Knicks · Knicks rank fifth in points allowed per possession (page 2)

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

I would have agreed with you on this up until fairly recently... don't necessarily disagree either because the Knicks haven't been in a situation to get a stop when they need it in a big game yet. That said, I am favoring their ability to get a stop at the moment with Shump, JJ2, and Chandler on board

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

see you then

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

so how does one manipulate the points per possession stat? please explain. either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't understand the statistic.

to me, it has to be the most accurate reflection a team's defensive prowess.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/def...

we jumped from 22nd last year to 6th so far this season.

So you're telling me that the Knicks defensively are a top 6 team in the entire NBA? That's what the stats say so it must be true, right? Or can stats be misleading?

fishmike wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

ahh yes... since you cant bitch now lets wait till "playoff time"

see you then

Umm isn't that when good defensive teams shine brightest? You know, when defense matters most as each possession is magnified. I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fish.

islesfan wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

so how does one manipulate the points per possession stat? please explain. either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't understand the statistic.

to me, it has to be the most accurate reflection a team's defensive prowess.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/def...

we jumped from 22nd last year to 6th so far this season.

So you're telling me that the Knicks defensively are a top 6 team in the entire NBA? That's what the stats say so it must be true, right? Or can stats be misleading?

i'm telling you they are 6th right now. what else can either of us say? sure. they may not have played the best offensive teams and that could be a factor. but that remains to be seen. regardless, even if they fall, i'm confident that they will not fall to 22nd where they were last year. so, to me, it is already proven that they have improved on defense.

when you look at the list of leaders, it's no coincidence that the top teams this year are Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, Philly, the Lakers. look at last years top teams: Chicago, Boston, Miami, Orlando, Philly, Dallas, the Lakers....

the stat is simple and precise and in my opinion the most accurate measure of a team's defensive ability. it divides the amount of points scored against by the amount of possessions against. what is decieving about that?

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

ahh yes... since you cant bitch now lets wait till "playoff time"

see you then

Umm isn't that when good defensive teams shine brightest? You know, when defense matters most as each possession is magnified. I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fish.

the point is, you have no support to your argument that a D'Antoni team cannot play defense because this team is in fact playing defense. thus, you have to deflect it to "can they play defense in the playoffs?"

fact is, right now -- they are a much improved defensive team. you don't have anything to dispute that.

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

ahh yes... since you cant bitch now lets wait till "playoff time"

see you then

Umm isn't that when good defensive teams shine brightest? You know, when defense matters most as each possession is magnified. I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fish.

the point is, you have no support to your argument that a D'Antoni team cannot play defense because this team is in fact playing defense. thus, you have to deflect it to "can they play defense in the playoffs?"

fact is, right now -- they are a much improved defensive team. you don't have anything to dispute that.

While I agree that the Knicks are a much improved defensive team, I don't put much stock into defensive statistics.

The defensive stats, for example, made the New England Patriots look like an awful defensive team when they more or less masterd the "bend but not break" approach. And the NFL has a much more data to do a statistical analysis.

Also, I grew up listening to what a horrible defensive player Derek Jeter was, yet there was no other player I wanted the ball hit to in a big moment of a big game.

But to bring it back to basketball, the Knicks are currently 8th in defensive efficiency, yet the Spurs are 16th. If I need a stop oin a big spot, I'm taking the Spurs over the Knicks

SupremeCommander wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:

fishmike wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

ahh yes... since you cant bitch now lets wait till "playoff time"

see you then

Umm isn't that when good defensive teams shine brightest? You know, when defense matters most as each possession is magnified. I shouldn't have to explain this to you Fish.

the point is, you have no support to your argument that a D'Antoni team cannot play defense because this team is in fact playing defense. thus, you have to deflect it to "can they play defense in the playoffs?"

fact is, right now -- they are a much improved defensive team. you don't have anything to dispute that.

While I agree that the Knicks are a much improved defensive team, I don't put much stock into defensive statistics.

The defensive stats, for example, made the New England Patriots look like an awful defensive team when they more or less masterd the "bend but not break" approach. And the NFL has a much more data to do a statistical analysis.

Also, I grew up listening to what a horrible defensive player Derek Jeter was, yet there was no other player I wanted the ball hit to in a big moment of a big game.

But to bring it back to basketball, the Knicks are currently 8th in defensive efficiency, yet the Spurs are 16th. If I need a stop oin a big spot, I'm taking the Spurs over the Knicks

i get you. i'm not a big stats guy, but what else do we have here on the forum? nobody is gonna start dissecting film in this thread. although, i'd point out to anyone who hates all the switching we do, that at the end of the minny game, our switching defense baffled rubio on that possession where he dribbled it off his foot. it was a huge part of the win.

re: the football and baseball examples -- i think you are right in those cases, but i'd say that because defensive stats are particularly imperfect in those situations and in those sports doesn't mean that the same level of imperfection exists here in the basketball discussion.

the thing that's really good about points per possession is that it includes everything. imagine a team that has a very good opponent's FG% but also fouls at a higher rate than other teams. if you look just at their oppFG%, then you say "wow. they only allow 38% shooting. they are great at defense." however, they give up a lot of free points in the form of free throws. the oppFG% stat misses that. opponents points per possession does not miss that because it narrows the focus to a very simple yet precise question: what does a team get on average against your defense at each opportunity?

re: the spurs. i think the spurs have slipped a lot in defense. last year they really weren't that good at all. likely a contributing factor to their first round exit.

ultimately, i wanna see this team prove it in the playoffs just like everyone else does. i'm just happy that it appears we're heading in the right direction defensively. because i agree that to win a title, you have to be great on defense.

