Knicks · The New and Improved Melo? (page 5)
mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....I like him because he defends.
I don't like him because his offense is pretty awful - hopefully that will get better with time. Ronnie Brewer is making me miss him a bit less (for now).
shumpert is better on one knee than brewer... shumps offense is still raw but way better than brewer.... and defensively I think shump is also better... he has the chance to be an elite defender if his knee recovers fully..
jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
put it this way they still have been better with the rise of rondo than the knicks have been.. FACT..
BTW, didn't they go to the finals in 2009 and took it 7 games?
ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
my lord, I am not sure if there is really a response for that....
ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?
Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right? Once again another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
tkf wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
my lord, I am not sure if there is really a response for that....
Here, I'll fill in the blanks for you:
Rajon Rondo 2008 NBA Finals
http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/2007/nb...
6 games, 9.3ppg, 37 FG%, 59 FT%, 6.7 Ast, 1 Stl in 27 minutes of action.
Not exactly the Rondo of now, is it?
So yes, they won in spite or Rondo. Pierce did alot of the facilitating (6 asts/gm) and the big 3 all played about 40 minutes a game.
3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
tkf wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....I like him because he defends.
I don't like him because his offense is pretty awful - hopefully that will get better with time. Ronnie Brewer is making me miss him a bit less (for now).
shumpert is better on one knee than brewer... shumps offense is still raw but way better than brewer.... and defensively I think shump is also better... he has the chance to be an elite defender if his knee recovers fully..
any numbers to back this up? Right now no but there is potential for him to be better if he learns to play within himself. WIth a coach like Woody and veterans all around him I am sure he will learn but right now SHump offensive game is not there.
http://knickerblogger.net/2012-report-ca...
Stats:
Player Age G MP MPG PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% TOV% USG%
Iman Shumpert 21 59 1705 28.9 10.8 0.484 0.446 6.3 15.6 16 18.2Per 36 Minutes:
FGA 3PA 3P% FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
11.3 3.3 0.306 2.3 0.798 0.9 3 3.9 3.5 2.1 0.2 2.3 3.7 11.9First, this: Iman Shumpert is a gifted defensive player. He has the full tool kit of a great on-ball defender: good form and footwork, quick hands, long arms, a strong core, the ability to stop on a dime and pivot, and a good sense of when to pounce. He ranked in the top seven in the league this year in both steals per game and steal rate. While Mike Woodson and Tyson Chandler have been credited with the Knicks’ defensive renaissance, Shumpert became the best one-on-one perimeter stopper the Knicks have had in at least a decade. So the story goes.
So why can’t I find a stat that tells that story?
The Knicks forced more turnovers with Shumpert on the court than with him on the bench, it’s true, but they also committed two more fouls and allowed two more free throw attempts per 100 possessions of Shumpert time. Though this could be explained away as a byproduct of Shumpert’s aggressiveness, the more surprising discovery is that opposing offenses were generally more efficient with Shumpert in the game, scoring 102.9 points per 100 possessions (on a 49.1% eFG) compared to 101.3 with Shumpert off (on a 47.7% eFG).
Given all the different identities the Knicks had this year, statistics that are this broad may be unreliable. So let’s look at a more specific example:
These were the two most commonly used Knicks lineups this season. The only difference between the two is that one includes Shumpert and one includes Jeremy Lin, a folk hero to be sure but nobody’s idea of a lockdown defender. And the Lin lineup is not just better on the defensive end, but enormously better. The 9 points per 100 possessions drop-off is bigger than the difference between the overall defensive efficiencies of the Celtics and Pistons this year and, considering that those teams had similarly efficient offenses and Boston won 14 more games than Detroit, you could say that the gap is a pretty big deal. Lin’s dynamic stretch came during a particularly electric moment in the Knicks’ season and against some fairly weak competition, which likely accounts for some of the margin. Still, considering that Shumpert nearly made second-team all-defense and DID make first-team all-rookie, it’s possible that our defense-starved fan base has overreacted a bit to the emergence of a player who, while possessing the physical tools of an all-world defender, simply needed his first year to get up to NBA speed. This is totally acceptable by the way — there aren’t a lot of players who enter the league with perfectly honed defensive instincts. But we should be open to the possibility that Shumpert wasn’t quite as effective a defensive player this season as it felt like while it was happening. More likely he was a good defender with the potential to develop into a truly great defender.
