NBA · Summary of Jeremy "Gift" Lin's Pre-Season.... (page 7)

Well Lin got a gift in Harden. Now he is the number 1 option to take pressure off Lin. Is Harden that much better than Martin? I have real questions about Harden as a focal point of an offense. Plus he struggled in the playoffs and was not able to get off the bench in the Olympics. Not a big deal but it throws up red flags. Maybe they can put it together. 2 1st, a 2nd, Lamb, and Martin he better be worth it.

yellowboy90 wrote:Well Lin got a gift in Harden. Now he is the number 1 option to take pressure off Lin. Is Harden that much better than Martin? I have real questions about Harden as a focal point of an offense. Plus he struggled in the playoffs and was not able to get off the bench in the Olympics. Not a big deal but it throws up red flags. Maybe they can put it together. 2 1st, a 2nd, Lamb, and Martin he better be worth it.

Harden struggled primarily during the finals rather than the entire playoffs. Harden is already better than Martin. Being alarmed about someone not getting a ton of playtime during the Olympics is laughable.

Lin pre-season average: 24.8 MPG, 6.2 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 6.0 APG, 2.2 SPG, 3.0 TO, .295 FG%, .300 3P%, .727 FT%

By any standard, an awful pre-season. Now, the reg. season has begun. His stats for the first game of the regular season are below:

Game One @ Det.: 35.5 minutes, 12 Points, 4 Rebounds, 8 Assists, 4 Steals, 4 TO, .417 FG%, .000 3P%, .100 FT%

An average game. Good assist and steal numbers. Nothing else stands out and some of the stats are just plain terrible.

Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

Lin looked under control last night and happy to defer to Harden, who was outstanding. I think Lin had a good game. No reason to wish for bad things out of him, but I think Felton will put up similar or better numbers.

I don't think Lin makes the Knicks roster better today, but it was stupid to let him go for nothing. Plain and simple.

I'm excited about Fleton though. Good defender, chip on his shoulder and a leader. He also had a great pre season. One of the only bright spots. We shall see.

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

41.7% FG is pretty crappy.
I dunno if 0-2 from 3 could be really considered "terrible".

2:1 assist to turnover ratio isn't exactly terrible. Playmaker types who have had lower than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio over 2011 season:

Lebron
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kobe
Arenas
Wade

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

41.7% FG is pretty crappy.
I dunno if 0-2 from 3 could be really considered "terrible".

2:1 assist to turnover ratio isn't exactly terrible. Playmaker types who have had lower than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio over 2011 season:

Lebron
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kobe
Arenas
Wade

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

So are we cleared to call Lin "Mr.417" until further notice?

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

He shot 5-12fg, if he makes just 1 more shot he's 6-11fg so citing the 41.7%fg is not terrible is wreaks of desperation from you. Even if he did this for a whole season because of the volume of FGA is not significant enough to impact a game negatively. If he was 15-36 then maybe I could see some slight on the shooting.

Actually he got to the basket often but didn't finish as well as he could have at the rim. He drew a couple fouls from penetration. There was a drive where he dribbled left and finished with his left in traffic.

He needs to improve his handle some and finishing in traffic. His passing/playmaking ability was on POINT yesterday.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

41.7% FG is pretty crappy.
I dunno if 0-2 from 3 could be really considered "terrible".

2:1 assist to turnover ratio isn't exactly terrible. Playmaker types who have had lower than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio over 2011 season:

Lebron
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kobe
Arenas
Wade

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

All those players take huge dumps on Lin. I don't know what you are attempting to prove. Lin has played like poo the last few weeks and last night. 4 TO is simply not good no matter how you try to spin it.

3G4G wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

He shot 5-12fg, if he makes just 1 more shot he's 6-11fg so citing the 41.7%fg is not terrible is wreaks of desperation from you. Even if he did this for a whole season because of the volume of FGA is not significant enough to impact a game negatively. If he was 15-36 then maybe I could see some slight on the shooting.

Actually he got to the basket often but didn't finish as well as he could have at the rim. He drew a couple fouls from penetration. There was a drive where he dribbled left and finished with his left in traffic.

