Knicks · Lebron And Dwyane Are Just Getting In Sync, Amar'e and Carmelo Will Be Fine (page 2)
Still for all of his flaws, this team clearly played much better when he was being aggressive and playing with confidence. I think he still needs to be aggressive, tho not all the time and that's something PG's learn with time. How to pick their spots. Lin started to show a pattern of getting more aggressive late in games rather than starting off being aggressive so I think he already started to learn some things. Another key will be having legit 2nd and 3rd options behind Lin.
I also like Odom as an option. He's got the kind of well rounded game and experience this team could use. He's got a bit of a shaky mental disposition, but when he's tuned in he can be very effective.
nixluva wrote:Lin had JUST learned the system and JUST got his 1st experience playing at this elite level of BB. He of course wasn't fully developed. I mean the kid was coming off the waiver wires just weeks earlier. So I don't think anyone is not cognizant of this fact. I just think Lin is going to be better next year as he continues to mature and gain more experience. It took Duhon, Felton and Billups a month to get the hang of things in this system we used to have and I certainly could understand Lin having some growing pains given his lack of experience.I think Lin played pretty well under Woody. I mean he was getting about 18 points and 8-10 assists which is great and he was limiting his turnovers.Still for all of his flaws, this team clearly played much better when he was being aggressive and playing with confidence. I think he still needs to be aggressive, tho not all the time and that's something PG's learn with time. How to pick their spots. Lin started to show a pattern of getting more aggressive late in games rather than starting off being aggressive so I think he already started to learn some things. Another key will be having legit 2nd and 3rd options behind Lin.
I also like Odom as an option. He's got the kind of well rounded game and experience this team could use. He's got a bit of a shaky mental disposition, but when he's tuned in he can be very effective.
IrishKnickFan wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Elite is a guy that can that can play consistently great and get his team far in the playoffs. Now i agree melo when he is on is unstoppable but melo is not always like that. Now guys like lebron kobe nash and even dwight are elite guys because all of them have led their team to the finals even when they dotn have that much talent around them. Even though im a diehard knicks fan and dislike thgose vguys i mentioned i have to be fairRonRon wrote:misterearl wrote:AnubisADL - everyone knows Lebron and DWade can operate as solo acts. That is not news. However, this thesis offers that they need each other to make the team better... and to win.Winning is the bottom line.
Carmelo and Amar'e have their limitations, which have been well documented. Big deal. They may simply need to find the areas where they can compliment the other... to make the team better. It could be so simple as playing with their heads up. Selfless.
That is on both ends. If Carmelo has flashed a determination to play defense, perhaps Amar'e will get the message and join the fun. They don't need to be "in sync" because this ain't coordinated swimming. They need to be attentive and more alert. Move without the ball and be ready for the pass.
Go fast when the opportunity presents itself. Lead by example. Dare the other guys to keep up.
It isn't just about Melo and Amare, we have to include Tyson Chandler, and even Lin.
The thing is, Melo is not an elite, in the same bracket as Wade and Lebron.
Neither are players that move well off the ball, with poor defense, and do not have the ability to penetrate without the handle, and speed/quickness to do so.
He does not possess the handle, penetration, versatility, defense, and physical skills (athleticism, speed/ quickness) as an elite has.
He is a high volume scorer, that likes to produce STATS, which are very misleading because it kills team chemistry and doesn't allow the team to get in rhythm when he goes ISo.
Whenever he touches the ball, our opponents are ready to get in rebounding position, and get ready for a fast break if he misses, because chances of him taking a bad % shot is very high. It doesn't help that he cannot post up, because Amare and Tyson Chandler takes up the space, as they will be left open if they are trying to spread the floor.
Their guys will cheat and leave them for the shot. One of them could be used as the player that sets the PnR, but one *usually Amare* will be used to spread the floor in which he has trouble getting his shot off. It hurts significantly, when neither has a post game, and don't even fight for post position.Amare is no where near those guys, he is probably closer to the half stars like Josh Smith, with less overall skills, with only one skill (dunking).
