Knicks · Are we improved? (page 2)

smackeddog wrote:I'm really not sure. I liked each move Grunwald made as he made them (except the Kidd one, but grew to understand it ), but now it looks like Lin might not be back and suddenly a few of them don't make sense and we don't look so good. Like Kidd was a waste of money- there's no one to mentor! If we didn't sign him we could have kept the MMLE and used it on Camby, which would have saved us Jorts, Jerome Jordan, TD, cash and 2 second rounders etc, which in turn would have spared us having to send Jared Jeffries to the Blazers.

We could then have signed CJ Watson as Felton's backup for the minimum (he wanted to be in NY and signed with brooklyn for the minimum). Then we'd at least be able to trade for someone resembling a SG. Whats more, if Lin had been honest and said what the Rockets offer was, we could have signed and traded him for Courtney Lee + a young PF.

I don't know, I like the players we have but is:

PG- Felton, Kidd (39, drunk), Prigioni
SG- JR Smith, Shump (injured), White
SF Melo, Copeland
PF Amar'e, Novak, Kurt (42)
C- Tyson, Camby (38)

Really better than:

PG- Lin, BD, Bibby
SG- Fields, JR Smith, TD
SF- Melo, Walker
PF- Amar'e, Novak, Jorts
C- Tyson, JJ, JJ

IMHO yes. Felton is not that much of a downgrade from Lin. Kidd at 40 is better than Baron. JR can hold the fort until Shump gets back and Camby is an upgrade from JJ. The age of our reserves is a concern but we're in win now mode.

smackeddog wrote:I'm really not sure. I liked each move Grunwald made as he made them (except the Kidd one, but grew to understand it ), but now it looks like Lin might not be back and suddenly a few of them don't make sense and we don't look so good. Like Kidd was a waste of money- there's no one to mentor! If we didn't sign him we could have kept the MMLE and used it on Camby, which would have saved us Jorts, Jerome Jordan, TD, cash and 2 second rounders etc, which in turn would have spared us having to send Jared Jeffries to the Blazers.

We could then have signed CJ Watson as Felton's backup for the minimum (he wanted to be in NY and signed with brooklyn for the minimum). Then we'd at least be able to trade for someone resembling a SG. Whats more, if Lin had been honest and said what the Rockets offer was, we could have signed and traded him for Courtney Lee + a young PF.

I don't know, I like the players we have but is:

PG- Felton, Kidd (39, drunk), Prigioni
SG- JR Smith, Shump (injured), White
SF Melo, Copeland
PF Amar'e, Novak, Kurt (42)
C- Tyson, Camby (38)

Really better than:

PG- Lin, BD, Bibby
SG- Fields, JR Smith, TD
SF- Melo, Walker
PF- Amar'e, Novak, Jorts
C- Tyson, JJ, JJ

+1

Knicks are better, definitely. Just sucks that we'd probably be much better with also keeping Lin

I think we got older and slower. We also are about to lose the guy that turned our team around and got us back in the playoff hunt. Don't see how we're better.

matt wrote:Knicks are better, definitely. Just sucks that we'd probably be much better with also keeping Lin

+1

Heck I am even pissed that Jefferies is out even thought he's not that good.

Are we improved? Don't bet your life on it.

When you replace scrubs on your bench with decent veterans you get better. But not that much better.

This is the same mediocre team which struggled its way to the 7th seed with Carmelo and Amare still not working well together and now has lost its best PG in favor of a fat, mediocre one. But now, almost miraculously, people expect Amare and Carmelo to become some great tandem after having no chemistry together in nearly 2 years. How about this team show it can do anything first before we make them out to be some world beater?

They played most of last year with no PG. So they're improved - not nearly as much as they could have easily been with a few smarter decisions though.

So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

s3231 wrote:We can be improved but the fact that it is a question....after the deals we just made to get considerably older, means that this off-season is not going well (I'm assuming Lin is gone in this scenario).

If you mortgage your future, you need to make the roster considerably better and the way I see it, we just got worse at two key positions (PG and SG) while also getting better in the front-court (by adding Camby, re-signing Novak, etc.).

We lost depth at SG by losing Landry (might not have been a good starter but him and JR were ok LY whereas this year, it's basically just JR).

At PG, I don't feel that Kidd/Felton is an upgrade over Lin/Baron.

This off-season has been a failure. If we re-sign Lin....it becomes solid (not great, but definitely good).

We've already mortgaged our future for the past few years... didn't you see the draft picks? Oh yeah, this past year we had none too... and look where it took us. We couldn't even pass the first round. However, injuries and dramas does have factor in this..

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

Name the team(s) that wouldn't struggle against a healthy miami?

The whole point of adding Kidd and Felton, Camby and Thomas is to make the team much more experienced and deep. Also to really sure up the one strength of the team which is defense. This is no longer a really potent and efficient uptempo team. Now the team is going to have to play to the pace of its star and older vet players. Not as slow as the Larry Brown Pistons but along those lines. Much more deliberate offense and tough D. In that sense this team is much improved over last years team and the moves made sense. If you add Kidd, Felton, Camby and KT very few teams are gonna be punking the Knicks anytime soon. Once Shump is back that will add even more toughness to the defense.

