Knicks · Post Trade The Knicks Lack Balance and Depth (page 1)

The offense is sick and the balance is WAY off. I've harped on the lack of a PG, but it's more than just having a PG. The PG has to be a legitimate threat to score and be one of the top usage players on the team. We don't have that player here and much like Duhon who wasn't any kind of legit threat, the offense suffers when the PG isn't scoring nor setting up teammates for easy scores. It's a HUGE factor.

Last year: 
       FGA/game  - TS%
STAT - 19.0        .565 (STAT actually dipped a bit when Melo came)
Melo - 19.9        .575
CB   - 12.3        .483
STAT    - 19.0     .565 
Felton  - 14.8     .524
Wilson  - 14.0     .548
Gallo   - 10.6     .600
This year:
       FGA/game  - TS%
Melo - 20.0        .501  
STAT - 15.4        .499
Iman - 11.4        .443
TD   - 10.9        .397

Looking at this purely objectively from an offensive standpoint. We really miss a TON not having replaced what we lost when Felton/CB were traded. Not even talking about the Assists that we're lacking and the floor leadership, but just their offensive production alone is a huge dropoff. Felton was at a very high level. Near All Star level for a stretch. Basically if Baron can't play at the level of at least Billups as he did last year, this team will be in trouble.

The STAT, Felton, Gallo and Wilson group was the best one for overall production. Gallo was very efficient and we never replaced Wilson's production. Melo doesn't equal up to Gallo and Wilson efficiency wise, so this team needs more talent, which is what I believe the Knicks are looking to do later this season. It's true that the trade really depleted this roster and killed the balance the team had. No PG and No Sixth man either. You can't win like this. It's imperative that they add another scorer.

One thing I dislike about this off season is not keeping Extra E. Our spacing is horrendous. As much as I'm opposed to trading our players, I would honestly consider trading Melo + fillers for Deron, Morrow and Extra E. I don't think STAT cuts it value wise. Slide Fields to SF and see whatta gwaan.

Lineup:

Starters 1-5
C Tyson
F STAT
F Fields
G Morrow/Shump
G Deron

Bench 6-10
Shawne, Shump, B Diddy, Jorts with BD being the bench general. Mix up the lineups by playing Jorts/STAT at C and go small ball with Extra E sliding to PF - kinda in the same alley as Dallas did last year.

Let Deron be our closer together with STAT.

We got took.

Skeng - nice paper airplane dream. Dolan would need to admit his HUGE intervention error, overruling Donnie Walsh, to approve any deal for Carmelo.

Seen?

if only someone, anyone, would have called it to our attention that the trade was going to rob us of our depth and leave us in no position to complete the roster. why did no one see this coming? WHY????????????

eViL wrote:if only someone, anyone, would have called it to our attention that the trade was going to rob us of our depth and leave us in no position to complete the roster. why did no one see this coming? WHY????????????

(insert photo of Nancy Kerrigan after being popped in the knees)

Rinse and repeat.

They were pretty balanced last year after the trade. This year they are unbalanced because they lack a pg. Amare thrives in pick and roll without a pg his numbers are going to suffer. Melo is a scorer and his game is suffering because he is being used as distributor rather than getting the ball in positions to score and create. Without a PG even MDA has to change his system. Just go get a damn pg I don't care if it is Duhon he is better than whatever the Knicks have.

Vmart wrote:Melo is a scorer and his game is suffering because he is being used as distributor rather than getting the ball in positions to score and create.

Melo is being exposed as a manufactured NBA superstar. A guy whose one-on-one skills have made him a top scorer when featured heavily in a team's offense. But also a guy who doesn't effect the win-column nearly as much as people want to give him credit for. He's a Jordan Brand creation. Sell kicks first, win games maybe.

He's not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Just play basketball. Move the rock. Cut. He can't do that. What he can do is actually far from what basketball is supposed to be. Pound the rock, stall the offense, get mine. This is basketball for shoe marketers, not for winning teams.

Post Of The Week, Hands Down

eViL wrote:Melo is being exposed as a manufactured NBA superstar. A guy whose one-on-one skills have made him a top scorer when featured heavily in a team's offense. But also a guy who doesn't effect the win-column nearly as much as people want to give him credit for. He's a Jordan Brand creation. Sell kicks first, win games maybe.

He's not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Just play basketball. Move the rock. Cut. He can't do that. What he can do is actually far from what basketball is supposed to be. Pound the rock, stall the offense, get mine. This is basketball for shoe marketers, not for winning teams.

