Knicks · Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" (page 2)

misterearl @ 3/12/2012 11:25 AM
Outstanding Thread

mrKnickShot wrote:Nixluva writes it other threads how he needed rest after playing the WHOLE 1st QUARTER!!! Where have you gone Wilt Chamberlain who used to play 48 minutes a game? That is preposterous!! Help the guy out coach! Or, is that not in your best interest? Very peculiar ... and it smells really bad.

If my leading man is playing well and into a groove offensively, he stays on the floor until he begs to come out. When he begs to come out, he stays in there. In the same vein, if Jeremy Lin is in the midst of a 5-18 afternoon, he must remember not to overlook the earthbound Amar'e Stoudemire for nearly an entire quarter. Baron Davis ignored Steve Novak. Landry Fields is a perfect man to get going against the Sixers. He was overlooked by his best friend.

The Good News - Our issues are correctable.

The Bad News - April is right around the corner and the native New Yorkers are restless.

The Sixers were a great tutorial on why you do NOT throw lazy passes. There was an obvious inbounds violation that Amar'e had in the first half that the refs let slide. No excuses. Pass the pill with purpose and with zip. If it hits a dude in the face, maybe next time he will have his hands up and his head on a swivel.

For all of Mike D'Antoni's offensive genius, leading the league in turnovers is not cool.

Vmart @ 3/12/2012 11:26 AM
I know this going to sound crazy, but then most everyone on the board is its time to reduce the rotation. Time to sack Smith and Baron Davis. Bring back Bibby and Douglass into the rotation. Go back to Shumpert, Jefferies,and Novak in the rotation. I'm not blaming Smith and Davis for anything I just feel that they are the reason for the teams unhappy play. Sounds crazy right but listen MDA knows how to put his foot in the mouth all to well. Ever since he put it out there that he can see Davis replacing Lin in the starting rotation the team has been lost. MDA increased the rift between Melo, when Melo said he asked MDA to get lin into the game. Would it have hurt MDA to basically say that he recommended Lin and so did other teammates. He says what he means than hides behind a chuckle. Melo was looking for help from MDA, melo put is hand out for help from media who was in destroy mode and you know what MDA left Melo hanging. He has to get his team back that means let the team know that Lin is going to be his guy, only way to do that is to state it or by not playing Davis. Same with Smith he lost Shumpert and Fields who I feel are greatly affected by Smith's presence. The team needs continuity only way to do that is a reduced rotation.
misterearl @ 3/12/2012 11:27 AM
VMart - you lost me the nanosecond you said Bibby and Douglas.
HugeKnick4 @ 3/12/2012 11:55 AM
VMart...we don't need more rotation experimention. Bibby? Did you say Bibby? ROTFLMAO! That guy just wants to sit down at the end of the bench and chuckle. I don't know what happened to that cat. His shot is as flat as Field's shot! Who teaches these NBA players the proper arc anyway. Fields and Bibby throw liners and Lin seems like he is trying to make up for their lack of arc by throwing the ball over the moon! LOL!
Vmart @ 3/12/2012 11:56 AM
misterearl wrote:VMart - you lost me the nanosecond you said Bibby and Douglas.

Job security Misterearl, Job security.

misterearl @ 3/12/2012 12:06 PM
Vmart wrote:Job security Misterearl, Job security.

The Answer Man would rather win basketball games.

The Post Linsanity Shift du Jour +1

Lin, still learning the league
Fields, still learning not to defer to anyone
Carmelo, learning the joy of the catch and shoot
Jeffries, we miss you
Chandler, The Captain

Reserves

Shumpert, sixth man
Novak, shoot it and keep shooting
Davis, keep it moving
JR Smith, you have the skill set to rebound like Rodman, do it.

Harrelson, get inside dude
Amar'e Stoudemire, to injured reserve for "knee tendonitis", out of respect

Vmart @ 3/12/2012 12:08 PM
misterearl wrote:
Vmart wrote:Job security Misterearl, Job security.

The Answer Man would rather win basketball games.

The Post Linsanity Shift du Jour +1

Lin, still learning the league
Fields, still learning not to defer to anyone
Carmelo, learning the joy of the catch and shoot
Jeffries, we miss you
Chandler, The Captain

Reserves

Shumpert, sixth man
Novak, shoot it and keep shooting
Davis, keep it moving
JR Smith, you have the skill set to rebound like Rodman, do it.

Harrelson, get inside dude
Amar'e Stoudemire, to injured reserve for "knee tendonitis", out of respect

Smith is not Rodman he is a sg that is not consistent. He doesn't rebound or is he in the game to do that. Smith is hurting Shumpert and fields. Unnecessary cog in the system shouldn't even be a Knick.

misterearl @ 3/12/2012 12:41 PM
VMart - please work on your reading comprehension. The offer was made for a specific task that JR Smith could contribute to the second shift. Building a team, in this sense, is about filling specific skill sets to form a cohesive whole. Where Smith has been a scorer in the past, the suggestion is to reinvent his game - as they ALL must in order to be productive as a team - and find joy in New York

Lin: anticipate defensive pressure against elite guards quicker
Fields: must finish strong. Bill Walton: "Throw it down big man, throw it down!"
Carmelo: see "catch and shoot". Play better defense than Bill Walker. It is that simple.
Jeffries: stay healthy my friend
The Captain: just one low post move. Just one. One.

