me, it's obvious that this team is not executing the way D'Antoni wants them to. to others, it must be D'Antoni's gameplan for the offense to grind to a screeching halt as the game progresses and gets tighter.i dug up an old thread from last year where this team was having the exact same problems. instead of Melo and Amare not meshing, it was Amare and Felton.
it's gonna come, people. Melo has to break out of his bad habits of being a ball stopper. i bet that if there were a statistic for how many of a player's FG's were unassisted, Melo would lead the league. he just doesn't get his points in the flow.
i've played with guys like that. it's usually the most skilled guy who, for whatever reason, call it ego or pride, can't bring himself to let others help him score. it's like every score is a message to the world: "i can do this on my own."
the beauty of this rough start is: Melo and Amare can both see that if they don't let the offense help them score points, they won't win. what we are seeing now is not what the coach wants. it's what the players are doing habitually.
i expect these guys to eventually succumb to the offense. put their pride aside. and accept that the offense can help you score.
it will be a brilliant revelation. and when it happens, we will commit less turnovers, and hit more shots. and in turn, our defense will improve even more because there will be less transition baskets against us.
if this team is still playing like this halfway through the season, then yeah, maybe we have a major problem.
Offense at fault for Knicks’ struggles
The Knicks are in another alleged crisis after Wednesday’s loss to Phoenix dropped them to 6-8 and extended their skid to four games.
Everyone wants to know what’s wrong with the Knicks, who have been worse since Carmelo Anthony’s celebrated arrival last February. Fans boo at Madison Square Garden, chant for coach Mike D’Antoni’s dismissal and Phil Jackson’s arrival, and generally howl the sort of panic that comes with false expectations of championship contention.
Bradford Doolittle, writing at ESPN.com on Wednesday, detailed what ails the Knicks, so I’ll go with some quick bullet-point thoughts here after watching New York three times in person over the last two weeks and a couple of other times on television:
• The Knicks have no consistent plan, no foundational philosophy. I mean that in the kindest way possible, especially when it comes to the coaching staff. No roster has undergone more turmoil over the last 36 months, a process that culminated with the sudden release, via the amnesty provision, of the only viable point guard on the roster at the time (Chauncey Billups).
And guess what? The offense is a mess. You might not know it amid the rancor over New York’s endless switching on defense — a rancor to which I have contributed — but the Knicks have been a perfectly fine defensive team. They are improvising like mad, changing their basic principles on a night-to-night and sometimes quarter-to-quarter basis, but it’s working. New York is 10th in points allowed per possession, a monster improvement from 23rd last season. They rank second in defensive rebounding rate after finishing 26th last season. Tyson Chandler has a lot to do with that, but New York is getting nice work on the boards from Amar’e Stoudemire (by his standards), Anthony (always a good rebounder), Landry Fields, Iman Shumpert and others.
Chandler needs that help because New York has had him switch onto the perimeter so often, including against Steve Nash on Wednesday. Still, the defense is working.
• What’s wrong with the offense? Lots of things, but if there’s one set of numbers that gets at the problem, this is it: The Knicks have finished 16.2 percent of their possessions with isolation plays. That is the highest number in the league, edging the iso-tastic Kings, according to Synergy Sports. New York has scored 0.65 points per possession on those plays, the second-worst mark. Put simply: The Knicks are devoting a giant portion of their offense to something at which they are horrible — at least so far. New York has shot an incredibly low 29 percent on isolation plays, per Synergy. That is very hard to manage.
Anthony is an isolation machine, and just as he did last season, he’s going the isolation route on about one-third of the possessions he finishes via a shot, turnover or drawn foul. The difference: He’s shooting 27 percent on those plays, down from about 40 percent last season, per Synergy. Anthony draws so many fouls that he can still be productive working this way, but he’s approaching the break-even point now after miserable shooting performances in five of his last six games — including going 14-of-49 (28.6 percent) from the field in the two games since spraining his left wrist at Memphis last Thursday.
Stoudemire isn’t helping, either, even if he’s isolating a bit less than last season. He’s just 13-of-50 (26 percent) in such chances.
