Knicks · Pacers Game Proves MDA Ball was a Bad Choice (page 1)

I'm an MDA supporter. I love his system, loved Linsanity, loved Nash to Amare-- loved Felton to Amare. Thought the way it ended here was unfortunate.

But there is NO WAY shooting threes was going to get us out of the East the way Miami and Indiana are beating each other up. 4 flagrants and this quote from Larry Legend:

“I can't believe my team went soft,” Bird told the Indianapolis Star after the game. “S-O-F-T. I'm disappointed. I never thought it would have happened.”

If we aren't playing to get to the finals, there no point. All personnel decisions must reflect the way teams compete in the Eastern Conference Playoffs.

Woodson-- I dunno if he's the guy. I think that he's better than MDA considering what the East looks like.

Neither of these teams are playing MDA ball. Sorry, I don't get your point.

Solace wrote:Neither of these teams are playing MDA ball. Sorry, I don't get your point.

I thinks thats his point. Tougher meaner basketball will be necessary to get through these teams. Sitting outside the arc and declining to get physical will not win in the East.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Solace wrote:Neither of these teams are playing MDA ball. Sorry, I don't get your point.

I thinks thats his point. Tougher meaner basketball will be necessary to get through these teams. Sitting outside the arc and declining to get physical will not win in the East.

right, too bad that's not MDA ball.

I think Solace's point still holds.

I think there's something to be said for Melo competing against 2 of his best friends in Wade and LeBron. I don't think he has it in him to play physical and mean against them, which means the rest of the team won't either.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Solace wrote:Neither of these teams are playing MDA ball. Sorry, I don't get your point.

I thinks thats his point. Tougher meaner basketball will be necessary to get through these teams. Sitting outside the arc and declining to get physical will not win in the East.

right, too bad that's not MDA ball.

I think Solace's point still holds.

Without arguing what constitutes "MDA Ball", I see this as a suggestion that the Knicks need to play a little bit tougher. I think the characterization of MDA ball is a distraction.

I am describing a willingness to bang on both ends of the court. Regardless of the coach, if your PF is taking a large percentage of his shots from 17+ ft, I don't consider that physical play on offense. I'll ignore Chandler, since nearly all of his shots occur at the rim and are the product of putbacks or feeds. Regardless, he's not "banging" in the post.

Looking at Stat's shot selection http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name...

Here, most of Amare's shots are at the rim -- which to me is a combination of him getting to the hoop and or being fed passes to get there (i.e. pick and roll). The absence of shots in the area of 3-9 feet and even 9 to 17 feet, but a resurgence of shots that are 17+ feet tells me he is not banging in the post. I declare that a lack of physicality on offense.

I don't know how to measure or give indications of physicality on defense. I'm not sure if there is a stat for "hard fouls" (not just flagrant fouls) but I saw some enforcement by Chandler last year, maybe Shump, but not anyone else.

Regardless of what "MDA Ball" is, the offensive scheme the Knicks run indicates less physical contact and more shooting.

Aside from the SSOL portion of the system which was about early offense, the entire point of MDA's system in the half court is to open up the paint for attack and high % shots at the basket. The 3 ball is part of it but it's not the MAIN focus of the attack. Case in point is that Nash and STAT both score the ball at 50% or better and did a lot of work in the wide open paint area since there was less traffic in the paint due to a spread floor.

The Pacers strength against the Heat was about West and mostly Hibbert. They've been having trouble getting those guys off against the Heat D in the last 2 games. My view is that the Pacers don't have a PG that is excellent at setting up his teammates. They are more scoring PG's than real floor leaders. The Heat have adjusted to this and the Pacers haven't found a way to counter the adjustment. It's true that the Pacers don't really have that Superstar that can raise his level of play but that doesn't mean they have no shot. I felt that Collison was actually hurting the Heat more than Hill and should've been used more by Vogel to keep attacking. Collison is the quickest guy on the court and I think he really breaks down the Heat D. He'd be better at helping them drive and kick or dump to Hibbert. That would open up the 3pt shooting a bit more as well.

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Solace wrote:Neither of these teams are playing MDA ball. Sorry, I don't get your point.

I thinks thats his point. Tougher meaner basketball will be necessary to get through these teams. Sitting outside the arc and declining to get physical will not win in the East.

right, too bad that's not MDA ball.

I think Solace's point still holds.

Without arguing what constitutes "MDA Ball", I see this as a suggestion that the Knicks need to play a little bit tougher. I think the characterization of MDA ball is a distraction.

I am describing a willingness to bang on both ends of the court. Regardless of the coach, if your PF is taking a large percentage of his shots from 17+ ft, I don't consider that physical play on offense. I'll ignore Chandler, since nearly all of his shots occur at the rim and are the product of putbacks or feeds. Regardless, he's not "banging" in the post.

