Knicks · David Stern to Retire (page 2)

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

look up "part of the reason." I'm sorry, without an international platform, the story doesn't take off the way it has. Maybe domestically, but it doesn't go international without that.

As for your second paragraph, holy Moses is that schizo. I'm sure the commissioner's policies are directly responsible the dropp off in talent

also, I don't get the hostility. LIKE I SAID, I'm happy to see him ready to retire. wow

Silver is a good dude and actually hysterical. I thought the same thing till I met him.

You try sitting across the table from Keynon Dooling, Roger Mason Jr. and Etan Thomas and explaining the collective barganing aggreement. Half these guys can't understand how to run an offense. It's not an easy job.

Read David Falks book "The Bald Truth" there are some great stories to let you know who you are dealing with out there. Falk explaining to Magic Johnson that if he signed with him that we would take more than his current agent, but he was going to get him a bigger contract..."you ain't getting more of my money" negotiating with Karl Malone who was so dumb that Falk got Ostratag more money them him.

It's a lose lose situation out there when a player like Deandre Jordan can get 10MM, Affalo 9MM, etc. What do you expect these guys to do. They opened up the sport globally, cleaned up the image of the league and have a good product. You can't blame them because getting paid 15-20MM isn't enough for guys they want to be fashion icons, produce music, etc...

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

the old owners used to value the direction Stern wanted to take the league. He set the course and the owners allowed him to run ops. According to Bill Simmons, the new owners essentially demanded that they make money on their investment, as they paid record setting sums. They basically have dictated policy to Stern. Guys like Dan Gilbert deciding that is laughable

SupremeCommander wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

well 1year is 365days so multiple years would be anywhere above 730days

If you think about how hard it is to keep 30 owners basically on the same page and at the same time collectively run the league as a single entity one might conclude that Stern has done a masterful job and earns every dime of his salary.

As the defacto CEO of the league he has been far from perfect but I think if you take a step back and look at the league, the ratings and revenue its been growing.

NFL has more players and each piece is less critical to a teams success. Im not taking anything away but roster size on Baseball and Football is quite different. Those leagues have to some degree turned away from the players being the stars and instead the teams have become the stars. More so in the NFL. A team can go from worst to a superbowl in two years. Magical seasons can hold a fan base loyal for years.

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

well 1year is 365days so multiple years would be anywhere above 730days

so your saying he has been awful for 730+ days now. Well that helps!

and I completely agree. he has been horrible for 731 days.

next!

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

Wish it was Goddell! He is ruining the NFL. I'm a huge Steelers fan, so you know how I feel about that guy! As for Stern, I like him specifically for what he did to the Lakers with CP3...... CLASSIC!!!!

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

what does ratings have to do with it. Ratings went up with the rise of Jeremy, does that help prove your point...NO. One has nothing to do with the other.

How old are you because I remember guards being able to hit free throws, point guards could pass and shooting guards could shoot. There are not too many teams and expansion has ALWAYS been Stern's baby. Expansion here and abroad which, is nothing new.

Really, what he did is what most owners might have done. Vetoed that crap deal.

What did Goodell do that you object to?

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

look up "part of the reason." I'm sorry, without an international platform, the story doesn't take off the way it has. Maybe domestically, but it doesn't go international without that.

As for your second paragraph, holy Moses is that schizo. I'm sure the commissioner's policies are directly responsible the dropp off in talent

you misunderstood my "". What I was saying was the talent level probably went up after the 90's but the number of star attractions went down because Stern's NBA was more dependent on stars then teams, and he also failed to create new stars.

^and they went about manufacturing stars instead of allowing time for them to develop. I wish Stern and the owners had taken a harder stance on the age limit. I know I'm likely in the minority with that opinion but, when kids "had" to stay in school the fundamental level of the players was much higher. The advent of the high school strait to pro's and now the one and done really helped water down the talent pool.

I know there are racial, social economical and 1st amendment issues that prevent what I wrote above but, that doesn't change the fact that the skill level is worse off.

For every Amare and Chandler you have dozens who never make get drafted or never pan out. Most come in as projects that can't shoot or dribble, having just one stand out talent that in itself isn't NBA ready.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

what does ratings have to do with it. Ratings went up with the rise of Jeremy, does that help prove your point...NO. One has nothing to do with the other.

How old are you because I remember guards being able to hit free throws, point guards could pass and shooting guards could shoot. There are not too many teams and expansion has ALWAYS been Stern's baby. Expansion here and abroad which, is nothing new.

Ratings=$

Owners wanted expansion and thats why it was Sterns baby.

Linsanity was fueled in part by international exposure. There are a whole lot of people watching the games in Asia. Lin is American born but he is of great interest because of his heritage.

Yao Ming before Lin, and they love Tony Parker in France, Luol Deng in Africa, Ginobli is a big star in Argentina, Nash in Canada, Gallo in Italy, Dirk in Germany, AK, Mozzy from Russia, etc etc. Guys like Divac, Mutumbo, Petrovich, and others from 20 years ago helped fuel expansion.