As Clyde might say, "Evocative and provocative."

nixluva wrote:

Looking at this purely objectively from an offensive standpoint. We really miss a TON not having replaced what we lost when Felton/CB were traded. Not even talking about the Assists that we're lacking and the floor leadership, but just their offensive production alone is a huge dropoff. Felton was at a very high level. Near All Star level for a stretch. Basically if Baron can't play at the level of at least Billups as he did last year, this team will be in trouble.

The STAT, Felton, Gallo and Wilson group was the best one for overall production. Gallo was very efficient and we never replaced Wilson's production. Melo doesn't equal up to Gallo and Wilson efficiency wise, so this team needs more talent, which is what I believe the Knicks are looking to do later this season. It's true that the trade really depleted this roster and killed the balance the team had. No PG and No Sixth man either. You can't win like this. It's imperative that they add another scorer.

Yep- I think intially people, including Baron Davis himself, thought BD would just have to come in and focus on passing, but it's become clear now that we need him to score too. Can he do that with a broken back? No idea, but i hope so.

The problem is that we can improve our depth, maybe by getting Jr Smith (yes we are that desperate), and maybe BD comes back and plays well, but the problem is timing- likely neither of those two things will happen until mid to late February, by which point it'll be too late.

eViL wrote:

Vmart wrote:Melo is a scorer and his game is suffering because he is being used as distributor rather than getting the ball in positions to score and create.

Melo is being exposed as a manufactured NBA superstar. A guy whose one-on-one skills have made him a top scorer when featured heavily in a team's offense. But also a guy who doesn't effect the win-column nearly as much as people want to give him credit for. He's a Jordan Brand creation. Sell kicks first, win games maybe.

He's not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Just play basketball. Move the rock. Cut. He can't do that. What he can do is actually far from what basketball is supposed to be. Pound the rock, stall the offense, get mine. This is basketball for shoe marketers, not for winning teams.

To be fair, we haven't seen the best of Melo- he has been playing the worst he ever has since he started piling up injuries. I'm not a huge fan of his, but lets give him a season and a point guard before we start declaring him a bust- an injured Kevin Durant would look just as awful on this team.

JR Smith.

Yes, we are a little light on back page fodder. Other than that, what exactly is he going to bring? Meditations with Melo on how much they enjoyed their time together back in the day?

This whole infatuation with Denverisms is beyond me.

smackeddog wrote:

eViL wrote:

Vmart wrote:Melo is a scorer and his game is suffering because he is being used as distributor rather than getting the ball in positions to score and create.

Melo is being exposed as a manufactured NBA superstar. A guy whose one-on-one skills have made him a top scorer when featured heavily in a team's offense. But also a guy who doesn't effect the win-column nearly as much as people want to give him credit for. He's a Jordan Brand creation. Sell kicks first, win games maybe.

He's not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Just play basketball. Move the rock. Cut. He can't do that. What he can do is actually far from what basketball is supposed to be. Pound the rock, stall the offense, get mine. This is basketball for shoe marketers, not for winning teams.

To be fair, we haven't seen the best of Melo- he has been playing the worst he ever has since he started piling up injuries. I'm not a huge fan of his, but lets give him a season and a point guard before we start declaring him a bust- an injured Kevin Durant would look just as awful on this team.

I think the 2nd half of last season was the best of Melo. His #s were way better than his career averages and he helped the team to at least stay at the .500 level.

eViL wrote:if only someone, anyone, would have called it to our attention that the trade was going to rob us of our depth and leave us in no position to complete the roster. why did no one see this coming? WHY????????????

Well put. That said, if you look at the win predictions at the start of the season, very few thought this team would struggle (due to lack of depth or any other issues).

People I posted the stats for a reason. It's not about Melo being a "manufactured superstar". Even if he played great so far this year, him alone wouldn't make up for the players we lost and their production. Many have said that this is the reason you can't compare the Knicks to the Nuggets. They already had players in place and basically replaced the guys they lost and added to their talent. The point is that this team needed to be built back up.

The biggest flaw was what we lost from Felton/CB. Tyson doesn't replace that. He's doing what he's supposed to do in making this team a better defensive team. The defense hasn't been the problem since we actually ADDED to the defense with Tyson and Shump. However, we totally whiffed on the offensive balance we had with a major drop off at the PG spot.

