Knixkik wrote:Overpaying Stoudemire was justified at the time. Not so much now, but i understood it and thought it was the right move. You must overpay to get stars. The miami cop-out is the one exception to the rule.
Yes you overpay when needed, you don't overpay because that's what you are supposed to do. When you give out a third of your salary cap to one person you better make sure they can deliver. We did theexact opposite and took a huge risk. I am not averse to risks but when you take a risk you try to at least mitigate the extent of damage. What we did was make it teh maximum possible risk.
loweyecue wrote:y2zipper wrote:loweyecue wrote:I think we overpaid for Amare though. No team would give him a 5 year guaranteed cotract the thing he wanted most, why couldn't we give him a 80M guaranteed ocntract instead of a 100M guranteed contract? Would e have walked away from that and signed with Phx for two years?
The nature of free agency is that you overpay. That's the caviat of building a team through free agency. Walsh's plan to begin with was actually to lure LeBron James to New York and when that didn't play out, the team signed Amar'e as a pre-emptive strike to both acquire a star player and make sure that they didn't get shut out. Amar'e alone is a bad contract, but you sign him to get Carmelo to want to play here and you bring Carmelo in because then guys like Chandler and J.R. Smith then want to come in for a run at a ring. Add good drafting to that and you get Fields and Shumpert and Harrelson, and suddenly you have a good team. Dolan was right to make the Melo trade, and I don't think anyone will disagree with that now that the supporting cast has actually been replaced as we thought it would. At the end of the day, I agree with Brian Cashman's assertion that free agency is about getting the player. If he wants an extra year or an opt-out and that's the difference between getting him and not getting him, you give him what he wants.
What happens if Amar'e doesn't come to the Knicks? We're New Jersey, except without Deron Williams. So yeah, it's easy to bash the contract because Stat isn't going to be a good player in year five. It's concerning that it's only year two.
Where did you see me bash the contract? I was asking what people thought of having potentially overpaid for Amare. No one was going to give amare a 5 year guratnteed contract that much was obvious. So we didn't have bid against ourselves - but this is what the Knicks do consistently.
Free agency is about getting the player and you always overpay. This isn't the same thing as Allan Houston, where New York CLEARLY overpaid for him and big against themselves. STAT's number one priority was getting that fifth year, so you give him the fifth year so that he signs. The Suns actually offered Amar'e a five year contract worth 97 million, but the last two years of the contract weren't guaranteed.
That's what I am saying! We didn't have to give him the money and the guaranteed 5 year deal, they probably could have gotten him to sign for less if they gave him with the guaranteed 5 year. Guranteed 80M would have looked better than 97M that would be down to 35 with the first injury.
if I recall, Chicago also had cap space, so it's not like NY was just competing against PHO.
I remember thinking "oh no, terrible move" at the time, and I still feel it was a bad signing.
I'd rather wait than make a hasty move, but I understand that's not how things work.
Again the arument was no one else was willing to give him a guaranteed five year deal. Not Phx, Not Chi, not no one. So when we decided to do that we could have lowered the total price a little but still make it way more than the two year guranteed amounts he would have gotten anywhere else. W/O him none of this was possile so I am not at all mad that we got him. But we did it with typical NY shoot first ask questions later style. We went all in on someone the rest of teh league wouldn't guarantee beyond two years for a very good reason. Now we are going to be maxed out with no room to make changes and caryy his contract whether he plays like Amare Stoudamire or a Kurt Tho,as w/o the defense.
loweyecue wrote:y2zipper wrote:loweyecue wrote:I think we overpaid for Amare though. No team would give him a 5 year guaranteed cotract the thing he wanted most, why couldn't we give him a 80M guaranteed ocntract instead of a 100M guranteed contract? Would e have walked away from that and signed with Phx for two years?