This reflects a broken roster more than any problems with the actual players or coaches, and injured point guard Baron Davis (who is said to be nearing his return from a back injury) appears to be the only available answer. Anthony deserves a lot of credit for embracing a hybrid point forward role, running more high pick-and-rolls and posting a career-best assist rate without a corresponding increase in turnovers. But make a change like this in a compressed season, and there will be growing pains. Anthony is unaccustomed to running constant high pick-and-rolls, and he and Stoudemire — one of the league’s great pick-and-roll big men — have had a hard time working together. Stoudemire has taken just nine shots all season out of pick-and-roll plays, a number so unthinkable as to appear impossible.
For all of his brilliance, Anthony isn’t a point guard. As a distributor, he’s still most comfortable making the easiest passes out of the pick-and-roll, where the ball-handler picks up his dribble after one or two bounces and tosses the ball through a clear passing lane to a spot-up perimeter shooter. The other stuff is trickier — slick interior passes in a crowded lane, or keeping a dribble alive in a patient Chris Paul/Nash style, circling under the rim until something opens up.
That’s not Anthony’s game, and it’s never going to be. He is doing his best, but this team badly needs an organizer, a creator to fit everything together and space the floor. This is one instance in which the conventional wisdom is absolutely right: The Knicks isolate a lot and rank near the bottom in assist rate, producing an offense on par with Milwaukee’s.
• The Knicks also have shot just 31 percent from three-point range, the sixth-worst mark. It bears repeating that Billups was the best long-range shooter on the roster. Anthony’s mark (34.5 percent) is predictably more on par with his career numbers rather than the 46 percent he shot over 27 games as a Knick last season. This is especially troublesome when just two teams (Orlando and New Jersey) average more three-point attempts per game.
• Stoudemire’s play is increasingly worrisome, and not because the 29-year-old forward and Anthony are (predictably) struggling to mesh. He is shooting an Antoine Walker-esque 40.8 percent after four straight seasons of at least 50 percent, and he looks creakier and more flat-footed than ever on defense. He missed two games earlier this season with an ankle injury, and I hope for New York’s sake that the ankle is still bothering him. If it’s not, there is either an undisclosed injury, or Stoudemire’s play is declining unexpectedly fast for some reason.
Stoudemire has never been even an average defender, but he has also never been this bad. Big men and guards alike are blowing by him on the perimeter with no resistance, and the Knicks are switching so often on pick-and-rolls in part to cover for his limitations defending the play far from the hoop.
He looked explosive Wednesday on a chase-down block of Sebastian Telfair, a play on which Stoudemire ran in a long, straight line and gathered a head of steam. But Stoudemire has really struggled when it comes to quick cuts and changes of direction.
• Back to the notion that the Knicks have no plan on defense, at the macro level: It’s true, but if it’s working, who cares? The Knicks’ switching, the level of which varies depending on opponent, leaves them facing what appear to be untenable mismatches. Chandler is guarding Nash! Marcin Gortat is posting up Shumpert! New York is daring opponents to step away from their normal game plan and exploit those mismatches, and they are doing so with confidence in two things:
1. Those opponents might not be comfortable working with their back to the basket, even against smaller defenders.
2. New York can make up for the size mismatches with quick hands, well-timed double teams and unpredictable swarming. In this way, the Knicks remind me a bit of the U.S. team that won the 2010 FIBA World Championships. The Americans often played Lamar Odom at center against much bigger opponents. They invited big men to slow down and post up, confident that they could force turnovers by swiping at the ball and jumping into passing lanes.
Only Miami has forced more turnovers per possession than New York, and that high turnover rate is the biggest reason for the Knicks’ stinginess. But a stingy defense can only take you so far.
Childs2Dudley wrote:I always wonder if Portland guys pump up Nate McMillan for being an assistant on the Olympic Team. His guy Aldridge made the cut this time.skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
He is an assistant coach.
I guess Amare not being on the USA team means he sucks, right? Since this is your logic. If you disagree then your logic doesn't work here.