He struggles playing at PF, because PF's match up with his speed/quickness, and athleticism, especially with Tyson Chandler's limitations on the offensive end.
He has played great for much of his career playing the "center" while he is quicker/faster and usually much more athletic than a Center.
The center usually has to give him the shot, if not, he can blow right by him and dunk.
While at PF, the opponents can keep up with him, while the Center is ready to help once he gets in the paint, because he only has one move, often forcing it in for a blocked shot or TO. Amare does try to move the ball, but with Melo going 1v1 so much, once he touches the ball, it means less shots for anyone on the team, including him.
He is been reduced from Alpha dog from the team, loss players that were all versatile, have good all round skills, following the game plans, and were about moving it to the open man.
Look at many games in which he has VERY little shot attempts because when he moves the ball, he won't get it back, leading to a Melo bad shot, or JR Smith bad shot, because they are the only ones that have the ability to create their own shots, with the lack of penetration and facilitating guards. His defense is a big weak link, while unable to defend his position, and requiring much help form Tyson Chandler, while when Chandler helps him or someone else, NO one, including Amare can cover for Tyson.During Linsanity, the team used Lin's ability to penetrate to initiate the offense, and players that cut, were left open when Lin broke the opponents defense down, were rewarded with the basketball. We played without Amare, and Melo, with 2nd unit players, which are much less skilled than these "stars". They played good team defense and were all on the same page, moving the ball to whoever was open. There were much more screens set, aside from the PnR, other picks were used, cutters, movement off the ball, and plays used that used all players on the floor as an option/threat. They might not hit the shot but they all got back and played good defense, while giving much effort.
Our rotation usually included a 8 man rotation of, with mainly players that were all either good on defense or offense, but played a much more balanced game.
Lin/JR/ Baron Davis/ Bibby
Iman/ Fields/ Baron
Fields/ Novak
Novak/ Jeffries
Tyson Chandler/ JeffriesIf melo is not elite, then i don't know what elite is. He may shoot in volumes, but he also make scoring look so easy, he's a good rebounder, and solid passer ( when ever he decides) more clutch then bron and wade put together, and plays good defense(when ever he decides)And in all reality, no one can guard him one on one not even your bruce bowen 2.0..when he's off, it's usually him rushing shots, it has nothing to do with who's guarding him.
A team doesn't get to the finals unless the team has talent.
AnubisADL wrote:Melo is just as good as Wade. Come on now.
On pure talent maybe, but Wade can dominate without cannibalizing his team.
I don't know what the exact difference is, it's like, when Melo starts to play ''Meloball'', everything else just stops... To be honnest, I really can't fathom why.
CashMoney wrote:ya and we have talent beisdes melo so that doesnt prove anything. Look I hope melo finally breaks through this year and becomes elite since i want the knicks to winIrishKnickFan wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Elite is a guy that can that can play consistently great and get his team far in the playoffs. Now i agree melo when he is on is unstoppable but melo is not always like that. Now guys like lebron kobe nash and even dwight are elite guys because all of them have led their team to the finals even when they dotn have that much talent around them. Even though im a diehard knicks fan and dislike thgose vguys i mentioned i have to be fairRonRon wrote:misterearl wrote:AnubisADL - everyone knows Lebron and DWade can operate as solo acts. That is not news. However, this thesis offers that they need each other to make the team better... and to win.Winning is the bottom line.
Carmelo and Amar'e have their limitations, which have been well documented. Big deal. They may simply need to find the areas where they can compliment the other... to make the team better. It could be so simple as playing with their heads up. Selfless.
That is on both ends. If Carmelo has flashed a determination to play defense, perhaps Amar'e will get the message and join the fun. They don't need to be "in sync" because this ain't coordinated swimming. They need to be attentive and more alert. Move without the ball and be ready for the pass.
Go fast when the opportunity presents itself. Lead by example. Dare the other guys to keep up.
It isn't just about Melo and Amare, we have to include Tyson Chandler, and even Lin.
The thing is, Melo is not an elite, in the same bracket as Wade and Lebron.