Looking at Stat's shot selection http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name...

Here, most of Amare's shots are at the rim -- which to me is a combination of him getting to the hoop and or being fed passes to get there (i.e. pick and roll). The absence of shots in the area of 3-9 feet and even 9 to 17 feet, but a resurgence of shots that are 17+ feet tells me he is not banging in the post. I declare that a lack of physicality on offense.

I don't know how to measure or give indications of physicality on defense. I'm not sure if there is a stat for "hard fouls" (not just flagrant fouls) but I saw some enforcement by Chandler last year, maybe Shump, but not anyone else.

Regardless of what "MDA Ball" is, the offensive scheme the Knicks run indicates less physical contact and more shooting.

why are you focusing on 1 player? You should look at whole team. Compare it to other very good teams and what their rate is.

I don't think that's MDA ball either. I thought MDA is more pick and roll. Anyway, how many of our men are willing to attack the basket and get beaten in the paint?

The problem with MDA here was that he didnt discipline his players for jacking up threes but partially our teams couldnt get anything better. We haven't had enough guys who are good ball handlers that get easy baskets through pick and rolls, drive and kicks, and just werent quick enough or good enough finishers. Too many guys with the mentality to shoot threes.

The point really is that toughness has nothing to do with MDA ball. As Nix said, MDA ball had to do with getting high percentage shots. Did we shoot more threes, yes - that is not an indictment. Our defense was improved this year EVEN WITH MDA as coach. This nonsense that MDA never preached defense and his offensive strategy was just to chuck up threes is nonsense. Over his career, MDA's teams have consistently been above average in defensive efficiency. If you want to look at toughness, what you are really indicting is Amar'e Stoudemire. If so, label it as such. MDA has nothing to do with this.

Solace wrote:The point really is that toughness has nothing to do with MDA ball. As Nix said, MDA ball had to do with getting high percentage shots. Did we shoot more threes, yes - that is not an indictment. Our defense was improved this year EVEN WITH MDA as coach. This nonsense that MDA never preached defense and his offensive strategy was just to chuck up threes is nonsense. Over his career, MDA's teams have consistently been above average in defensive efficiency. If you want to look at toughness, what you are really indicting is Amar'e Stoudemire. If so, label it as such. MDA has nothing to do with this.

I've said it for years, but MDA's Center was STAT for much of his NBA career and then we had Lee, Jared, Turiaf etc. The only true defensive C was Tyson and we see what a huge diff it made. The same exact defensive system but MUCH better results. People diss MDA's defense, but what we saw this year was EXACTLY MDA's defense!!! Woody didn't come in and introduce a different system.

As for the Pacers they don't have a top player like Wade or Lebron etc. Guys that simply can't be guarded by one man or even 2 when they really focus. That gives them some real advantages, but the Pacers need to make some adjustments defensively and offensively. I think Vogel is missing what an advantage he has in Collison who is the quickest guy on the floor and I have yet to see the Heat guards be able to stop him from getting inside. They also need to figure out a better way to get Hibbert more deep touches.

nixluva wrote:

Solace wrote:The point really is that toughness has nothing to do with MDA ball. As Nix said, MDA ball had to do with getting high percentage shots. Did we shoot more threes, yes - that is not an indictment. Our defense was improved this year EVEN WITH MDA as coach. This nonsense that MDA never preached defense and his offensive strategy was just to chuck up threes is nonsense. Over his career, MDA's teams have consistently been above average in defensive efficiency. If you want to look at toughness, what you are really indicting is Amar'e Stoudemire. If so, label it as such. MDA has nothing to do with this.

I've said it for years, but MDA's Center was STAT for much of his NBA career and then we had Lee, Jared, Turiaf etc. The only true defensive C was Tyson and we see what a huge diff it made. The same exact defensive system but MUCH better results. People diss MDA's defense, but what we saw this year was EXACTLY MDA's defense!!! Woody didn't come in and introduce a different system.

As for the Pacers they don't have a top player like Wade or Lebron etc. Guys that simply can't be guarded by one man or even 2 when they really focus. That gives them some real advantages, but the Pacers need to make some adjustments defensively and offensively. I think Vogel is missing what an advantage he has in Collison who is the quickest guy on the floor and I have yet to see the Heat guards be able to stop him from getting inside. They also need to figure out a better way to get Hibbert more deep touches.

Where's the "Like" button?

WTF? Was MDA coaching the Pacers last night?

tj23 wrote:The problem with MDA here was that he didnt discipline his players for jacking up threes but partially our teams couldnt get anything better. We haven't had enough guys who are good ball handlers that get easy baskets through pick and rolls, drive and kicks, and just werent quick enough or good enough finishers. Too many guys with the mentality to shoot threes.

that's a fair statement IMHO.