The nature of free agency is that you overpay. That's the caviat of building a team through free agency. Walsh's plan to begin with was actually to lure LeBron James to New York and when that didn't play out, the team signed Amar'e as a pre-emptive strike to both acquire a star player and make sure that they didn't get shut out. Amar'e alone is a bad contract, but you sign him to get Carmelo to want to play here and you bring Carmelo in because then guys like Chandler and J.R. Smith then want to come in for a run at a ring. Add good drafting to that and you get Fields and Shumpert and Harrelson, and suddenly you have a good team. Dolan was right to make the Melo trade, and I don't think anyone will disagree with that now that the supporting cast has actually been replaced as we thought it would. At the end of the day, I agree with Brian Cashman's assertion that free agency is about getting the player. If he wants an extra year or an opt-out and that's the difference between getting him and not getting him, you give him what he wants.
What happens if Amar'e doesn't come to the Knicks? We're New Jersey, except without Deron Williams. So yeah, it's easy to bash the contract because Stat isn't going to be a good player in year five. It's concerning that it's only year two.
Where did you see me bash the contract? I was asking what people thought of having potentially overpaid for Amare. No one was going to give amare a 5 year guratnteed contract that much was obvious. So we didn't have bid against ourselves - but this is what the Knicks do consistently.
so what was our options at the time..please tell me..I may have miss something
knicks1248 wrote:loweyecue wrote:y2zipper wrote:loweyecue wrote:I think we overpaid for Amare though. No team would give him a 5 year guaranteed cotract the thing he wanted most, why couldn't we give him a 80M guaranteed ocntract instead of a 100M guranteed contract? Would e have walked away from that and signed with Phx for two years?
The nature of free agency is that you overpay. That's the caviat of building a team through free agency. Walsh's plan to begin with was actually to lure LeBron James to New York and when that didn't play out, the team signed Amar'e as a pre-emptive strike to both acquire a star player and make sure that they didn't get shut out. Amar'e alone is a bad contract, but you sign him to get Carmelo to want to play here and you bring Carmelo in because then guys like Chandler and J.R. Smith then want to come in for a run at a ring. Add good drafting to that and you get Fields and Shumpert and Harrelson, and suddenly you have a good team. Dolan was right to make the Melo trade, and I don't think anyone will disagree with that now that the supporting cast has actually been replaced as we thought it would. At the end of the day, I agree with Brian Cashman's assertion that free agency is about getting the player. If he wants an extra year or an opt-out and that's the difference between getting him and not getting him, you give him what he wants.
What happens if Amar'e doesn't come to the Knicks? We're New Jersey, except without Deron Williams. So yeah, it's easy to bash the contract because Stat isn't going to be a good player in year five. It's concerning that it's only year two.
Where did you see me bash the contract? I was asking what people thought of having potentially overpaid for Amare. No one was going to give amare a 5 year guratnteed contract that much was obvious. So we didn't have bid against ourselves - but this is what the Knicks do consistently.
so what was our options at the time..please tell me..I may have miss something
Just read my post in the middle of this quoted text. Our option was to offer him less but gurantee all of it and make sure it was still way more than he would get anywhere for guaranteed two years. So a 75-80M over 5 years guranteed would have still looked better than whatever he could get for two years. It would have saved us about 4-5M per year and given us some more breathing room.
Nope. Even though they both could help this team .
Yeah, cos this team needs a scoring no-defence playing forward. That's exactly the missing piece to our puzzle.
Stat had a major injury last spring, no if's, and's, or but's. It's unknown the true extent of it, but the fact that he didn't have much basketball-related activity for so long speaks to the severity.
He has long a lot of spring/explosiveness that he had last year. We have little explanation why his camp deemed it a good idea for him to pack on 15lbs of muscle vs his playing weight of last year - this on a player with surgically repaired knees with an expiring warranty.
I think his center of gravity has been off since the beginning of the season, and he's been struggling to get his body balance right. He's probably shed some of the excess muscle since the season began, thus has begun showing flashes of his former self.