Who respects Mike D'Antoni? All I hear is "offensive genius" and that's about it. Nobody says this guy can win a championship with his style and nobody thinks it either.
GustavBahler wrote:+1.eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
At what point do you say that D'Antoni isn't up to the job? People rightfully gave him a pass for the first 2 seasons but that was then. I don't want the Knicks to keep playing "if we just give D'Antoni one more piece". Too many losses because the coach let the score run up too high because he wouldn't call a time out. Playing favorites with guys who were showing nothing on the floor even while they were in a tailspin. Chewing out rooks but giving the stars a pass.
Its not blood lust, its his track record. Its not seeing him get the team to play hard in any of his 4 years as coach on a consistent basis no matter who was on the floor. I don't believe we've seen that from any coach since JVG so its not just him. In the end, fair on not, its on the coach. He will have had a 4 year run. He was given a fair chance and a two year grace period to make things work, most coaches don't get that regardless of the starting point.
Its not bloodlust or hate, its results or the lack thereof. I say give him this season to at least take the Knicks past the first round and put up a good fight in the second. If he can't do that then I believe we should look for a new coach.
CrushAlot wrote:GustavBahler wrote:+1.eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
At what point do you say that D'Antoni isn't up to the job? People rightfully gave him a pass for the first 2 seasons but that was then. I don't want the Knicks to keep playing "if we just give D'Antoni one more piece". Too many losses because the coach let the score run up too high because he wouldn't call a time out. Playing favorites with guys who were showing nothing on the floor even while they were in a tailspin. Chewing out rooks but giving the stars a pass.
Its not blood lust, its his track record. Its not seeing him get the team to play hard in any of his 4 years as coach on a consistent basis no matter who was on the floor. I don't believe we've seen that from any coach since JVG so its not just him. In the end, fair on not, its on the coach. He will have had a 4 year run. He was given a fair chance and a two year grace period to make things work, most coaches don't get that regardless of the starting point.
Its not bloodlust or hate, its results or the lack thereof. I say give him this season to at least take the Knicks past the first round and put up a good fight in the second. If he can't do that then I believe we should look for a new coach.
+2
skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?
Wrong. I defended him when he was hired. I liked him, because he seemed open, funny- able to laugh a bit at himself.
However, I think seeing him up close now for close to four years, not playing Douglas when all he had to do was develop the rookies and lose games, winning just enough games not to get draft position his first year.
All of it adds up, and I think it can be summed up as follows:
He's a European Coach.
Nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't fit.
I think he's very intelligent, and likes his players to be smart. But athletic players that might be intellectually challenged, he has no use for them, no matter what they can bring.
He doesn't appear to motivate guys, and seems instead to like to sit back, and let the players 'play'.
He hasn't adjusted one iota to the tools & strengths of his players.
His defensive philosophy allows opposing teams to come in, and light us up, often jumping out to 20 point leads in the first quarter, putting up 30-40 points on us.
Give me Don Chaney! Lets give Herb Williams a shot.
This group needs fundamentals. The offense needs to be spelled out in predictable, Hubie Brown fashion.
franco12 wrote:- You can spell it our all day, but if your students are illiterate it ain't gonna mean jack.Forgive me I am drunk and my head hurts, but I have to respond to this. Are you serious?? See comments inline.skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?Wrong. I defended him when he was hired. I liked him, because he seemed open, funny- able to laugh a bit at himself.
However, I think seeing him up close now for close to four years, not playing Douglas when all he had to do was develop the rookies and lose games, winning just enough games not to get draft position his first year. Not playing Douglas? The same Douglas who is probably the worst starte in the league, but yeah shame on th ecoach for not playing the two bit piece of sh**
All of it adds up, and I think it can be summed up as follows:
He's a European Coach.
Nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't fit. Finally we come to the root cause of MDA hate - XENOPHOBIA
I think he's very intelligent, and likes his players to be smart. But athletic players that might be intellectually challenged, he has no use for them, no matter what they can bring.He doesn't appear to motivate guys, and seems instead to like to sit back, and let the players 'play'. Tell me how you see Melo compared to George Karl days. Mozgov? Felton? Gallo? All played unmotivated, roght?