SupremeCommander @ 3/12/2012 12:54 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

ChuckBuck @ 3/12/2012 12:59 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

JCrusher @ 3/12/2012 1:00 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group
mrKnickShot @ 3/12/2012 1:02 PM
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

JCrusher @ 3/12/2012 1:03 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL
ChuckBuck @ 3/12/2012 1:16 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

It's amazing that some people don't see it...we needed a desperation move to play Lin extended minutes to beat the crappy one man team Nets. We had a horrible horrible game against Toronto that needed a buzzer beater by Lin. And no bandwagon Knicks fan (or posters that signed on in February ) seem to acknowledge the one loss during "Linsanity" against the lowly lottery bound Hornets. It's like those near triple doubles Lin had (the bad kind with turnovers) never happened...Just SMH. Believe me, it hurts me saying this because that 2 week period was one of the greatest in recent Knicks history, but it was all a mirage. Whoever thought that teams wouldn't finally figure out Lin are delirious...it was up to the coach to make adjustments, and he hasn't. Is their still hope for this club? Sure. Just don't think it'll be under the current coach's watch...

JCrusher @ 3/12/2012 1:18 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

It's amazing that some people don't see it...we needed a desperation move to play Lin extended minutes to beat the crappy one man team Nets. We had a horrible horrible game against Toronto that needed a buzzer beater by Lin. And no bandwagon Knicks fan (or posters that signed on in February ) seem to acknowledge the one loss during "Linsanity" against the lowly lottery bound Hornets. It's like those near triple doubles Lin had (the bad kind with turnovers) never happened...Just SMH. Believe me, it hurts me saying this because that 2 week period was one of the greatest in recent Knicks history, but it was all a mirage. Whoever thought that teams wouldn't finally figure out Lin are delirious...it was up to the coach to make adjustments, and he hasn't. Is their still hope for this club? Sure. Just don't think it'll be under the current coach's watch...

Let me ask you soemthing why do you hate those players o much. I mean if you are a knicks fan and they are knicks players who were playing well shouldnt you ber happy about that
mrKnickShot @ 3/12/2012 1:18 PM
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL

39. You?

JCrusher @ 3/12/2012 1:19 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL

39. You?

89
mrKnickShot @ 3/12/2012 1:20 PM
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL

39. You?

89

String.replace(8,1)

JCrusher @ 3/12/2012 1:21 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL

39. You?

89

String.replace(8,1)

hey man im a war veteran
mrKnickShot @ 3/12/2012 1:25 PM
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

Seriously how old are you i wont tell promise LOL

39. You?

89

String.replace(8,1)

hey man im a war veteran

Hey. Nintendo wars don't count. LOL LOL LOL

ChuckBuck @ 3/12/2012 1:29 PM
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
JCrusher wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:This stuff is pretty frustrating to constantly read and re-read... do people realize how rare it is to get an NBA starter mid season when the opposition has literally no knowledge of that player? has that ever happened? other NBA teams were going to adjust and it is naive and foolish to assume otherwise

Again, Jeremy Lin is part of the solution but Jeremy Lin is not the solution.

You are making sense - thats not what people want. They want to rant that when they won the 8-1 championship it was impossible to shut that all star team down. And if now, they would go back to that line up, we would of course based on the roster and previous history, go 8-1 again? Right?

Tunnel-Vission-Illogic

well said

You guys are wrong! Don't you know we win the championship with this starting lineup?

Jeremy Lin
Landry Fields
Bill Walker
Jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler

Teams like Chicago and Miami tremble at the thought of facing them in the first round.

Be afraid of that juggernaut lineup...BE VERY AFRAID!!!

well one thing is for sure Chuck we seem to win with that group

Yes. We would have obviously beaten Boston, SA, Miami and Dallas on the road with that team. How could anybody argue that? That team was 8-1. And we won a ring with that team LOL

It's amazing that some people don't see it...we needed a desperation move to play Lin extended minutes to beat the crappy one man team Nets. We had a horrible horrible game against Toronto that needed a buzzer beater by Lin. And no bandwagon Knicks fan (or posters that signed on in February ) seem to acknowledge the one loss during "Linsanity" against the lowly lottery bound Hornets. It's like those near triple doubles Lin had (the bad kind with turnovers) never happened...Just SMH. Believe me, it hurts me saying this because that 2 week period was one of the greatest in recent Knicks history, but it was all a mirage. Whoever thought that teams wouldn't finally figure out Lin are delirious...it was up to the coach to make adjustments, and he hasn't. Is their still hope for this club? Sure. Just don't think it'll be under the current coach's watch...

Let me ask you soemthing why do you hate those players o much. I mean if you are a knicks fan and they are knicks players who were playing well shouldnt you ber happy about that

They were playing all out of their minds at the height of Linsanity. They were playing full court press at some points like a college team. Do you honestly think that talent and coaching doesn't eventuall rise to the top? I like Lin alot. For all his mistakes, the guy balls his heart out. Melo, as crappy a season as he's had, can probably bounce back to all star level in a game or two. Amare, you probably need a time machine to get him back. But do you honestly think a team with Billy Walker and Jared Jeffries in the starting lineup could match up to an OKC or Miami at all, let alone beat them?

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