Neither are players that move well off the ball, with poor defense, and do not have the ability to penetrate without the handle, and speed/quickness to do so.
He does not possess the handle, penetration, versatility, defense, and physical skills (athleticism, speed/ quickness) as an elite has.
He is a high volume scorer, that likes to produce STATS, which are very misleading because it kills team chemistry and doesn't allow the team to get in rhythm when he goes ISo.
Whenever he touches the ball, our opponents are ready to get in rebounding position, and get ready for a fast break if he misses, because chances of him taking a bad % shot is very high. It doesn't help that he cannot post up, because Amare and Tyson Chandler takes up the space, as they will be left open if they are trying to spread the floor.
Their guys will cheat and leave them for the shot. One of them could be used as the player that sets the PnR, but one *usually Amare* will be used to spread the floor in which he has trouble getting his shot off. It hurts significantly, when neither has a post game, and don't even fight for post position.Amare is no where near those guys, he is probably closer to the half stars like Josh Smith, with less overall skills, with only one skill (dunking).
He struggles playing at PF, because PF's match up with his speed/quickness, and athleticism, especially with Tyson Chandler's limitations on the offensive end.
He has played great for much of his career playing the "center" while he is quicker/faster and usually much more athletic than a Center.
The center usually has to give him the shot, if not, he can blow right by him and dunk.
While at PF, the opponents can keep up with him, while the Center is ready to help once he gets in the paint, because he only has one move, often forcing it in for a blocked shot or TO. Amare does try to move the ball, but with Melo going 1v1 so much, once he touches the ball, it means less shots for anyone on the team, including him.
He is been reduced from Alpha dog from the team, loss players that were all versatile, have good all round skills, following the game plans, and were about moving it to the open man.
Look at many games in which he has VERY little shot attempts because when he moves the ball, he won't get it back, leading to a Melo bad shot, or JR Smith bad shot, because they are the only ones that have the ability to create their own shots, with the lack of penetration and facilitating guards. His defense is a big weak link, while unable to defend his position, and requiring much help form Tyson Chandler, while when Chandler helps him or someone else, NO one, including Amare can cover for Tyson.During Linsanity, the team used Lin's ability to penetrate to initiate the offense, and players that cut, were left open when Lin broke the opponents defense down, were rewarded with the basketball. We played without Amare, and Melo, with 2nd unit players, which are much less skilled than these "stars". They played good team defense and were all on the same page, moving the ball to whoever was open. There were much more screens set, aside from the PnR, other picks were used, cutters, movement off the ball, and plays used that used all players on the floor as an option/threat. They might not hit the shot but they all got back and played good defense, while giving much effort.
Our rotation usually included a 8 man rotation of, with mainly players that were all either good on defense or offense, but played a much more balanced game.
Lin/JR/ Baron Davis/ Bibby
Iman/ Fields/ Baron
Fields/ Novak
Novak/ Jeffries
Tyson Chandler/ JeffriesIf melo is not elite, then i don't know what elite is. He may shoot in volumes, but he also make scoring look so easy, he's a good rebounder, and solid passer ( when ever he decides) more clutch then bron and wade put together, and plays good defense(when ever he decides)And in all reality, no one can guard him one on one not even your bruce bowen 2.0..when he's off, it's usually him rushing shots, it has nothing to do with who's guarding him.
A team doesn't get to the finals unless the team has talent.
http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.as...
Bonn1997 wrote:The reason Amare and Melo will never be in sync is that they are both below average passers.
James and Wade have had two full seasons and (more important) two consecutive years deep in the playoffs blast furnace to forge their bond. By comparison, Carmelo and Amar'e have only had one round of playoffs (5 games) together. That is not an excuse, that is simply an acknowledgement of how long it has taken two stars with a rare skill set.
Repeating the flaws in Carmelo and Amar'es game is redundant and getting tiresome. They are who we thought they were.
It is now up to them to make the best of year two. Carmelo has played a grand total of 108 games (including playoffs) as a Knick. Amar'e has played 130, including playoffs.