Globalization has opened up great interest the last 30 years and players from other parts of the world have made their mark and can play.

There were crappy teams before expansion.

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

what does ratings have to do with it. Ratings went up with the rise of Jeremy, does that help prove your point...NO. One has nothing to do with the other.

How old are you because I remember guards being able to hit free throws, point guards could pass and shooting guards could shoot. There are not too many teams and expansion has ALWAYS been Stern's baby. Expansion here and abroad which, is nothing new.

Ratings=$

Owners wanted expansion and thats why it was Sterns baby.

Linsanity was fueled in part by international exposure. There are a whole lot of people watching the games in Asia. Lin is American born but he is of great interest because of his heritage.

Yao Ming before Lin, and they love Tony Parker in France, Luol Deng in Africa, Ginobli is a big star in Argentina, Nash in Canada, Gallo in Italy, Dirk in Germany, AK, Mozzy from Russia, etc etc. Guys like Divac, Mutumbo, Petrovich, and others from 20 years ago helped fuel expansion.

Globalization has opened up great interest the last 30 years and players from other parts of the world have made their mark and can play.

There were crappy teams before expansion.

man, I'm not continuing this. Lets just agree to disagree instead of beating a dead horse.

The ratings and revenue rise over the years is indisputable.

Your saying "Back when I was young, men were men, and as such they hit their FT's, little men were pt guards and the big guys were in the low post, and dammit we were happy".

Then Magic Johnson came along at 6'9 and blew it all the hell.

Is Expansion the reason why teams took kids out of highschool when they lacked fundamentals? Or money?

I might say that if not for the international popularity of the game and the infusuion of foriegn players the game would suffer greatly in terms of skill level. ESPN high lights and AAU empowering 14 year olds as rock stars because they can jump and dunk has done more harm than "expansion".

IM not beating a dead horse, we discussing the evolution of the league. YOu can hate on Stern all you want but all great business models have weak outlets and problems.

Sacramento used to be a top tier attendance city until they declined. They are getting the new arena and have some nice pieces going forward. One has to admire the work Stern and the league did to keep the Kings from moving to Anaheim. The Maloofs got hit hard in the recession. Stern is loyal to his owners and Anaheim was good short term fix. Instead, Stern balanced what the owner needs vs. a City that really wants to keep its team but the economics of a new arena is not easy. Stern and the league failed in Seattle. Maybe they learned and amended to not repeat.

Seattle was a great NBA city until weak ownership came to be and the team went into rebuild mode. Its a shame they moved but the city who built a new baseball stadium and football did not handle the Arena issue well. That team is now the Thunder and they kill it in OK!

New Orleans owned by George Shinn made some really bad moves. The decline in Charlotte had to do with Shinn trading out his best players, his nasty public sexual harassment suits,Death of Bobby PHils who was racing his car, the murder by Ray Carruth all leading the disinchantment of fans towards pro atheletes in Charlotte. Fans were fed up with all this and a the same time were whining his 10 year old arena was out of date (it was by modern standards) Charlotte was never a powerhouse team by any measure led the league in attndance!!!!!

Had George Shinn not been an idiot and sold 51% to JOrdan instead of only offering 49% they likley would not have moved and got the arena done. Shinn was free to take his incentive money to NOLA. Look at him now!

Robert Johnson, the first Black owner of a pro franchise was underfunded or unwilling to spend to get the franchise right. He could have had Dwight instead of Okafor if he was not fearful either.

The Nets got a new owner and will be going to brooklyn. Its gonna be big.

So basically we got one franchise in trouble out of 30 (NOLA)and the league owns it and will stablize it.

Nalod wrote:The ratings and revenue rise over the years is indisputable.

Sorry dude, you're wrong about a ratings rise unless you're referring to a blip from 2010 to 2011. Most of the things you talk about with Stern is mostly managerial stuff. For that, I think Stern was a fine manager for the NBA as far as managing the owners for the financial stability of the league and other administrative stuff. However the NBA Commisioner is also the leader of the sport, and is in control of the overall direction and popularity of the NBA.

While I wouldn't be surprised that revenue is higher, that doesn't mean as much because jerseys, licensing deals, sponsorship, merchandise, luxury boxes, TV rights fees, and tickets are SO much more expensive than they were 15 years ago, so everything from the Globetrotters to WWE and Sesame Street makes more money by the nature of the market, not due to increases in popularity. However the actual popularity of the NBA is drastically down and the percentage of people that watch the NBA since the 2000's versus the 90's is severely down, and that's all David Stern.

The problem is David Stern's marketing model is SOLELY reliant on individual stars determining the popularity of the entire sport. Magic & Bird created the boom in the 80's that Stern was fortunate to be in charge of at the time, and he did nothing at that time that no other commisioner would've done to capitalize on the popularity of those two. Lightning struck again when Michael Jordan came in, Jordan became the biggest star in NBA history and its top draw. One can say Stern had a greater hand in making Jordan so big, as they did things like giving him Dennis Rodman for Will Perdue, and even went so far as to informally introduce "Jordan rules" and "superstar treatment", and even changed the rules to hurt the Knicks in the mid 90's since they were the Bulls toughest opponents.