And he might need to be a great defender because the other side of the ball was a pretty big problem. Since 2000, 4 rookie guards have logged 1,000 minutes for the Knicks and you can probably guess who they are. Nate Robinson. Toney Douglas. Landry Fields. Iman Shumpert. Based on essentially all traditional and advanced statistical metrics, Shumpert was by far — and I mean by F-A-R — the worst offensive player of the four. And we’re not exactly talking about a group whose jerseys are flying off the shelves of the Modell’s at 37th and 7th; while some optimism remains about Fields even after an up-and-down sophomore season, Douglas and Robinson’s once-bright futures with the franchise are now topics not discussed by Knicks’ fans in polite company. And yet, as rookies, both players out-shot Shumpert (as measured by FG%, 3P%, TS%, or eFG% — so basically pick your metric). Both had higher assist rates and lower turnover rates despite higher usage. And, despite giving up 10 inches, rookie Nate also topped Shumpert’s 2011-2012 rebound rate:
So again, on at least one side of the ball Shumpert is off to a demonstrably worse start than a couple of guys who were (rightly!) never really expected to become anything more than effective bench players. And on the other side, despite considerable physical and technical tools in evidence, his shifts paled in comparison to those played by a diminutive guard from Harvard who most thought to be too slow to have any role in the league, let alone provide meaningful defensive resistance against NBA perimeter players.
And yet, I would submit that optimism for Shumpert currently exceeds that of any Knick guard at this stage in his career since Rod Strickland (and he got traded for Mo Cheeks like, 20 minutes later and then Cheeks got traded for a draft pick and the draft pick became Charlie Ward so….yeah). I would say that, at this point, most Knicks fans believe that if Shumpert fully recovers from his knee injury, he will make (and deserve to make) several all-defense teams and polish his offensive game to the point of being a solid #1 defender and 4th offensive option on a contending team. This could totally come to pass, but I think there’s more room between his head and the ceiling than most are allowing for. Here’s some of what needs to happen:
OFFENSE: He’s simply being misutilized, although this was a much larger problem at the beginning of the year than at the end. As Sebastian Pruiti covered at length in his must-read rookie rankings on Grantland, his positional and play-type splits made it clear that the two things Shumpert should definitely NOT be doing were quarterbacking the offense and being the primary option in pick-and-roll sets — in other words, the two most important functions of the D’AntoniBall point guard role that injuries forced Shumpert to play so much of in the early part of the season. The emergence of Lin and the return of Baron Davis largely relieved Shumpert of this responsibility. For a while, he thrived playing the two guard off of Lin, whose chaotic slash-and-look style pulled defenders out of position and created the driving lanes that Shumpert’s isolation skills and raw athleticism were able to exploit. Then D’Antoni resigned, Lin got hurt, and Woodson’s iso-Melo offense took hold. And iso-Melo is decidedly not iso-Shump. It’s a system where catch-and-shooters thrive and, though a hot March saw a spike in Shumpert’s shooting numbers, there is nothing in his college or pro stats before or since that indicate it to be anything but an anomaly. Maybe when Lin comes back next year he’ll get some of that off-the-ball magic going again. But in the long run, this is Melo’s offense and Shump best learn to thrive in it. Which means as soon as that knee is healed up, get thee to a gymnasium for 500 threes a day.
DEFENSE: I cop to being a little bit stumped (Shumped? No? You want me to leave now? Sorry, two more paragraphs); I have the same eyes as the rest of you and it doesn’t look like he’s doing anything wrong. I do think he can get caught trying to jump lanes and over-help when teammates miss assignments. I have seen him close out on stray would-be shooters only to have them make the extra pass to the player that Shumpert left behind. I think it’s really just a matter of his knee coming all the way back (not a given, but his age and body type profile would seem to be ideal) and him getting more used to the NBA game (which should not be a problem).