By contrast, DWade and Lebron have played around 140 games together but 33 playoff games.
That playoffs experience is huge in their development as a tandem.
misterearl wrote:Reasonswell lebron and wade are better overall players so they are gonna have more success and lebron is probably the best player in the NBA even though he is a jerk.Bonn1997 wrote:The reason Amare and Melo will never be in sync is that they are both below average passers.James and Wade have had two full seasons and (more important) two consecutive years deep in the playoffs blast furnace to forge their bond. By comparison, Carmelo and Amar'e have only had one round of playoffs (5 games) together. That is not an excuse, that is simply an acknowledgement of how long it has taken two stars with a rare skill set.
Repeating the flaws in Carmelo and Amar'es game is redundant and getting tiresome. They are who we thought they were.
It is now up to them to make the best of year two. Carmelo has played a grand total of 108 games (including playoffs) as a Knick. Amar'e has played 130, including playoffs.
By contrast, DWade and Lebron have played around 140 games together but 33 playoff games.
That playoffs experience is huge in their development as a tandem.
IrishKnickFan wrote:Im a bigtime Knick Fan but we cant compare Amare/Melo to lebron/wade. Lebron and wade are jerks but they are much better overall players which makes a big difference
This fact should have ended this thread.
They can both play the point, and distribute, if need be.
They can both play the dominant scorer, if need be.
They are both able to play "all defensive team" quality D.
The can play selfish ball AND team ball, when necessary,
And yes, they are both treated like divas by the refs.
Enough said.
Paladin55 wrote:Ya i mean you cant compare melo/amare to lebron/wade because its like comparing a vovlo to a mercedes. I hate Lebron and wade but i would rather have those two than the two stars we have now tahts for damn sureIrishKnickFan wrote:Im a bigtime Knick Fan but we cant compare Amare/Melo to lebron/wade. Lebron and wade are jerks but they are much better overall players which makes a big differenceThis fact should have ended this thread.
They can both play the point, and distribute, if need be.They can both play the dominant scorer, if need be.
They are both able to play "all defensive team" quality D.
The can play selfish ball AND team ball, when necessary,
And yes, they are both treated like divas by the refs.
Enough said.
IrishKnickFan wrote:Ya i mean you cant compare melo/amare to lebron/wade because its like comparing a vovlo to a mercedes. I hate Lebron and wade but i would rather have those two than the two stars we have now tahts for damn sure
IKF - it is not whether you would prefer to have DWade and Lebron. The fact remains that both have admitted, after almost 200 games, they are just now starting to gel.
How many games should it take our imperfect talent to mesh?
Nalod wrote:They work hard without the ball.
Your first three words would be sufficient to distinguish their big 2 from ours.
Anji wrote:............... we'll see next season pastor earl.
Anji - You must be thinking of someone else.
Speaking of pastors:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/serpent-handling-pastor-profiled-earlier-in-washington-post-dies-from-rattlesnake-bite/2012/05/29/gJQAJef5zU_story.html?tid=pm_pop
C'mon Son!
nixluva wrote:We really didn't see a lot of STAT, Melo & Lin when they were all healthy. It could be really good, but we don't know, cuz it was all disconnected from the start.
nixluva - you are indeed Jedi. You understand that any basketball equation is composed of moving parts that can shift by addition or subtraction. If Amar'e and Carmelo have problems passin he ball what should we do... wail at he moon, or compliment them with guys who can move the rock at warp speed in their sleep?
The Knicks problem started in the backcourt with the indecision of Toney Douglas and finished with the futile wait for the great pumpkin.. I mean... Baron Davis. Jeremy Lin injected the team with a shot of adrenaline that was better than the best high in college. Once his legs healed, Iman Shumpert flashed more athletic ability and intensity than any Knicks yoot in recent memory.
Guards. The point being, it all starts in the backcourt and the backcourt will be fixed. Lin is a great place to start but there is more work to be done to develop two backcourt shift lines that can be trusted under pressure. Shump may not be ready until next May. The backcourt is wide open. We desperately need adroit ball handlers.
