Knicks · Carmelo Anthony's flaws hidden among greatness and depth of Team USA - Adrian Wojnarowski (page 17)

Bonn1997 wrote:In this context, I'm glad you picked the first one!

Either way I disagree with you in who carried the Knicks to the playoffs. Tyson played great for us down the stretch, was efficient, and a true leader on defense. That said Carmelo single handedly carried the team in April to garner April Player of the Month and his numbers speak for themselves.

Carmelo Anthony in April (12 games):

-30 pts/game
-50% FG
-46% 3PT%
-81% FT%
-7 Reb/game
-4 Ast/game
-1 Stl/game
-2 40+ Pts
-4 Double Doubles
-1 Triple Double

No Melo, and the Bucks and Sixers probably leapfrog us and we're on the outside looking in.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:In this context, I'm glad you picked the first one!

Either way I disagree with you in who carried the Knicks to the playoffs. Tyson played great for us down the stretch, was efficient, and a true leader on defense. That said Carmelo single handedly carried the team in April to garner April Player of the Month and his numbers speak for themselves.

Carmelo Anthony in April (12 games):

-30 pts/game
-50% FG
-46% 3PT%
-81% FT%
-7 Reb/game
-4 Ast/game
-1 Stl/game
-2 40+ Pts
-4 Double Doubles
-1 Triple Double

No Melo, and the Bucks and Sixers probably leapfrog us and we're on the outside looking in.

That's some seriously strong straw!

Jordan was the best player on the Bulls or the planet for that matter.

Melo is the best player on the Knicks. To say Tyson Chandler carried the Knicks to the playoffs is like saying Horace Grant or Rodman got the Bulls their rings.
Tyson is a great complementary player. Just like he was on the Mavs. He makes a big difference defensively. He doesn't carry teams.

It's an analogy, not a straw man. A straw man would require me to post something like:

I wouldn't say any one person did but if I had to pick one player it would definitely be Tyson.

Then say that that's Bonn's position [when he didn't actually post that] and then follow up with my analogy. You see, I would be setting up a straw man that's got nothing to do with anything Bonn stated, and then argue against it.

But you see, Bonn actually did post that.

Philosophy and Logic 101 fellas. Come on.

Tomorrow, we'll cover the "Every True Scotsman" fallacy.

Injury will happen to every team and Knicks got theirs too.

With the exception of Lin we got healthy down the stretch.

There was no reason why the making the playoffs should have been that hard to begin with.

Fault? Blame? Lots to go around. Chemistry issues with roster and MDA's way was the main culprit.

If Melo was not on board for the good of the team then he gets a share of it also.

Woodson did not fight the friction and made it work. The team came together and the team played to Melo's strength.

MDA might hot have seen that as a high ceiling long term methoed and knew he would not be offered another contract if he could not turn it around.

Who carried who?

Lets just say you can't win without good play from your role players. Ever.

When your on the olympic team a guy like Melo can go off.

Doesn't Marbles hold the US mens olympic scoring record for a single game?

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:In this context, I'm glad you picked the first one!

Either way I disagree with you in who carried the Knicks to the playoffs. Tyson played great for us down the stretch, was efficient, and a true leader on defense. That said Carmelo single handedly carried the team in April to garner April Player of the Month and his numbers speak for themselves.

Carmelo Anthony in April (12 games):

-30 pts/game
-50% FG
-46% 3PT%
-81% FT%
-7 Reb/game
-4 Ast/game
-1 Stl/game
-2 40+ Pts
-4 Double Doubles
-1 Triple Double

No Melo, and the Bucks and Sixers probably leapfrog us and we're on the outside looking in.

Nalod wrote:MDA had his scheme and the team was never constructed with the proper roster to run it effectively post Melo.

Melo is a finisher and we lacked the facilitators to instigate the offense. Olympic ball with the all star roster is a different animal altogether.

Linsanity was a last gasp desperate attempt for MDA to demonstrate his scheme and show the world it could work. He succeeded without Melo.

When a coach is on his last year of contract and the style goes against the grain of the roster then its time for the coach to go. I don't think MDA was all that intense about wanting Melo to be traded but its logical for him to ask given the fact Melo as the focal point of the offense won't work in his scheme. Since Knicks was not interested in trading Melo (makes sense) then MDA knew it was time. I don't think he "quit" on them as much as got out of the way. Woodson did better so it was the right move. Season salvaged.

It would be silly if MDA left and Melo was traded for some odd reason.

As far as Melo being a franchise type Lebron/Kobe/Jordan player I think that is a stretch.

We can make excuses that Melo in Denver or NY has not had a strong enough team around him can be said of about any player on any team. One can also say any all star player will have its flaws hidden on an allstar USA olympic team! Even Lebron! Why? Lebron is not as good a closer as Kobe so I would expect Kobe to take the last shot. And if your team never plays in a game that goes down to the wire, then the flaw won't be exposed.
Lebron did not need in the finals to be a last shot hero. They took care of business earlier. It hid his flaw. Or exposed his strengh?

Melo is an all star player with some great skills. NY media will magnify his flaws and strengths. His success and failures too!

