Knicks · OT: HARDEN TRADED TO HOUSTON!! (page 9)

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

I guess it depends on how good the rest of their teammates are and how tough the competition is?

I mean Melo while in Denver got credit for regular season records, getting to the Playoffs, and lavish stats but once he got bounced on a regular n the first round it was because he wasn't have good enough teams and the opponents he faced was simply too deep in the West.

You're confused aren't you....I know so am I

No its pretty simple, during the playoffs you are playing the best of the best and during the regular season you are playing everyone. Its easier to pull of wins in the regular season with lesser talent when win or go home isn't on the line you also aren't playing teams in 7 game series during the regular season. Paul Gasol won 50 games with Memphis and got bounced in the first rd. Kevin Garnett did that for yrs and yrs.

Ginobli and Harden have had the luxary of being the 3rd best players on there teams, not only that but Ginobli playing with the best PF to ever play basketball and Harden playing with arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA today. Imagine Carmelo as the 3rd best player on his team, or having the privilage to play along side of Tim Duncan. Exactly

But But But But Melo's teams didn't seed well so if he was playing against diluted competition during the regular season he should have seeded better. He lost to the Jazz and Clippers in the first round, those were not Western Juggernaut teams

Not to mention Melo from about 2003-2008 while in Denver played in one of the weakest Division in basketball(Minnesota/Seattle-OKC/Portland) were perennial Lottery teams, I believe with the Jazz missing the playoffs twice themselves during this stretch. You get to play these guys 4 times a year while the rest of the league also beats up on them.

With that said I hedge Prime Ginobli and Harden achieve the same results....

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

I guess it depends on how good the rest of their teammates are and how tough the competition is?

I mean Melo while in Denver got credit for regular season records, getting to the Playoffs, and lavish stats but once he got bounced on a regular n the first round it was because he wasn't have good enough teams and the opponents he faced was simply too deep in the West.

You're confused aren't you....I know so am I

No its pretty simple, during the playoffs you are playing the best of the best and during the regular season you are playing everyone. Its easier to pull of wins in the regular season with lesser talent when win or go home isn't on the line you also aren't playing teams in 7 game series during the regular season. Paul Gasol won 50 games with Memphis and got bounced in the first rd. Kevin Garnett did that for yrs and yrs.

Ginobli and Harden have had the luxary of being the 3rd best players on there teams, not only that but Ginobli playing with the best PF to ever play basketball and Harden playing with arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA today. Imagine Carmelo as the 3rd best player on his team, or having the privilage to play along side of Tim Duncan. Exactly

But But But But Melo's teams didn't seed well so if he was playing against diluted competition during the regular season he should have seeded better. He lost to the Jazz and Clippers in the first round, those were not Western Juggernaut teams

Not to mention Melo from about 2003-2008 while in Denver played in one of the weakest Division in basketball(Minnesota/Seattle-OKC/Portland) were perennial Lottery teams, I believe with the Jazz missing the playoffs twice themselves during this stretch. You get to play these guys 4 times a year while the rest of the league also beats up on them.

With that said I hedge Prime Ginobli and Harden achieve the same results....

What have Ginobli and Harden achieved under the same circumstances? They must be better the Kevin Garnett as well.

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

mrKnickShot wrote:Small Sample Size - you know its coming.

His sample size is missed games, and he stated he has NO evidence at all that Melo causes differences in wins or losses.

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

It would be like trading Tyson and keeping JR. OKC did the right thing by inking Ibaka over Harden no question

Harden gives the rockets a nice core to work with along with lin and asik...

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

to me, it doesn't even matter because I would take a prime ginobili over melo no question.... but I will answer the question, manu is a better overall player... sure is...

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

Did I say that Denver made a bad trade?

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

Did I say that Denver made a bad trade?

Did I say OKC made a bad trade?

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

Did I say that Denver made a bad trade?

Did I say OKC made a bad trade?

Did I say you did?

What grade are we in?

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

By multiple picks you mean 1 first and 1 second.

CrushAlot wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Oh ... and btw ...

Harden might have been the 4th best player on his team - that is certainly how OKC felt. They might actually be in the best position to know this.

The only time I have seen Melo as not from the top few players on his team was in the olympics. LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY NICE POSITION TO BE IN.

