Knicks · KNICKS vs. Raptors 7:30 PM MSG: Let's Make it 6 In A Row vs. Toronto (page 16)

CrushAlot @ 3/23/2012 9:43 PM
Erniecat wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Its funny posters fled this board when D'antoni finally resigned after going on another long losing streak but now Woodson needs to be replaced by PJax after going 5-1.

Not sure if you are referring to my post about Jax and Sloan, but I was being sarcastic...

I think I had a one too many cups of coffee before the game. Time to switch beverages.
HugeKnick4 @ 3/23/2012 9:45 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
HugeKnick4 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Its funny posters fled this board when D'antoni finally resigned after going on another long losing streak but now Woodson needs to be replaced by PJax after going 5-1.

MDA had a stretch where he went 7-0. Larry Frank went 13-0 as the interim Nets coach after a firing. Look...I like Woodson's coaching style better than MDA's, but both he and the team had a bad night tonight. Some of the posts are tongue in check...you dig?

Yeah but he also had a stretch where he went 2-11 and then 0-8 and I am just talking about this year.

I was trying to make funnies.

Erniecat @ 3/23/2012 9:46 PM
Knicksfan wrote:
matt wrote:if the knicks come back and blow out the Pistons, I think we can all just mark this up as a "happens to every team" type game. Nothing went right. Only problem is that we've had to many of these

Losing this game is one thing. Being blown out while never getting in rhythm or caring to play enough defense is another.

Still, I agree that if we play strong tomorrow, we are ok.

But really, I'll take them seriously once they move over .500. They seem allergic to that number.

To me, we need to win at least the next two to get rid of the bad taste after this one. And not to get greedy, but we also need to beat Orlando at MSG on Wednesday.

I'm not saying we will win all three, but three straight home games, no back-to-backs. We need to establish home dominance.

NYKBocker @ 3/23/2012 9:50 PM
Had a bad feeling about this game. We were due for a let down.
holfresh @ 3/23/2012 9:50 PM
BD runs the offense better than Lin..That's a little bit of a concern..
Knicksfan @ 3/23/2012 9:52 PM
NYKBocker wrote:Had a bad feeling about this game. We were due for a let down.

Boy, what a stinky one.

HugeKnick4 @ 3/23/2012 9:54 PM
holfresh wrote:BD runs the offense better than Lin..That's a little bit of a concern..

Why..you saying they both suck? If not...Baron will see more minutes. It is all good.

holfresh @ 3/23/2012 10:08 PM
HugeKnick4 wrote:
holfresh wrote:BD runs the offense better than Lin..That's a little bit of a concern..

Why..you saying they both suck? If not...Baron will see more minutes. It is all good.

I just think Lin doesn't recognise when another player is hot...A few games now, Amare seems on the verge of something and Lin is looking for his own shot next time down...Melo made a tough turnaround on the baseline and he never saw the ball again ..It's has to get better..

JamesKPolk @ 3/23/2012 10:10 PM
That's right. Time to blame Lin. We've found the real source of the problem.
holfresh @ 3/23/2012 10:12 PM
JamesKPolk wrote:That's right. Time to blame Lin. We've found the real source of the problem.

It's not a blame thing..The team has to get better..Lin will be our starting PG for years to come..I want to see him get better sooner than later...No one is beyond criticism..

holfresh @ 3/23/2012 10:15 PM
How about this...Woody sucked, Chandler sucked, Melo sucked, JR sucked and a certain PG that cannot be named sucked as well...
MaTT4281 @ 3/23/2012 10:18 PM
NYKBocker wrote:Had a bad feeling about this game. We were due for a let down.

+1. I was hoping we were beyond these kind of games, apparently not. On the bright side, we have a shot tomorrow to get this bad taste out of our mouths instead of waiting around 2 days.

Hope this game embarrassed us enough to come in tomorrow ready to play.

RoyBatty @ 3/23/2012 11:31 PM
Every team has its bad days -- and we're not exactly among the elite teams yet. So losses like these were bound to, and will again, happen. The Detroit game is now another important benchmark; if we come out the same as we did today, then it's mental, in the sense that our team does not have the drive or ability to compete.
Vmart @ 3/24/2012 12:14 AM
This loss can be summed up in one word settling.
nyk4ever @ 3/24/2012 12:23 AM
i admit i didn't catch one minute of the game tonight. but looking at the score, all i can think of is one word. EFFORT. if you can't beat the raptors at this point in the season and i don't care how many games in a row you've won, then you are lacking something. this has nothing to do with coaching, it has everything to do with players taking accountability and giving max effort. whether you're playing the lakers or a team like the raptors, you gotta show up and be ready to play.