I don't think Melo being a franchise player is much of stretch. I think where the issues lay is that we tend to look at guys like Kobe/Jordan/Lebron and try to make comparisons. Of course, Melo is not Kobe/Lebron/Jordan...who is. Jordan is the greatest to ever play, Lebron is not that far off and Lebron is the best in the game right now and will be considered an all time great when it's all said and done.

Melo is a fantastic player in his own right and I don't think pointing to the overall stregth of teams he played on his an excuse. On all the teams in Denver they were never heavy favorites to win anything. The only year when they were considered a serious contender the team went to the WCF. We've been elimited two years in a row becuase the team was decimaited by injuries both years.

People will point to what Lebron did in Cleveland. Amazing but I don't think there is another player in the league who could have done that. It what make Lebron, Lebron. A SF who can handle the ball like a PG and can rebound like a PF.

Melo, as the man, the franchise player, is going to get the lion's share of the blame when things don't go right. It's to be expected. The Knicks have put together a sold team this year and I'm excited to see what we can do.

This is a make or break year for Melo. This is going to be his first full year with the Kicks with a full tranining camp and a normal NBA schedule. Melo is going to have a huge year for us.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

i dont even remember that series but I would be surprised if Lewis and Turkyglue could do what they did without Dwight.

martin wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

i dont even remember that series but I would be surprised if Lewis and Turkyglue could do what they did without Dwight.

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

Don't let hate blind you.

Its not even the stats that tell the story. Look at the roster and the fact they went to the finals.

Im not sure they sniff the playoffs let alone go the finals.

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

I agree, Dwight had a solid playoff run but kinda stunk up the joint in the NBA Finals:

NBA Finals
15.4 Pts/Gm
FG% 48.8
FT% 603
15.2 Reb/Gm
2.2 Ast/Gm
4.0 Blk/Gm
1.6 Stls/Gm
4.0 TOs/Gm

The 1 game the Magic won in the NBA Finals, he eclipses the 20 pt margin. The other 4 games he was a non factor on offense. On top of that, he averaged 4 turnovers a game which pretty much says everything.

ChuckBuck wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

I agree, Dwight had a solid playoff run but kinda stunk up the joint in the NBA Finals:

NBA Finals
15.4 Pts/Gm
FG% 48.8
FT% 603
15.2 Reb/Gm
2.2 Ast/Gm
4.0 Blk/Gm
1.6 Stls/Gm
4.0 TOs/Gm

The 1 game the Magic won in the NBA Finals, he eclipses the 20 pt margin. The other 4 games he was a non factor on offense. On top of that, he averaged 4 turnovers a game which pretty much says everything.

TO's are a tricky stat to read. Could mean that Dwight sucks and had butterfingers. Could mean his teammates were so god awful the defense could concentrate on Dwight alone.

martin wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

I agree, Dwight had a solid playoff run but kinda stunk up the joint in the NBA Finals:

NBA Finals
15.4 Pts/Gm
FG% 48.8
FT% 603
15.2 Reb/Gm
2.2 Ast/Gm
4.0 Blk/Gm
1.6 Stls/Gm
4.0 TOs/Gm

The 1 game the Magic won in the NBA Finals, he eclipses the 20 pt margin. The other 4 games he was a non factor on offense. On top of that, he averaged 4 turnovers a game which pretty much says everything.

TO's are a tricky stat to read. Could mean that Dwight sucks and had butterfingers. Could mean his teammates were so god awful the defense could concentrate on Dwight alone.

I believe that this argument can be used for FG% as well.

ChuckBuck wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

I agree, Dwight had a solid playoff run but kinda stunk up the joint in the NBA Finals:

NBA Finals
15.4 Pts/Gm
FG% 48.8
FT% 603
15.2 Reb/Gm
2.2 Ast/Gm
4.0 Blk/Gm
1.6 Stls/Gm
4.0 TOs/Gm

The 1 game the Magic won in the NBA Finals, he eclipses the 20 pt margin. The other 4 games he was a non factor on offense. On top of that, he averaged 4 turnovers a game which pretty much says everything.

martin wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo is a habitual all star and on the olympic team. ITs not like he is denied any accolades.

This is not a player who can take an average team on his back to the finals.

Who can? These days, only a healthy Dwight and Lebron.

Historyically? THe Legends did. Most of them were "batman" and had a "robin" to help them.

I think the debate is nicely fuled by the media and perpetuated by "hate" and on the other side "homer love".

Fixed.

Take to the finals Dwight did.

I never said "winning the finals". Lebron took a very avg. Cavs team. And lost.

Lewis and Turkoglu had more to do with that than Dwight.

I agree, Dwight had a solid playoff run but kinda stunk up the joint in the NBA Finals:

NBA Finals
15.4 Pts/Gm
FG% 48.8
FT% 603
15.2 Reb/Gm
2.2 Ast/Gm
4.0 Blk/Gm
1.6 Stls/Gm
4.0 TOs/Gm

The 1 game the Magic won in the NBA Finals, he eclipses the 20 pt margin. The other 4 games he was a non factor on offense. On top of that, he averaged 4 turnovers a game which pretty much says everything.

TO's are a tricky stat to read. Could mean that Dwight sucks and had butterfingers. Could mean his teammates were so god awful the defense could concentrate on Dwight alone.

I have to say it is the former, Dwight was that bad in the finals that year. In the Game 2 and Game 4 losses, he had 7 Turnovers each game.