SupremeCommander wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

I would have agreed with you on this up until fairly recently... don't necessarily disagree either because the Knicks haven't been in a situation to get a stop when they need it in a big game yet. That said, I am favoring their ability to get a stop at the moment with Shump, JJ2, and Chandler on board

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the improved effort especially when compared to the typical Antoni teams. Having Antoni stand apart from the team on defensive huddles has really improved the Knicks defense. I just don't think their defense is as good as people are making it out to be.

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

so how does one manipulate the points per possession stat? please explain. either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't understand the statistic.

to me, it has to be the most accurate reflection a team's defensive prowess.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/def...

we jumped from 22nd last year to 6th so far this season.

So you're telling me that the Knicks defensively are a top 6 team in the entire NBA? That's what the stats say so it must be true, right? Or can stats be misleading?

i'm telling you they are 6th right now. what else can either of us say? sure. they may not have played the best offensive teams and that could be a factor. but that remains to be seen. regardless, even if they fall, i'm confident that they will not fall to 22nd where they were last year. so, to me, it is already proven that they have improved on defense.

when you look at the list of leaders, it's no coincidence that the top teams this year are Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, Philly, the Lakers. look at last years top teams: Chicago, Boston, Miami, Orlando, Philly, Dallas, the Lakers....

the stat is simple and precise and in my opinion the most accurate measure of a team's defensive ability. it divides the amount of points scored against by the amount of possessions against. what is decieving about that?

So you're saying that the Knicks are one of the top defenses in the NBA. Got it.

islesfan wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:Statistics are nice and can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say but honestly, come playoff time do you see the Knicks capable of making stops when they need to? Do you see them bearing down on the defensive end like a top defensive team would?

so how does one manipulate the points per possession stat? please explain. either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't understand the statistic.

to me, it has to be the most accurate reflection a team's defensive prowess.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/def...

we jumped from 22nd last year to 6th so far this season.

So you're telling me that the Knicks defensively are a top 6 team in the entire NBA? That's what the stats say so it must be true, right? Or can stats be misleading?

i'm telling you they are 6th right now. what else can either of us say? sure. they may not have played the best offensive teams and that could be a factor. but that remains to be seen. regardless, even if they fall, i'm confident that they will not fall to 22nd where they were last year. so, to me, it is already proven that they have improved on defense.

when you look at the list of leaders, it's no coincidence that the top teams this year are Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, Philly, the Lakers. look at last years top teams: Chicago, Boston, Miami, Orlando, Philly, Dallas, the Lakers....

the stat is simple and precise and in my opinion the most accurate measure of a team's defensive ability. it divides the amount of points scored against by the amount of possessions against. what is decieving about that?

So you're saying that the Knicks are one of the top defenses in the NBA. Got it.

how else do you interpret defensive efficiency stats? That's one you can't really manipulate.

And if you don't think they are, by what barometer are you judging good defensive teams?

islesfan wrote:So you're saying that the Knicks are one of the top defenses in the NBA. Got it.

show me the proof that they're not. otherwise, i'll take your sarcastic quip as an implied concession. always a pleasure to win an argument.

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:So you're saying that the Knicks are one of the top defenses in the NBA. Got it.

show me the proof that they're not. otherwise, i'll take your sarcastic quip as an implied concession. always a pleasure to win an argument.

Honestly just watch the games. If you're watching them and thinking that they're one of the best defensive teams in the entire league I'd be shocked.

islesfan wrote:

eViL wrote:

islesfan wrote:So you're saying that the Knicks are one of the top defenses in the NBA. Got it.

show me the proof that they're not. otherwise, i'll take your sarcastic quip as an implied concession. always a pleasure to win an argument.

Honestly just watch the games. If you're watching them and thinking that they're one of the best defensive teams in the entire league I'd be shocked.

i do watch the games. perhaps we should have another gathering so we can all watch the game together. i'd love to get real time analysis live and in person from everyone who cares to be a part of the conversation.

in my opinion, defense has been the best facet of our game. until Lin emerged, it was our offense that was a problem. this too, is supported by stats. as the Knicks are near the bottom of the league in points per possession. now that the offense is back on track, i actually expect our defense to improve even further.

repeat after me:

D'Antoni's New York Knickerbockers have improved dramatically on defense this year.

islesfan wrote:Just curious but where did the Knicks rank in points allowed per possession BEFORE Linsanity started?