The most recent data point in a startling run of Knick drafting competence, Iman Shumpert had an encouraging rookie year in which he showed incredible promise on the defensive end of the ball and the requisite athleticism to be a plus offensive player if utilized and developed properly. If he was a bit overrated, it was only because of the excitement that comes with watching a player whose youth and explosiveness can at times make his potential seem limitless. Depending on the success of his recovery from major knee surgery, Shumpert’s rookie season will either stand as a first glimpse of potential that has yet to be fully harnessed or a burst of brilliance that was never allowed to be completely realized. No matter how the future plays out, this was a strong debut by an unheralded prospect that has left us all unafraid to ask for more.
ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Fully agree with this.
Rondo in 08 definitely is not the guy of today, and if their big three were still the same as 08 they'd have more than one ring together.
yellowboy90 wrote:tkf wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....I like him because he defends.
I don't like him because his offense is pretty awful - hopefully that will get better with time. Ronnie Brewer is making me miss him a bit less (for now).
shumpert is better on one knee than brewer... shumps offense is still raw but way better than brewer.... and defensively I think shump is also better... he has the chance to be an elite defender if his knee recovers fully..
any numbers to back this up? Right now no but there is potential for him to be better if he learns to play within himself. WIth a coach like Woody and veterans all around him I am sure he will learn but right now SHump offensive game is not there.
http://knickerblogger.net/2012-report-ca...Stats:
Player Age G MP MPG PER TS% eFG% TRB% AST% TOV% USG%
Iman Shumpert 21 59 1705 28.9 10.8 0.484 0.446 6.3 15.6 16 18.2Per 36 Minutes:
FGA 3PA 3P% FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
11.3 3.3 0.306 2.3 0.798 0.9 3 3.9 3.5 2.1 0.2 2.3 3.7 11.9First, this: Iman Shumpert is a gifted defensive player. He has the full tool kit of a great on-ball defender: good form and footwork, quick hands, long arms, a strong core, the ability to stop on a dime and pivot, and a good sense of when to pounce. He ranked in the top seven in the league this year in both steals per game and steal rate. While Mike Woodson and Tyson Chandler have been credited with the Knicks’ defensive renaissance, Shumpert became the best one-on-one perimeter stopper the Knicks have had in at least a decade. So the story goes.
So why can’t I find a stat that tells that story?
The Knicks forced more turnovers with Shumpert on the court than with him on the bench, it’s true, but they also committed two more fouls and allowed two more free throw attempts per 100 possessions of Shumpert time. Though this could be explained away as a byproduct of Shumpert’s aggressiveness, the more surprising discovery is that opposing offenses were generally more efficient with Shumpert in the game, scoring 102.9 points per 100 possessions (on a 49.1% eFG) compared to 101.3 with Shumpert off (on a 47.7% eFG).
Given all the different identities the Knicks had this year, statistics that are this broad may be unreliable. So let’s look at a more specific example:
These were the two most commonly used Knicks lineups this season. The only difference between the two is that one includes Shumpert and one includes Jeremy Lin, a folk hero to be sure but nobody’s idea of a lockdown defender. And the Lin lineup is not just better on the defensive end, but enormously better. The 9 points per 100 possessions drop-off is bigger than the difference between the overall defensive efficiencies of the Celtics and Pistons this year and, considering that those teams had similarly efficient offenses and Boston won 14 more games than Detroit, you could say that the gap is a pretty big deal. Lin’s dynamic stretch came during a particularly electric moment in the Knicks’ season and against some fairly weak competition, which likely accounts for some of the margin. Still, considering that Shumpert nearly made second-team all-defense and DID make first-team all-rookie, it’s possible that our defense-starved fan base has overreacted a bit to the emergence of a player who, while possessing the physical tools of an all-world defender, simply needed his first year to get up to NBA speed. This is totally acceptable by the way — there aren’t a lot of players who enter the league with perfectly honed defensive instincts. But we should be open to the possibility that Shumpert wasn’t quite as effective a defensive player this season as it felt like while it was happening. More likely he was a good defender with the potential to develop into a truly great defender.