Forwards? Yes, Jared Jeffries is lovable but he is only an average (at best) passer. Josh Harrellson is s work in progress. Novak moves the crowd, but he is one-dimensional and would be wise to move better without the ball and work on his handle. Add a talented point forward like Lamar Odom and suddenly the floor becomes a playground of creativity and serendipity.
Let the auditions begin!
misterearl wrote:"comparing a vovlo to a mercedes"Lebron and Wade went to the finals last year so even though they didnt gel they still did pretty damn good. In two years our two stars have won a total of 1 playoff game. As big of fan as i am i cant give them the benefit of the doubt until i see them do it on the courtIrishKnickFan wrote:Ya i mean you cant compare melo/amare to lebron/wade because its like comparing a vovlo to a mercedes. I hate Lebron and wade but i would rather have those two than the two stars we have now tahts for damn sureIKF - it is not whether you would prefer to have DWade and Lebron. The fact remains that both have admitted, after almost 200 games, they are just now starting to gel.
How many games should it take our imperfect talent to mesh?
misterearl wrote:Excellent Pointnixluva wrote:We really didn't see a lot of STAT, Melo & Lin when they were all healthy. It could be really good, but we don't know, cuz it was all disconnected from the start.nixluva - you are indeed Jedi. You understand that any basketball equation is composed of moving parts that can shift by addition or subtraction. If Amar'e and Carmelo have problems passin he ball what should we do... wail at he moon, or compliment them with guys who can move the rock at warp speed in their sleep?
The Knicks problem started in the backcourt with the indecision of Toney Douglas and finished with the futile wait for the great pumpkin.. I mean... Baron Davis. Jeremy Lin injected the team with a shot of adrenaline that was better than the best high in college. Once his legs healed, Iman Shumpert flashed more athletic ability and intensity than any Knicks yoot in recent memory.
Guards. The point being, it all starts in the backcourt and the backcourt will be fixed. Lin is a great place to start but there is more work to be done to develop two backcourt shift lines that can be trusted under pressure. Shump may not be ready until next May. The backcourt is wide open. We desperately need adroit ball handlers.
Forwards? Yes, Jared Jeffries is lovable but he is only an average (at best) passer. Josh Harrellson is s work in progress. Novak moves the crowd, but he is one-dimensional and would be wise to move better without the ball and work on his handle. Add a talented point forward like Lamar Odom and suddenly the floor becomes a playground of creativity and serendipity.
Let the auditions begin!
This is looking like truth to me misterearl.
Most of ball handling is physical, being able to hold onto the ball, dribble it, hand-eye coordination, all that.
But a lot of it, especially in the NBA, is knowing where your teammates will be, knowing what play is being run, watching a guy slip into a pick and roll and anticipating the play in progress, getting into good position. When that's happening good passes can happen. Of course, we don't have Lebron throwing one-touch, one-hand, cross court strikes, but no one else does either.
The Knicks had a tumultuous season, ups, downs, injuries, emergences, hopes, fears, inspirations, let-downs. It was very hard for the team and the organization to find traction. This was, of course, partly their own doing through previous trades and roster moves. But someone deserves some credit, because we want to KEEP 2 guys more than anyone else that were picked up off WAIVERS. Guys so used to sitting on the bench even they looked amazed on television to hit the big shots (Lin, Novak). Who knows how the team as a whole felt about this emergence. Add to the mix JR Smith, big persona, crazy game, questionable character, spotty performance. The whole game plan needed to be changed, or at least greatly adjusted. And then..
D'antoni quits and takes some others with him. Most of us are probably happy about this, but that's a lot of shaking up to do. We get an interim coach, an interim GM, and a whole of press/accusations/expectations. Now more changes to the rotations, more changes to practice, shifting egos on the team, new guys sharing the spot light and walking into practice having just had a conversation with their agent about the millions they will be making next year AND the year after that.
I say all this to add that a lot of the ability to make good decisions on the court come with preparation, reading the defense, and trusting your teammates. And that is going to come with time.
GIVE THIS CLUB TIME.