With that said, Stat has probably sacrificed the most to have Chandler fit in. Amare has traditionally played more than his fair share of center. Given the state of the position in the league, matching up the athleticism and quickness of Stoudemire vs a center is generally a good thing. The thing to watch out for is him guarding the few bruiser centers left in the league. With Chandler on the Knicks, Amare doesn't have much of a mismatch on offense - given that he's spent a lot of time parked on the perimeter.
With regard to sacrifice - look at how Kevin Garnett has seemingly fallen off the map with the Celtics. A fact of life is that the Knicks now have a lot of scoring threats on the team - so moving forward, his teammates might actually provide a better chance at scoring than he does on any given time down the court. Not a knock on Amare, but as long as opponents see him as double-team quality threat, he'll be a nice decoy.
No thanks on Zach. At least Amare isn't a ball hog. Zach is like the chubby PF version of melo. Loves iso's.
markvmc wrote:Yeah, cos this team needs a scoring no-defence playing forward. That's exactly the missing piece to our puzzle.
Isn't that what A'mare is? My argument is that with Zach and lee at least we can guarantee at least 10 rebounds a game regardless of what's happening offensively our defensively. A'mare 't brought anything. If he isn't scoring scoring he isn't a factor. At least last year he was blocking shots. Thus season he hasn't shown up.
Its an old school mentality. Rebound and play defense and you win the game. The power forward and the center anchor that. The physicality comes from your Biggs. If your Biggs are pussy the team is pussy. A'mare just isn't bribing it.
Stick Zach our lee in there and we win I've battle every night. None of these Gus play any defense but at least lee and Zach mix it up and bring intangibles.
loweyecue wrote:I think we overpaid for Amare though. No team would give him a 5 year guaranteed cotract the thing he wanted most, why couldn't we give him a 80M guaranteed ocntract instead of a 100M guranteed contract? Would e have walked away from that and signed with Phx for two years?
It looks like he was only worth a five
month max contract
Technomaster- last year people couldn't wait to let Amare play his natural position as a 4. This year we are calling it a sacrifice? Adjustment yes, but Amare should be embracing this change instead of looking clueless. He should work on that jumps hot and shoot a 100 of those before each game. He needs to do something to help the team other than talking.
last year people couldn't wait to let Amare play his natural position as a 4. This year we are calling it a sacrifice?
LOL, that's true.
I don't thin Zach or Lee are worth their contracts but they're still much more productive than Amare has been.
Bonn1997 wrote:I don't thin Zach or Lee are worth their contracts but they're still much more productive than Amare has been.
A'mare isn't worth his contract either at least this season.
A'mare recently said he is willing to sacrifice his stat for winning....he should not be saying that. There is no excuse for him not contributing to the rest of the game. Scurrying is not everything
I was surprised when I read that article where Amar'e stated he was willing to sacrifice stats for winning. I really sensed it as a cop out, an excuse for his terrible play because if he was playing the way he did last season, we wouldn't be under .500.
Its not an option. The Knicks NEED an active Stoudemire, the Knicks need the star he really is. He should be our second option, not an afterthought.
He better wake up from this because we really need him.
Knicksfan wrote:I was surprised when I read that article where Amar'e stated he was willing to sacrifice stats for winning. I really sensed it as a cop out, an excuse for his terrible play because if he was playing the way he did last season, we wouldn't be under .500.Its not an option. The Knicks NEED an active Stoudemire, the Knicks need the star he really is. He should be our second option, not an afterthought.
He better wake up from this because we really need him.
I doubt he's choosing to sacrifice stats. He probably thought saying that sounded better than saying "My knees and back are in the condition of a 60 year old man. I can't do what I used to."
I want to hear our big man saying "we have to rebound the ball and set the tone inside....that's on me. I have to do better"curing down I turnovers and shooting shouldn't be his concern. He's not a perimeter playmaker.
In terms of missing someone, its funny that you guys mention Zack and David when we already may have a better option on the team: Jorts.
Jorts not only brings good defense down low, but the guy has great range, especially from three, and is active.
