mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Knicksfan wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:nixluva wrote:It's clear as day!!! When Lin came on the scene and Melo was out of the picture, the team quickly came together, playing TEAM BALL. It wasn't about the opposition. It was about the style of play. The energy of the players. The thing is that they didn't play great offensively, but they were GREAT defensively. During the Steak the team was holding teams to about 93 pts per 100 possessions, which is excellent. Teams weren't shooting a high % either.Now when you add to this equation that with Melo the pace slows down on both ends. We have less ball and player movement cuz as soon as Melo gets it the movement stops, so he can do his thing. It doesn't have to be like that. MDA tried to run plays where there was motion off of Melo post ups. It wasn't totally consistent, but I think if they worked on it and if Melo was committed to it they could find success.
The best example for Melo in my mind is Pierce. Pierce just fits in now. He's not trying to Dominate the game anymore. He does step up when it's needed and is very clutch. That's what Melo could do, but I think he still wants to be the ball dominant star.
Its all cause we are missing JJ. Especially the defensive numbers. If JJ comes back and we sit Melo, we can finally go back to playing 800 ball. Its as clear as day! I SEE THE LIGHT! AMEN!
And Melo will need to start thinking how to adjust to his next coach.
Nah, Melo will carry us to even greater heights than 800! You just know it. Who believes in a kid that just got promoted from the bench and got a group of backups to play better than expected when it obviously was the easy schedule. Melo has been in this league longer and arrived as a star, so of course he has this under control.
2-8 with him? Nah, that's just false.
hahaha - touche!
I guess we will see soon under the new coach how this will turn out.
Melo's been an inefficient chucker under all coaches. Why would it be any different under the next one?
If Melo was an inefficient chucker then so was kobe - stats are almost exact. Oh, but who has the time to check stats? ME!
Kobe is more efficient. He has a slightly higher TS% and much better assist turnover ratio.
Is that all ya got? I can live with that.
Including this sh1tty year:
Kobe vs Melo (Offense)
-----------------------
Pts Kobe=25.4 vs Melo=24.7
Reb Kobe=5.3 vs Melo=6.3
Assist Kobe=4.7 vs Melo=3.1
Turnovers Kobe=3.0 vs Melo=2.7
FG% Kobe=45.4 vs Melo=45.6
3 pt FG% Kobe=33.6 vs Melo=31.9
FT Attempts kobe=7.6 vs Melo=7.8
FT % Kobe=83% vs Melo=80%
Bonn, be fair. Its not exact but its damn close! And, Melo's numbers this year did not help him here.
You're not going to be able to reach any useful conclusions by eyeballing that many numbers. I'd look at win shares (or ws/48) to get a good comprehensive statistical evaluation.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...Melo is merely a slightly above average NBA starter; what's happened with the Knicks post-trade was predictable and predicted. Few thought it would be this bad but many expected the team to be stuck around .500.
GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
What is this win share business?
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
I have to admit that I was wrong and you were right. I did not fully agree with you on Melo and I thought he could become a more efficient players here. I was misled by his performance last year when he got here and actually did seem to play better. I overlooked his faults. In particular the intangible stuff that doesn't show up in stats as easily. His effort level overall. When you see other players that routinely dive on the floor or run back and get into the play on fastbreaks for the other team, or make the effort to blockout for an entire game, those kinds of things lead to wins. I'm afraid Melo just doesn't want to do those things. STAT is in that same boat. They will make token effort for a period of time but not for 48 mins.
ramtour420 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
What is this win share business?
There's a definition on the website. The formula is really complicated but more so than PER (the most commonly used statistic), it takes into account a player's offensive efficiency. (David Berry has done some impressive regression analyses indicating the importance of offensive efficiency.)
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
I have to admit that I was wrong and you were right. I did not fully agree with you on Melo and I thought he could become a more efficient players here. I was misled by his performance last year when he got here and actually did seem to play better. I overlooked his faults. In particular the intangible stuff that doesn't show up in stats as easily. His effort level overall. When you see other players that routinely dive on the floor or run back and get into the play on fastbreaks for the other team, or make the effort to blockout for an entire game, those kinds of things lead to wins. I'm afraid Melo just doesn't want to do those things. STAT is in that same boat. They will make token effort for a period of time but not for 48 mins.
You two should get a room. MDA might be jealous - hahaha
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
I have to admit that I was wrong and you were right. I did not fully agree with you on Melo and I thought he could become a more efficient players here. I was misled by his performance last year when he got here and actually did seem to play better. I overlooked his faults. In particular the intangible stuff that doesn't show up in stats as easily. His effort level overall. When you see other players that routinely dive on the floor or run back and get into the play on fastbreaks for the other team, or make the effort to blockout for an entire game, those kinds of things lead to wins. I'm afraid Melo just doesn't want to do those things. STAT is in that same boat. They will make token effort for a period of time but not for 48 mins.
For a long time, MLB GMs thought batting average, HR, and RBI were the most important stats. Eventually the A's and a few other low-budget teams realized that on base % and slugging % were much more important, and they used that to their advantage. Now all GMs look at those and other complex stats. The first NBA team owner who hires a GM that looks at the right info. is going to have the same advantage the A's had.