He hasn't adjusted one iota to the tools & strengths of his players. Yeah we are so playing SSOL, our defense just shows it.
His defensive philosophy allows opposing teams to come in, and light us up, often jumping out to 20 point leads in the first quarter, putting up 30-40 points on us. - Exactly where did he say that was his defensive philosophy?
Give me Don Chaney! Lets give Herb Williams a shot. - UHH my head really hurts now!
This group needs fundamentals. The offense needs to be spelled out in predictable, Hubie Brown fashion.
Open minded is different than being realistic. MDA hasn't shown anything in his long tenure here.
eViL wrote:skeng wrote:MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Childs2Dudley wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?There aren't many in the league who respect him.
Lol?So it's the minority of the basketball minds in USA that respect this guy, yet he is chosen to be part of your national team coaching staff?
D'Antoni is a polarizing figure. just gotta accept that. there is no convincing people who don't like him to be open-minded.
plus, this is NY we're talking about. 5 weeks ago everyone wanted Tom Coughlin fired. today everyone has always loved him.
eViL wrote:skeng wrote:I just don't see how firing our coach solves anything. It's still on the players to give the effort and willingness to pass the ball and trust one another. And if it's a question of respect for the coach, then I'm not sure I want to root for these players.it satisfies the blood lust of the fans. that's about it.
That's the funny thing. Critics of MDA point to his many deficiencies and lack of results. Supporters of MDA can't do the opposite but only attack the critics, as if by doing so they prove MDA is a good coach. It's laughable.
franco12 wrote:skeng wrote:It's ridiculous how anti MDA you guys are. Ever since he came, it's been constant criticism. How can the league respect this guy, but us knick fans can't?Wrong. I defended him when he was hired. I liked him, because he seemed open, funny- able to laugh a bit at himself.
However, I think seeing him up close now for close to four years, not playing Douglas when all he had to do was develop the rookies and lose games, winning just enough games not to get draft position his first year.
All of it adds up, and I think it can be summed up as follows:
He's a European Coach.
Nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't fit.
I think he's very intelligent, and likes his players to be smart. But athletic players that might be intellectually challenged, he has no use for them, no matter what they can bring.
He doesn't appear to motivate guys, and seems instead to like to sit back, and let the players 'play'.
He hasn't adjusted one iota to the tools & strengths of his players.
His defensive philosophy allows opposing teams to come in, and light us up, often jumping out to 20 point leads in the first quarter, putting up 30-40 points on us.
Give me Don Chaney! Lets give Herb Williams a shot.This group needs fundamentals. The offense needs to be spelled out in predictable, Hubie Brown fashion.
So it's the yoots not playing game again. TD has averaged around 20 minutes per game since he was drafted. 24 his second year. Adequate playing time imo. Now, people want to cut his head off. Gallo and Wil played plentifully. Fields and Moz too. Shump now. And then on the other hand, you have Crush criticizing the lack of results. I mean, you don't bring in a coach coming off those succesful seasons in Phoenix to tank the season - can't fault MDA for having a little more pride than that. At least not in my opinion.
So we had 4 years of MDA where at first, he doesn't fit because he doesn't want to tank, and later he doesn't fit because we have an incomplete team.
As far as his defensive philosophy goes it has so far featured D Lee, DuDu, later STAT (probably the most disinterested star in the history of basketball on the defensive end), and no centers of any quality until this season.
Phil Jax is chill and all laid back at games too. And he hasn't played anything but triangle offense.
I will agree with you on the lack of motivational prowess of MDA. And his tendencies to not hold players responsible for shyt play and yanking them out. And his timing of timeouts can be a little off, yes. Way off sometimes. But he wants to play an uptempo game, and I can understand him wanting to up the tempo by keeping the guys playing. But I guess that can hurt us at times.
All in all I guess my standpoint with MDA is that no way we fire him at this time, it's just ridiculous imo. Go ahead and change coach in the offseason, please. But no more mid season mix ups.