He needs to improve his handle some and finishing in traffic. His passing/playmaking ability was on POINT yesterday.

He played like poo. The End. Stop making excuses.

As for the drives, there were plenty of times he attempted to drive and was forced to relent and dribble back towards the 3 point arc. He just looked slow.

NUPE wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

41.7% FG is pretty crappy.
I dunno if 0-2 from 3 could be really considered "terrible".

2:1 assist to turnover ratio isn't exactly terrible. Playmaker types who have had lower than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio over 2011 season:

Lebron
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kobe
Arenas
Wade

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

All those players take huge dumps on Lin. I don't know what you are attempting to prove. Lin has played like poo the last few weeks and last night. 4 TO is simply not good no matter how you try to spin it.

Relax chief. I'm not really trying to prove or spin anything. It's a simple fact that looking at TOs without looking at assists doesn't make any sense.

Player A gets 2 assists, 4 TOs.
Player B gets 11 assits, 4 TOs.
Player C gets 4 assits, 4 TOs.

You can't just say that all three players had "terrible" games because they had 4 TOs. There's no spin to that really. I think you would agree with me on this no? It's not a crazy statement right? I mean I guess you can technically say it if you want to..??

A guys shoots 41.7% from the field. Yeah he had a crappy game shooting-wise. I never said Lin played well or anything. But if you're going to criticize him for anything in that game it would be his shooting %,. not really 8 assists to 4 turnovers.

Just trying to introduce a little logic and consistency to the conversation here. Looking at assist to turnover is logical and a nice consistent, objective way of looking at a player.

Looking at field goals made vs attempted is also a consistent, clear, objective, fact based way of looking at a player.

"All those players take huge dumps on Lin"
"Lin has played like poo"

accusing me of spin, trying to prove something.

I don't really know where we go with that as it just turns into semantics and conjecture. For me, it's fun to talk basketball. It'll be interesting to watch what happens with Lin and even Harden this season. No need to be at each other's throats. If Lin ends up sucking he ends up sucking I guess. If he does well, great. That would be a happier ending to his little fairy tale story. I guess we're both somewhat emotionally invested in this but we can still have a rational civilized conversation right? It seems that you are a wee bit emotionally invested into a need to prove how crappy he is. Again, he might very well be a decent backup at best but I'm sure you're capable of proving it in a slightly more logical way. It seems that you're so invested in this that it's causing you to make slightly illogical statements like

"4 TOs is simply not good enough no matter how you try to spin it"

"not good enough" is a very vague term that means different things to different people.

Facts:

8 assist to 4 turnovers = a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio.

I looked at the 2010 season-11 regular season using the logic that last season was weird because of the lockout.
Only 8 Pgs averaged more than 8 assists. They all had better TO:Assist ratio than 2:1. Amongst the top 20 assist leaders at PG, only Monta Ellis, Russel Westbrook, and Chauncey Billups had something close to a 2:1 with the others doing better.

Therefore you can say Lin still has room to improve in the TO to Assist department if he wants to be in the top 20 guys at his position in that regard.

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

He shot 5-12fg, if he makes just 1 more shot he's 6-11fg so citing the 41.7%fg is not terrible is wreaks of desperation from you. Even if he did this for a whole season because of the volume of FGA is not significant enough to impact a game negatively. If he was 15-36 then maybe I could see some slight on the shooting.

Actually he got to the basket often but didn't finish as well as he could have at the rim. He drew a couple fouls from penetration. There was a drive where he dribbled left and finished with his left in traffic.

He needs to improve his handle some and finishing in traffic. His passing/playmaking ability was on POINT yesterday.

He played like poo. The End. Stop making excuses.

As for the drives, there were plenty of times he attempted to drive and was forced to relent and dribble back towards the 3 point arc. He just looked slow.

He didn't play like POO your agenda is on an incredibly EPIC irrational level. He wasn't all-world but he had a solid game yesterday. His play is clearly enraging you to no end.