i'm not singling melo, or maybe i am. but you gotta bring it when you orchestrate a team to a destination of your choosing and you are supposedly one of the top players in the league. melo is playing like dog shit and i could care less what the excuse is. he's out the court and as long as he's out on the court then there are no excuses. i'm sick of this shit. play like a top player in this league, we gave up a bundle to get you, you're getting paid a ton of money, you got the evil coach fired. TIME TO FUCKING SHOW UP.

nyk4ever @ 3/24/2012 12:24 AM
interesting stat.. in the last 2 games melo has attempted 1 free-throw. yep, that's right. 1 free-throw folks. this is a guy that is averaging 8/gm for his career.
Knicksfan @ 3/24/2012 12:49 AM
nyk4ever wrote:interesting stat.. in the last 2 games melo has attempted 1 free-throw. yep, that's right. 1 free-throw folks. this is a guy that is averaging 8/gm for his career.

His offensive game right now is way down from his career numbers. Don't know exactly what is going on but he has been pretty off lately. Tonight he had 15 attempts, which is close to enough for him, and he could only make 12 points. Saw the zone and instead of attacking it, he, like the rest of the team, settled for jumpers.

yellowboy90 @ 3/24/2012 2:22 AM
On melo: it was not like he was forcing up bad shots. He was shooting open 12-17 footers plus a few open threes. He tried to attack and get the bigs involved but they had butterfingers. He is just missing shots which is horrible. It looks part injury and part mental. He is holding his release hoping the ball goes in.
NYKBocker @ 3/24/2012 7:51 AM
Knicksfan wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:interesting stat.. in the last 2 games melo has attempted 1 free-throw. yep, that's right. 1 free-throw folks. this is a guy that is averaging 8/gm for his career.

His offensive game right now is way down from his career numbers. Don't know exactly what is going on but he has been pretty off lately. Tonight he had 15 attempts, which is close to enough for him, and he could only make 12 points. Saw the zone and instead of attacking it, he, like the rest of the team, settled for jumpers.

Melo has no legs for the offensive end. He is still not in great shape and playing defense is taking a lot out of him. He can't finish as strong to the rim and as a result was getting his shots blocked ala Amare. He needs to lose some weight like Amare to get back some of his bounce.

One play in the Sixers game when he deflected the ball and Lin picked up the steal. Melo took off and Lin gave him a nice easy bounce pass. The first time I saw it I knew he still does not have full power. Instead of jamming it off 1 leg, Melo collected himself and dunked taking off on 2 legs. He did not have enough energy to take off for a dunk on one leg. Melo really needs to shed at least 15 lbs.

They have Melo listed at 230 lbs right now but in the draft combine they had him at 235 lbs. Tell me, does it look like he lost weight from then to now? He looks like he is at least 245 lbs.



He need to get to at least his college playing weight if he is going to play defense and rebound at his current pace.

ShellTopAdidas @ 3/24/2012 8:00 AM
nyk4ever wrote:i admit i didn't catch one minute of the game tonight. but looking at the score, all i can think of is one word. EFFORT. if you can't beat the raptors at this point in the season and i don't care how many games in a row you've won, then you are lacking something. this has nothing to do with coaching, it has everything to do with players taking accountability and giving max effort. whether you're playing the lakers or a team like the raptors, you gotta show up and be ready to play.

i'm not singling melo, or maybe i am. but you gotta bring it when you orchestrate a team to a destination of your choosing and you are supposedly one of the top players in the league. melo is playing like dog shit and i could care less what the excuse is. he's out the court and as long as he's out on the court then there are no excuses. i'm sick of this shit. play like a top player in this league, we gave up a bundle to get you, you're getting paid a ton of money, you got the evil coach fired. TIME TO FUCKING SHOW UP.


Thank you!!!!! Everybody keep making excuses for this dude, but I'm not trying to hear any of it. We broke the bank for you Melo, at your request........ DO SOMETHING ALREADY!!!
tkf @ 3/24/2012 10:28 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
holfresh wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:That's right. Time to blame Lin. We've found the real source of the problem.

It's not a blame thing..The team has to get better..Lin will be our starting PG for years to come..I want to see him get better sooner than later...No one is beyond criticism..


Good God, what games are you watching?