Here's another one: the best PG MDA had for more than like 3 weeks was Felton, who was around for just more than half a season. That's not a good way to assess a coach who has a fairly heavy PG-driven system.

It's like having guys who have no clue about the Triangle and throwing Phil at it: a waste of time

I think some of you are conflating D'Antoni's coaching philosophy on paper with his skills as a coach. Maybe some day MDA can prove with the right players that his philosophy is good enough to win a championship. Who knows? But as a coach, as someone who decides the rotation, substitutions, makes adjustments (which he said was the other team's responsibility not his), motivating players, enforcing discipline, he flat out sucked. No two ways about it.

How is MDA ball predicated on high percent shots when his teams generally lead the league or close to the top in low percentage shots(3 pointers)???

GustavBahler wrote:I think some of you are conflating D'Antoni's coaching philosophy on paper with his skills as a coach. Maybe some day MDA can prove with the right players that his philosophy is good enough to win a championship. Who knows? But as a coach, as someone who decides the rotation, substitutions, makes adjustments (which he said was the other team's responsibility not his), motivating players, enforcing discipline, he flat out sucked. No two ways about it.

I actually don't know anyone who has said that MDA is a great in game coach in terms of making fast adjustments and such. What he is, is a system guy that gets a lot out of players you wouldn't think can contribute in most cases. He provides an environment where players feel confident rather than hesitant and usually that helps them to be more instinctive in how they play and more successful.

The problem is that too many of his detractors are judging him off of his stint here and that's not right either. Martin was right!!!

the best PG MDA had for more than like 3 weeks was Felton, who was around for just more than half a season. That's not a good way to assess a coach who has a fairly heavy PG-driven system.

It's like having guys who have no clue about the Triangle and throwing Phil at it: a waste of time

Duhon was pretty much the only guy willing to accept a 2 year deal and thus he was picked as the PG and it wasn't because MDA loved him as some think. There was no way MDA was gonna hand the keys to Steph, despite his superior talent over Duhon. MDA at least knew that Duhon would listen to him and run the offense as prescribed even tho he wasn't particularly talented.

Felton was not a perfect fit either, but he was able to reach a pretty good level of play. MDA had Felton for all of 54 games!!! Then he had Billups for 21 games and Lin for a very short period of time as well. Basically for about what amounts to one season worth of games he had 3 good PG's and the entire rest of the time he had garbage and basically he NEVER had a GOOD PG for a complete season or more in NY. Now let's be honest for a guy that EVERYONE knew was PG centric that isn't a fair shot.

If there is a team that's playing MDA ball is the San Antonio Spurs, check their shooting and spacing. GREAT OFFENCE

http://www.theknicksblog.com/2012/05/18/...

The Spurs have incorporated the theories of SSOL in to their system. They are the leagues best 3point shooting team by % and making the most.
They move the ball very well, with penetration, good spacing, and some post presences in Duncan, Diaw, Blaire, and Splitter.
But they run the PnR, very effectively and share the basketball, while utilizing every player on the floor. Only Ginobili, takes bad shots, as he has the green light to do so.
It is alright to have 1 player to not be afraid to shoot the ball and picking spots to shoot poor shots, because he uses it to open up the game for him as and others down, as the defenders will actually defend these attempts. They have changed from their "Twin Tower, old school theories" to the theories of "SSOL".

Give Poppavich, much credit, as he has adjusted, and reshaped the theories of his Spurs. It took much patience and time to develop his role players and for them to understand each of their roles, and establish an identity. They were swept last year, but the continued development of this system with the players, became crucial, as they they have developed to be good players on a great system. They run different defensive schemes and they truly are the "Money Ball" of the NBA, with elite coaching, 3 aged vets, many young role players, and have picked up some great acquisitions with Captain Jack and Diaw. I think Splitter is one of the most under rated players in the league, he is a solid double double, with good all round game and size, with the ability to start for many teams. He is playing a 8-9th man role, but has never once complained about is part of a reason why they are by far the deepest team in the league, with the most chemistry, ball movement, and utilizing all players on the court as weapons.

holfresh wrote:How is MDA ball predicated on high percent shot when his teams generally lead the league or close to the top in low percentage shots(3 pointers)???

MDA's teams Rank in Offensive Efficiency and FG% in PHX

2004-05   1st in Offensive Efficiency - 2nd in FG% - 1st in 3p%
2005-06   2nd in Offensive Efficiency - 1st in FG% - 1st in 3p%
2006-07   1st in Offensive Efficiency - 1st in FG% - 1st in 3p%
2007-08   2nd in Offensive Efficiency - 1st in FG% - 1st in 3p%

When a team is built more towards what he does it works out to be a very efficient offense.