You might want to take a holfresh prescribed drug....be careful it's a controlled subtance

Did NUPE watch the game? At least one of the turnovers was due to him trying to keep his dribble alive. Lin tried to do that to make a play, and not to play it safe. Things like this are not reflected purely by numbers from one game, but we'll see. Don't worry NUPE, no matter who is doing the spinning (and your hyperbole is showing your bias) -- Lin's season will speak for itself -- and sooner than we think. If I were you, I'd be a bit worried about this thread, as Lin made some mistakes, but he showed some brilliance. And I think your defensiveness may be due to some worry about that and looking like a Jackass. Shouldn't be too difficult to change your handle though.

By the way, wasn't the main point of the Lin detractors that 25 games or so (even if outstanding in general) was not enough to make a judgment on a player? Now NUPE is ready to call it after the 1st game of the new season (and a game that was won by the Rockets with Lin playing decent?).

One of the turnovers was due to an offensive charge, which was a questionable call. In the previous play, there was a very similar situation with Lin on defense and he picked up a blocking foul. So in two plays, he picked up two fouls -- one for blocking, one for charge -- even though they looked very similar. The refs were not applying a consistent standard. Minus that, 3 TOs is a more accurate reflection of the game.

Once Lin had 4 fouls, he left the game, and the team fell apart for like 10 minutes. This is reflected in his +/- for the game, which was +23. The pts and assist stats don't reflect his impact on the game.

Two of the FGs were 3 pointers in which he stepped on the line, so if he weren't being stupid, he'd have 2 more pts right there. And he was not getting to the line -- in at least one drive in transition, he was blatantly hacked at the rim and there was no call. It completely sent him flying in another direction -- there was obviously a lot of contact. That's at least another 2 FTs he didn't get.

If you're going to try to derive conclusions from a sample size of one regular season game, it's worth at least pointing out how easily the numbers could have ended up differently. The hometeam was getting the calls that night.

Nupe, to be this obsessed over a player you don't even like is really pathetic. Lin is going to be part of the NY media until the Knicks starting winning games/go deep in the play offs.

jrodmc wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

NUPE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Just plain terrible? Huh? You mean the preseason ones?

4 TO is terrible. 41.7 FG% is terrible. 0% from three is terrible. His scoring (based upon the hype and expectations) is low and bad.

Just one game. But, Lin is not justifying the all the whining about gift proclamations just yet.

His pre-season sucked as well, objectively speaking.

There is nothing more to be said. He looked slow out there as well and was struggling to get a clear lane to the basket. When Lin has a good or great game, I will say so and acknowledge it.

41.7% FG is pretty crappy.
I dunno if 0-2 from 3 could be really considered "terrible".

2:1 assist to turnover ratio isn't exactly terrible. Playmaker types who have had lower than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio over 2011 season:

Lebron
Steph Curry
Goran Dragic
Kobe
Arenas
Wade

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

So are we cleared to call Lin "Mr.417" until further notice?

It would be Mr. 1.000. You seem to be confused about the unit of measurement.

LoL @ all the excuse making for Lin's average to mediocre game. He played alright or average at best. I watched the game. He did not look like a gift to me. It's just one game. Stop making excuses for the kid.

NUPE wrote:LoL @ all the excuse making for Lin's average to mediocre game. He played alright or average at best. I watched the game. He did not look like a gift to me. It's just one game. Stop making excuses for the kid.

Thank you for the thoughtful response to our discussion about turnovers. It seems that time has given you perspective to change your evaluation from "terrible,terrible,terrible" to "average to mediocre". I will take your silence on the issue and your change of wording and translate it to 'hmm....ok, good point GSTK'.

happy that you're on this board to raise the level of debate on this game we all love so much.

A lot of people don't realize that committed turnovers and steals (which are basically forced turnovers and a skill Lin is *very* good at) cancel each other out.

Bonn1997 wrote:A lot of people don't realize that committed turnovers and steals (which are basically forced turnovers and a skill Lin is *very* good at) cancel each other out.

Which means a 12/8 game on 42%fg 1 made shot away from being 55%fg is not constituted as a "terrible game"