With Melo, I've really wanted to believe. He's shown glimpses of getting it right but then he resorts to chucking. I don't think he has the split second decision making to ever be a legitimate superstar but I do think he can be a much better player if he changes his mindset (and comes into training camp next season in better shape). I think Nalod put it best when he said that you don't bring in veteran players to try to change them.
Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.
Win shares is another tool for cut and dry sports like Baseball where you can single out every play against a definite value........27 outs.
If you look at Amares W/S it is about where .10 points lower. What does that tell me if I never seen this two players play???? Not a damn thing. Basketball is not baseball, to you can't firgue the value of a walk versus the value of getting a triple team.
Bonn1997 wrote:Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.
Monta Ellis plays for a team that has been to the playoffs once in the last 20-25 years........ his WIN SHARE IS LOW!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO KNEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Basketball is a team sport!!!!!!! JJ has played a total of 0 minutes the last 4 games and he was playing out of his mind D before he went down. Yup get rid of Melo and the haters will be begging for him after the fact.
Anji wrote:Win shares is another tool for cut and dry sports like Baseball where you can single out every play against a definite value........27 outs.If you look at Amares W/S it is about where .10 points lower. What does that tell me if I never seen this two players play???? Not a damn thing. Basketball is not baseball, to you can't firgue the value of a walk versus the value of getting a triple team.
Do you have any evidence for that? You're presenting it like it's a fact. Of course win shares and all stats are not perfect but the regression analyses how shown that it can predict wins.
Anji wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.
Monta Ellis plays for a team that has been to the playoffs once in the last 20-25 years........ his WIN SHARE IS LOW!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO KNEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You do not understand the win share statistic. The team's total wins are not put into the equation to calculate a player's individual win share stat. Likewise, specific players' win share stats tend to be pretty stable even when they switch from bad to good teams. Go look at Kevin Love's win share stats from when the T-Wolves were terrible.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.
The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%
Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%
eFG%
Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%
I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means 
Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?
I meant to say Amare vs kobe, Amares win share is .10 points lower. Doesn't tell me anything about those two players.
Bonn1997 wrote:Anji wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.
Monta Ellis plays for a team that has been to the playoffs once in the last 20-25 years........ his WIN SHARE IS LOW!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO KNEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You do not understand the win share statistic. The team's total wins are not put into the equation to calculate a player's individual win share stat. Likewise, specific players' win share stats tend to be pretty stable even when they switch from bad to good teams. Go look at Kevin Love's win share stats from when the T-Wolves were terrible.
So kobe's win shares are not inflated from playing with Shaq? Just curious. Trying to find a good definition and see how applicable it is. I love these actuarial stats - reminds me of the movie money ball.
Well if you don't like Win Shares, where are the stats that show STAT and Melo are great and it's the rest of the team that is the source of the losing? They both play starter minutes and are the stars of the team. Where are the stats that would indicate that they're doing everything they should be doing, but it's the role players that aren't doing enough? IMO many of our Role players aren't really playing great, but then neither are our stars who have the most responsibility.
We could really use Fields, Shump and JR to step up and knock down a shot!!! still we've been in games and really could have been in a better position to win games with our stars giving a greater effort.
mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.
The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%
Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%
eFG%
Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%
I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means
Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?
It's basically an estimate of how many wins the player contributes to the team. If you look at Carmelo's WS raw score for the year, it's estimating that he's added 2.6 wins to the team's total this year - with 1.4 coming from his offensive production (OWS) and 1.2 (DWS) from his defensive production. Then the WS/48 is an estimate of how many wins per 48 minutes (or one team game) the player adds. The idea is a little confusing but basically for every 48 minutes he's on the court, Melo has contributed .112 wins to the team. Hypothetically, a player who was perfect - a player who completely controlled every aspect of the game and single-handedly won every game - would contribute 1 win per 48 minutes.
Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...
Kobe OWS DWS WS WS/48
114.4 46.9 161.3 .186
Melo OWS DWS WS WS/48
37.9 21.4 59.2 .126
.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.
People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.
Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.
The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%
Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%
eFG%
Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%
I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means
Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?
It's basically an estimate of how many wins the player contributes to the team. If you look at Carmelo's WS raw score for the year, it's estimating that he's added 2.6 wins to the team's total this year - with 1.4 coming from his offensive production (OWS) and 1.2 (DWS) from his defensive production. Then the WS/48 is an estimate of how many wins per 48 minutes (or one team game) the player adds. The idea is a little confusing but basically for every 48 minutes he's on the court, Melo has contributed .112 wins to the team. Hypothetically, a player who was perfect - a player who completely controlled every aspect of the game and single-handedly won every game - would contribute 1 win per 48 minutes.
I am still confused ... sorry
How is that tied into the offensive production? based off what numbers?
Anji wrote:I meant to say Amare vs kobe, Amares win share is .10 points lower. Doesn't tell me anything about those two players.
No, what it tells you is Kobe is a better player than Amare.
The difference between them is .13 for their careers. That's meaningful but not gigantic. Like all stats, the win share statistic is probably much better at capturing a player's offensive than defensive contribution. And Amare for most of his career was a complete monster on offense. So his high win share stat should not be surprising.