But instead of having the foresight to realize that waiting for the "next Jordan" isn't a very stable business model and changing things, he continued to look for the "next Jordan". First a laughable attempt with Charles Barkley and then a young Kobe Bryant. And what happens when you try to build a league around an individual star again? Lightning stops striking. As talented as Kobe was, he was extremely unlikable and was involved in a very public sexual assault case.

The overall problem with the NBA is, their strategy to appeal to fans is to push, literally a handful of teams and a couple of players nationally. Stern's vision of the NBA isn't 30 attractions geographically spaced throughout the land, its a vision of everyone in America wearing Kobe Bryant and LeBron James' jerseys like they did with the Bulls in the 90's. It's way too narrow, and at some point, fans see enough "superstar treatment" and realize if they aren't into one of those handpicked teams its a losing proposition. And the ratings reflect this.

Jordan NBA Finals avg ratings (rounded): 16, 14, 18, 12, 14, 17, 17, 19
Post-Jordan NBA Finals avg ratings (rounded): 11,12,12,12,10,6,12,8,8,6,9,8,10,10

From the Jordan era, the lowest rated finals were the Knicks-Rockets in '94 (Jordan retired) at 12.4 which is still greater than any finals (featuring Stern's handpicked stars and teams) since 1998, which shows that David Stern has yet to do anything to make the NBA anywhere as popular as it was, even in their first year without Jordan 1994.

And a lot of the problems have to do with the format of the NBA which is all David Stern. In the 12 seasons since 2000, the NBA has seen exactly 5 teams win the NBA championship (Only 2 of those teams were first time champs Mavs/Heat. During this time ratings hovered around 11-12 for five years before it dropped to around 6- 10 ever since. I'd call that a decline under any criteria. The past two NBA Finals which cracked a 10 avg rating for the first time since 2004, featured LeBron James (individual star) and the Lakers-Celtics (feud from the past). The same Stern formula, yet still was destroyed by the Knicks-Rockets from 1994.

David Stern has completely failed to create any consistent interest in the NBA anywhere close what it was in the 90's and 80's. He continues to rely on individual star power and building the entire NBA around 2-3 teams, which has clearly failed.
Meanwhile since 2000, the NFL has seen 9 teams win the championship, 5 of which had never won the championship ever. And the ratings for this show has consistently increased every year by about a million. If there was doubt about the SB being an indicator of anything, note the NFL playoffs have broken records every season in recent years as well as primetime games. This is not a coincidence.

While the NFL has stars and superstar teams, they are not dependent on them to create popularity of the league like the NBA has done. Not only that, the NFL is infinitely better at creating stars than the NBA. The majority of casual NFL followers could name at least one player on at least 20 of the teams in the league. Honestly how many casual NBA followers could name a player on more than 6 or 7 teams?

And part of the problem is the Playoff system. In 2001, the NFL re-aligned and created their modern system where the division winners automatically get 8 of the 12 spots (as opposed to 6 like before) in the playoffs. This system makes it far easier for upsets to occur, and for underdog teams to win. I'm not debating the merits of this system but the results have created MUCH more variety and unpredictability in the championship teams and builds many superstars. Meanwhile David Stern went so far as to change the system in the 2000's to increase the first round to seven games SOLELY so his handpicked Kobe Laker team (which was prone to upsets that year) would have a better chance of getting out of the first round. God forbid a new team gets a chance to shine. This is what David Stern is about, limiting the teams that can represent the NBA as champions.

As for international expansion, while that is a sound business move, it means zip to America. When people in the US stopped caring about Michael Jackson and the WWE, they targeted international too, because they need money, but THE last time America was ever affected by the popularity of something outside of America was the Beatles. I'm not saying that's right (as it speaks more of American arrogance), but the NBA being big in Croatia or China does not make it more popular in the US, as evidenced by the consistent drop of ratings since 1998, when the NBA began to market itself stronger overseas. Yao Ming's popularity in China was amusing to Americans, but I defy anyone to supply a video of anyone saying "Oh, my God, this (blank) is SO popular in China I just have to see him!"

The bottom line is the David Stern formula of basing the NBA around 3-4 teams and 1-2 superstars is failed business model relying far too much on the planets aligning and the right guy coming at the right time. Maybe Jeremy Lin IS that guy (I certainly hope so), but it is a stupid way to build and promote a major league sport. The NBA isn't dying or anything, but until they change things, the NBA will continue to wait for "superman" to crash on Earth from Krypton like he did in the 80's and 90's and that's not a smart way to do things. Just like someone said earlier, good riddance to David Stern, and hopefully the new NBA commisioner can model things more like the NFL, rather than the Stern NBA.