The PG losses are 3 fold. 1. we lose STAT's production. 2. We lose a means to control Melo's shooting too many bad shots and going ISO. 3. We lose that scoring threat at the PG spot that is what help to breakdown the defense and go NORTH-SOUTH rather the east-west like we do with the PG's we have now. That is except for Lin who is just getting into the mix. Lin could eventually be a good backup PG for this team.

So this isn't about bashing Melo. It's about what our GM has failed to address with the makeup of the team. You've got to have a PG that somewhere between a Felton and a Nash. He's got to be able to Score, Pass and PnR. Gotta improve the bench!!! We lost too much strength off the bench. Fix those areas and this is a BETTER team than we've had before, because we'll be able to defend as well as score.

Here's the big issue. Our big three consists of an all-star, a fringe all star and a non allstar all paid max or near money.

The blueprint isn't a big three. Miami has 2/4 players in the world and Chris Bosh. They have quality depth in battier, chamlers, haslem, miller. There guys play defense and can take over games. If we miss 1 of our little three we lose every night.

So the Knicks blue print should have been the path that they were on. You look at teams like Indy, Philly, Denver, Bulls, Mavs they aren't littered with All-Stars that are filled with depth. Unfortunately our front office and owner doesn't understand this. So instead of have quality depth added to our pick this year: Moz, AR, Felton, Chandler, Gallo, Fields, Douglas, Amare, Shump and a 10th man of Turiaf we virtually traded our a strength for a weakness.

Carmelo is not superior to Gallo and Chandler. Therefor we traded away assets for no reason for a guy that doesn't get it or care about anything other than his stats and money.

You attack the Heat from the point guard position. Dallas was succesful with one Star and lots of roll playing talent. The Knicks last year were not far from being an elite team in this league. What they needed was more defense and added scoring off the bench. Acquiring Chandler would have still been possible or worst case the team could have given Dalmebert a one year deal and traded for Dwight Howard. The Knicks would have the assets to make the trade orlando wanted as Amare would still be playing at a high level. The Knicks also would have had an amnesty to use. Or Lamar Odom would have been another option considering the lakers just gave him away.

Either way the Knicks would have been better off not making the trade. It's not open for debate. Melo is not elite. The Knicks are worst the Nuggets are better.

Bonn1997 wrote:

eViL wrote:if only someone, anyone, would have called it to our attention that the trade was going to rob us of our depth and leave us in no position to complete the roster. why did no one see this coming? WHY????????????

Well put. That said, if you look at the win predictions at the start of the season, very few thought this team would struggle (due to lack of depth or any other issues).

yeah, i thought they'd be great. but that's because i like to give the benefit of the doubt. i don't enjoy being right that the team would suck. i went from being one of the most vocal anti-trade people before the trade, to shutting up about it after and then supporting the team hoping it would do well.

nixluva wrote:People I posted the stats for a reason. It's not about Melo being a "manufactured superstar". Even if he played great so far this year, him alone wouldn't make up for the players we lost and their production. Many have said that this is the reason you can't compare the Knicks to the Nuggets. They already had players in place and basically replaced the guys they lost and added to their talent. The point is that this team needed to be built back up.

The biggest flaw was what we lost from Felton/CB. Tyson doesn't replace that. He's doing what he's supposed to do in making this team a better defensive team. The defense hasn't been the problem since we actually ADDED to the defense with Tyson and Shump. However, we totally whiffed on the offensive balance we had with a major drop off at the PG spot.

The PG losses are 3 fold. 1. we lose STAT's production. 2. We lose a means to control Melo's shooting too many bad shots and going ISO. 3. We lose that scoring threat at the PG spot that is what help to breakdown the defense and go NORTH-SOUTH rather the east-west like we do with the PG's we have now. That is except for Lin who is just getting into the mix. Lin could eventually be a good backup PG for this team.

So this isn't about bashing Melo. It's about what our GM has failed to address with the makeup of the team. You've got to have a PG that somewhere between a Felton and a Nash. He's got to be able to Score, Pass and PnR. Gotta improve the bench!!! We lost too much strength off the bench. Fix those areas and this is a BETTER team than we've had before, because we'll be able to defend as well as score.

any time someone complains about lack of depth, Starmelo is the first person that comes to mind. we had to give up all of our depth because he had to get his. and we're paying for it. so in 4 years when his contract is up, it will be -- well, Starmelo did what he could do, but he just didn't have the right teammates. lol.

misterearl wrote:Post Of The Week, Hands Down

eViL wrote:Melo is being exposed as a manufactured NBA superstar. A guy whose one-on-one skills have made him a top scorer when featured heavily in a team's offense. But also a guy who doesn't effect the win-column nearly as much as people want to give him credit for. He's a Jordan Brand creation. Sell kicks first, win games maybe.