Lin takes the shot when that's what the defense gives him. If you watch Lin, he's force feeding Melo and STAT just enough to keep the coach off his back. But as long as Melo and STAT aren't producing ( i.e. are shooting poorly) Lin has finally realized he can tune out his coach if he wants. His responsibility is to his TEAM and WINNING, not to Mike Woodson desperately trying to keep his job by holding to his mandate to force feed Melo and STAT no matter what. Now STAT is shooting better than Melo right now, but he's not always working hard to get open. If he's not open, Lin is not going to get him the ball.

Don't confuse the agendas. Mike Woodson's approach is to first and foremost to keep the Knicks job. He needs to win to do so. But if he can sacrifice some wins to keep the giant egos of Melo and STAT happy, so as to get their rubber stamp to Dolan, clearly he's willing to do that. Hence his screaming at Lin and clearly jabbing at Lin on the sidelines to feed a 35-40 percent chucking Melo. Lin, however has to make split second decisions, and Woodson can't justify tearing into Lin to feed a guy who is starting a brick factory and is too poorly conditioned and lacks the desire to get open after the game. When they watch game film, if Woodson rips Lin because he passed to the open man, and if that open man wasn't Melo or STAT, what do you think the rest of his team mates will do and feel about Woodson? If he does it, the press will also turn on him. And they will label him as Melo and STAT's stooge, instead of a real NBA head coach.

The real PROBLEM is the Chandler, STAT and Melo front line can't play together and the Melo/Fields combination does not function at all. Chandler is essential to the Knicks winning by anchoring the defense. However he is not versatile offensively and they need some of his offense. Unlike Dallas or a team like the Heat, the Knicks don't have the offensive production to hide Chandler from having to play offense. They have the offensive potential, but not the actual production. Chandler needs space to work in the post. STAT does not move well without the ball and does not space well. He's also limited in that he can't adjust his game to play with other big men. Some bigs just can't. Some have "Elden Campbell Disease", they just clog up the works with another big on the floor.

Melo isn't shooting free throws because he's not getting contact. Why should other teams generate contact on Melo? He's chucking, he's missing, he's huffing and puffing because he's not used to giving effort on defense ( makes me want to throw up saying that) As new stars come into the league each year like Kyrie Irving, Melo becomes less relevant each year for the refs to protect. There are only so many free points and phantom calls and non calls to give out to each team and in the league each year by the refs via Stern, and Melo isn't helping his cause to get them. Melo needs to play power forward, he needs to get his back to the basket and get into position where his plus rebounding is an asset and his low post game can generate higher percentage shots and contact.

The Knicks will never bench Melo or STAT, they make too much and Dolan won't do it. The Knicks cannot live without Chandler's defense. Fields cannot function with Melo, as Field's, unlike Chandler and Lin, cannot adjust well to playing with a low IQ player. He doesn't have the long range shooting or finishing ability near the rim to compensate for Melo not spacing the floor enough for him. The Knicks need to move Lin and Chandler and Fields to the second unit, not because they deserve bench, it's just that the actual starting lineup has to become the bench to satisfy Dolan.

SF - JR Smith
PF - Melo
C - STAT
PG - Davis
SG - Shumpert

The offense can flow through STAT without Chandler in the paint. Melo can play back to the basket and get contact. Davis and Smith provide long range shooters to space the floor. Shumpert and Smith provide enough athleticism to use the press, the only way to compensate for Melo and STATs defense, even when they are trying, in this kind of lineup. This is the low IQ/high athleticism unit.

SF - Novak/Walker
PF - Jeffries
C - Chandler
PG - Lin
SG - Fields

Lin and Novak play very well together. Lin is the focal point of the offense with Novak as the safety valve that keeps other teams honest and spread out for Lin's attacks to the cup. Jeffries and Chandler compensate for Lin's and Novak's defensive problems. Fields is not constantly running into Melo. Walker lets Novak slide into the Stretch 4 and gives you better defense. Chandler gets room in the paint to operate, as Jeffries knows how to work with another big man in the game.

This is what's good for the team. You need to split apart the guys whose games don't mesh and hide certain guys defensive weaknesses. Davis is not a better point guard than Lin, he's a more experienced point guard often working with a unit that isn't completely incompatible. The trick is not to demand a player become what he's not, but put him where his strengths come out and his weaknesses can be hidden. However moving Lin to the second unit will create a nightmare press frenzy where Melo will be crushed as a player and a brand and Stern will blow a gasket and probably choke some low level NBA intern to death.

EXCELLENT post, but let me ask this question. Do you think that starting lineup of davis, shump, melo, amare and smith is good enough to win a substantial amount of games? You would almost have to play the second unit starters minutes.....

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