You have to imagine that the team will no longer be half uptempo and half slow it down ISO. Now the team is much more solidly in the half court and ISO mode. With the way they should be able to defend this team should be an upper echelon team. It's not what I expected the team would be but it is what it is. We have to face reality. We have our Star player who wants to go ISO and play in the Half Court and a head coach who also wants to coach that kind of game. No mystery here. But the team is better!!!

we need youth to go with our squad.
We have too many aged VETS, need a balance between experience and youth, we just don't have that, and won't match up well with the NBA league with that style.
How many over the hill, lack of speed/quickness, lack of athleticism/length, "vets" do we actually need?
I don't put Camby in this category but I do put Kidd/Kurt Thomas/Pablo in it.

The average, not athletic, or quick/fast enough, would be Novak, White, Felton....

Flight doesn't look as athletic as his videos once suggested.
Sonny Weems would be the better player.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

Name the team(s) that wouldn't struggle against a healthy miami?

I was being generous when I merely said "struggle." I could have easily said something more like "embarrass the entire state for a second consecutive season"

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

Name the team(s) that wouldn't struggle against a healthy miami?

I was being generous when I merely said "struggle." I could have easily said something more like "embarrass the entire state for a second consecutive season"

half our team was out and we won a game - perhaps we can win 2 or 3 next year with a full team and ANY PG.

That is as good as any team will/can do.

THEY ARE A LOT BETTER but you can never say that since it would render you constant negativism useless - just like it was during the 18-6 stretch where you hid in witness protection.

ChuckBuck wrote:

s3231 wrote:We can be improved but the fact that it is a question....after the deals we just made to get considerably older, means that this off-season is not going well (I'm assuming Lin is gone in this scenario).

If you mortgage your future, you need to make the roster considerably better and the way I see it, we just got worse at two key positions (PG and SG) while also getting better in the front-court (by adding Camby, re-signing Novak, etc.).

We lost depth at SG by losing Landry (might not have been a good starter but him and JR were ok LY whereas this year, it's basically just JR).

At PG, I don't feel that Kidd/Felton is an upgrade over Lin/Baron.

This off-season has been a failure. If we re-sign Lin....it becomes solid (not great, but definitely good).

You're joking about PG right? BD could barely walk up the court. Lin avg'ed 8 TOs a game for awhile while getting toasted repeatedly by marginal PGs on defense. Felton+Kidd=Less turnovers, more playoff experience, better defense, better shooting. If "Youtube Prigioni" gives us anything, it's net positive over Lin/BD/Bibby/TD.

Not kidding, Lin was a top PG last year in terms of offensive efficiency (even with the TOs) and defensively, Felton isn't even better than him. BD was pretty bad but I think Lin offsets that difference because of how much better he is over Kidd/Felton.

I could rattle off a bunch of stats to prove my case but the below article actually does a pretty decent job:

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_...

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

Name the team(s) that wouldn't struggle against a healthy miami?

I was being generous when I merely said "struggle." I could have easily said something more like "embarrass the entire state for a second consecutive season"

half our team was out and we won a game - perhaps we can win 2 or 3 next year with a full team and ANY PG.

That is as good as any team will/can do.

THEY ARE A LOT BETTER but you can never say that since it would render you constant negativism useless - just like it was during the 18-6 stretch where you hid in witness protection.

LOL - you got me confused with someone else. I was here and giving Melo lots of credit. Have you forgotten my frequently saying that I thought he looked like a great PF? I'm only negative about the bad decision-makers (either in game or as executives) like Mr. 470, Amare, JR, and Dolan.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:So Basically we are a team of Melo and Stat again - and Stat is a BIG IF with that back. He goes down and we are SOL. We have a great supporting cast but we lose that 3rd needed scorer against Miami (in Lin, if he goes).
We will have a MUCH BETTER regular season but I don't see us getting past Miami. Well Mr. Dolan, how much is it worth to you to get past them. You have one chance and need to decide by Tuesday...

For most of last year, Toney Douglas, Baron Davis, and Mike Bibby were our PGs. So by getting Felton and Kidd, we've gone from being atrocious to adequate at the PG position, which is a major improvement. I think you're right that this team would struggle against a healthy Miami team though.

Name the team(s) that wouldn't struggle against a healthy miami?

I was being generous when I merely said "struggle." I could have easily said something more like "embarrass the entire state for a second consecutive season"

half our team was out and we won a game - perhaps we can win 2 or 3 next year with a full team and ANY PG.

That is as good as any team will/can do.

THEY ARE A LOT BETTER but you can never say that since it would render you constant negativism useless - just like it was during the 18-6 stretch where you hid in witness protection.

LOL - you got me confused with someone else. I was here and giving Melo lots of credit. Have you forgotten my frequently saying that I thought he looked like a great PF? I'm only negative about the bad decision-makers (either in game or as executives) like Mr. 470, Amare, JR, and Dolan.

You were in hiding but did come out every once in a while to sell your agenda :-)

What is Tyson? Mr what? Have the knicks been SOOOOO MUCH better with him now that we no longer have an amnesty and he was a no show in the playoffs?

AnubisADL wrote:Knicks will come out hot and destroy the atlantic division.

Bully ball in effect.

We just need K Martin to sign now.

I agree these Butt hurt boys can either cheer on the Knicks or take a walk to Brooklyn or Houston. Knicks will take the Atlantic with or without Lin