And Denver felt Melo was worth trading for role players and multiple picks. They might actually be in the best position to know this after experiencing first round exit after first round exit.

By multiple picks you mean 1 first and 1 second.

No I mean what I said. It's tiring of you to keep asking what the deal was...

2014 1rst

We traded AR to Minny for a pick(one they owned from another team) that had to satisfy Denver to complete the trade

We are swapping picks with Denver in 2016 or lets say tentatively in play

We traded 2012 2nd rounder from Golden State

We traded 2013 2nd rounder from Golden State

If you want and try to get technical with the 2016 swap.... Denver is in a far better position to have a better record than us by 2016.

Rubio
Stephen Curry
Lawson
Jennings
Evans
Jrue

I'd say Harden is better than all of the above except Blake. So the Rockets essentially traded for the 2nd best player of the 2009 draft who was drafted 3rd BTW.

Someone explain how Houston a non free agent destination attraction was going to acquire a player of this caliber otherwise?

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

3G4G wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Solace wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If Harden plays like he did last year, then the Manu analogy is apt and he is definitely a max player. The problem is that was only one season of data.

U confuse me at every step...Harden is a max player??? and I believe u have argued Melo is not a max player...Am I correct??

There was an "if" in front of my statement but otherwise you are correct.

So Harden is better than Melo?

Most likely, yes. I say "most likely" because my claim is based on only two seasons of data from Harden but it's two unambiguously better seasons than what Melo provides. It's still not clear to me that Melo even helps his team win games.

I wonder how Melo would do if he played with Westbrook, Durant, Perkins, Ibaka etc.

Terrible. Only one ball.

LOL! Crush's question is a misguided excuse for MElo ball. Performance is impacted much less than many think by the quality of your teammates. You can be a good, efficient player whether you have great or bad teammates.

Is a Prime Ginobli better than Melo?

by a landslide.

ROTFLOL not saying I disagree I think your response is hilarious. I'd wager to say if you surveyed 30GMs across the league on Harden/Ginobli/Melo at their best it would go...

67.3% Ginobli
30.3% Harden
3.3% Melo

They would show Melo some love

How many wins per season and playoff series wins do you think Ginobli or Harden get if they are the best players on there teams?

It would depend on many factors. We've gone .472 in games Melo has played in. Replace Melo with Harden from last year or Ginobili in his prime and I'd guess it would be somewhere between .520 or maybe .560.

Its possible due to Ginobli or Harden being a better fit for last yrs roster with Amare and Tyson. Melo though has a 591 win % for his yrs in Denver. Ginobli and Harden wouldn't have that with the same squads Melo had in Denver.

I agree; I think it would have been significantly higher. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a major reason for their success. His win shares and wins produced are modest and his teams' winning percentages (both in Denver and NY) in games he's missed have been very good.

18-6 without Lin and Amare gives me a lot of validation on Carmelo's impact to his teams as its best player.

What data do you have that backs up Ginobli and Harden being better then Carmelo as the best players on there teams?

holfresh wrote:So Lin now has a better cast in Houston than when he had in NY during Linsanity...I know u believe that Lin is better than Felton...So I should assume you believe that Houston should have a better record than the Knicks this season...Care to stake your already vulnerable rep on that???

Well, this now makes for an interesting season in Houston, doesn't it holfresh? I admit I will watch some of their games. They have a better backcourt than us imo but that will only take them so far. And how will Harden perform in a bigger role? I think it will be fun to watch them play. If they get play from Asik at C and then something decent from the forward positions, they will be a good team. No way do I think their record is near ours though. But if it is (and I loved Lin), trust me, this will haunt the Knicks. It will be like the Babe Ruth curse... The Curse of Letting Lin Walk

2. Harden gets max because teams willing to pay. @ 23 thats the price for a guy who has demonstrated great skill and potential. Linsanity need not have to happen for Rockets to succeed. They are not championship caliber but this might get them to the playoffs. Their core is very young.

3. Now we playing "sunday Nite QB"??? Game management is important and we all are so damn smart AFTER something does not work. What I saw last nite was a Dallas team over matched by a giant defense into making errors and Dallas defense pretty much doing a good job on the Giants. Giants won ugly. Good teams do that. Repeat back to back superbowls are not easy and I doubt this team is such a dynasty type team capable of repeating. Enjoy the run, enjoy the importance of division games. Don't take their excellence for granted.