He's not being asked to do anything extraordinary. Just play basketball. Move the rock. Cut. He can't do that. What he can do is actually far from what basketball is supposed to be. Pound the rock, stall the offense, get mine. This is basketball for shoe marketers, not for winning teams.

As Clyde might say, "Evocative and provocative."

thx. hope Melo can change.

eViL wrote:

nixluva wrote:People I posted the stats for a reason. It's not about Melo being a "manufactured superstar". Even if he played great so far this year, him alone wouldn't make up for the players we lost and their production. Many have said that this is the reason you can't compare the Knicks to the Nuggets. They already had players in place and basically replaced the guys they lost and added to their talent. The point is that this team needed to be built back up.

The biggest flaw was what we lost from Felton/CB. Tyson doesn't replace that. He's doing what he's supposed to do in making this team a better defensive team. The defense hasn't been the problem since we actually ADDED to the defense with Tyson and Shump. However, we totally whiffed on the offensive balance we had with a major drop off at the PG spot.

The PG losses are 3 fold. 1. we lose STAT's production. 2. We lose a means to control Melo's shooting too many bad shots and going ISO. 3. We lose that scoring threat at the PG spot that is what help to breakdown the defense and go NORTH-SOUTH rather the east-west like we do with the PG's we have now. That is except for Lin who is just getting into the mix. Lin could eventually be a good backup PG for this team.

So this isn't about bashing Melo. It's about what our GM has failed to address with the makeup of the team. You've got to have a PG that somewhere between a Felton and a Nash. He's got to be able to Score, Pass and PnR. Gotta improve the bench!!! We lost too much strength off the bench. Fix those areas and this is a BETTER team than we've had before, because we'll be able to defend as well as score.

any time someone complains about lack of depth, Starmelo is the first person that comes to mind. we had to give up all of our depth because he had to get his. and we're paying for it. so in 4 years when his contract is up, it will be -- well, Starmelo did what he could do, but he just didn't have the right teammates. lol.

We all knew this when the deal happened, but what made the impact worse was the CB for Tyson deal. It strengthened our D but ruined our offense. Grunwald has tried to address the issue with Baron and leaving the Room Exception for KMart or JR Smith. That could potentially give this team back some of what it lost in PG play and Depth. Problem is that it will be later in this short season. What does the team do until then?

eViL wrote:thx. hope Melo can change.

The thing that makes LeBron great is not his physical gifts, or the work it requires to maintain strength and speed - his greatest asset is his willingness to adjust his skill set to whatever his team needs. This season, King James wisely (pun intended) made a decision to drop the three point shot. He is running hard. Yesterday, he grabbed a rebound and sprinted past the entire Bulls defense down the court. As a result, the entire Heat team is more focused on getting to the rim.

Lebron makes the pass and is genuinely happy to see his running buddies succeed.

A true star makes those around him better.

misterearl wrote:

eViL wrote:thx. hope Melo can change.

The thing that makes LeBron great is not his physical gifts, or the work it requires to maintain strength and speed - his greatest asset is his willingness to adjust his skill set to whatever his team needs. This season, King James wisely (pun intended) made a decision to drop the three point shot. He is running hard. Yesterday, he grabbed a rebound and sprinted past the entire Bulls defense down the court. As a result, the entire Heat team is more focused on getting to the rim.

Lebron makes the pass and is genuinely happy to see his running buddies succeed.

A true star makes those around him better.

Even Lebron has struggled with how best to help his team. It's not always crystal clear to a player. If he had it figured out already, Lebron would already be an NBA champion!!!

Melo still has a lot to learn in terms of being a leader. He's going thru a test this year and it's actually good for him to take his lumps this way and be humbled. This time the coach put it all in his hands and he can't blame anyone else for his failure. It was all on him. He could shoot whenever or setup his teammates and run the offense so that it flowed. It was his team. Now maybe he an grow from this and become a better player. We'll see. Lebron just now seems to be getting it and may finally win his ring. let's hope Melo has his epiphany.