And he might need to be a great defender because the other side of the ball was a pretty big problem. Since 2000, 4 rookie guards have logged 1,000 minutes for the Knicks and you can probably guess who they are. Nate Robinson. Toney Douglas. Landry Fields. Iman Shumpert. Based on essentially all traditional and advanced statistical metrics, Shumpert was by far — and I mean by F-A-R — the worst offensive player of the four. And we’re not exactly talking about a group whose jerseys are flying off the shelves of the Modell’s at 37th and 7th; while some optimism remains about Fields even after an up-and-down sophomore season, Douglas and Robinson’s once-bright futures with the franchise are now topics not discussed by Knicks’ fans in polite company. And yet, as rookies, both players out-shot Shumpert (as measured by FG%, 3P%, TS%, or eFG% — so basically pick your metric). Both had higher assist rates and lower turnover rates despite higher usage. And, despite giving up 10 inches, rookie Nate also topped Shumpert’s 2011-2012 rebound rate:
So again, on at least one side of the ball Shumpert is off to a demonstrably worse start than a couple of guys who were (rightly!) never really expected to become anything more than effective bench players. And on the other side, despite considerable physical and technical tools in evidence, his shifts paled in comparison to those played by a diminutive guard from Harvard who most thought to be too slow to have any role in the league, let alone provide meaningful defensive resistance against NBA perimeter players.
And yet, I would submit that optimism for Shumpert currently exceeds that of any Knick guard at this stage in his career since Rod Strickland (and he got traded for Mo Cheeks like, 20 minutes later and then Cheeks got traded for a draft pick and the draft pick became Charlie Ward so….yeah). I would say that, at this point, most Knicks fans believe that if Shumpert fully recovers from his knee injury, he will make (and deserve to make) several all-defense teams and polish his offensive game to the point of being a solid #1 defender and 4th offensive option on a contending team. This could totally come to pass, but I think there’s more room between his head and the ceiling than most are allowing for. Here’s some of what needs to happen:
OFFENSE: He’s simply being misutilized, although this was a much larger problem at the beginning of the year than at the end. As Sebastian Pruiti covered at length in his must-read rookie rankings on Grantland, his positional and play-type splits made it clear that the two things Shumpert should definitely NOT be doing were quarterbacking the offense and being the primary option in pick-and-roll sets — in other words, the two most important functions of the D’AntoniBall point guard role that injuries forced Shumpert to play so much of in the early part of the season. The emergence of Lin and the return of Baron Davis largely relieved Shumpert of this responsibility. For a while, he thrived playing the two guard off of Lin, whose chaotic slash-and-look style pulled defenders out of position and created the driving lanes that Shumpert’s isolation skills and raw athleticism were able to exploit. Then D’Antoni resigned, Lin got hurt, and Woodson’s iso-Melo offense took hold. And iso-Melo is decidedly not iso-Shump. It’s a system where catch-and-shooters thrive and, though a hot March saw a spike in Shumpert’s shooting numbers, there is nothing in his college or pro stats before or since that indicate it to be anything but an anomaly. Maybe when Lin comes back next year he’ll get some of that off-the-ball magic going again. But in the long run, this is Melo’s offense and Shump best learn to thrive in it. Which means as soon as that knee is healed up, get thee to a gymnasium for 500 threes a day.
DEFENSE: I cop to being a little bit stumped (Shumped? No? You want me to leave now? Sorry, two more paragraphs); I have the same eyes as the rest of you and it doesn’t look like he’s doing anything wrong. I do think he can get caught trying to jump lanes and over-help when teammates miss assignments. I have seen him close out on stray would-be shooters only to have them make the extra pass to the player that Shumpert left behind. I think it’s really just a matter of his knee coming all the way back (not a given, but his age and body type profile would seem to be ideal) and him getting more used to the NBA game (which should not be a problem).
The most recent data point in a startling run of Knick drafting competence, Iman Shumpert had an encouraging rookie year in which he showed incredible promise on the defensive end of the ball and the requisite athleticism to be a plus offensive player if utilized and developed properly. If he was a bit overrated, it was only because of the excitement that comes with watching a player whose youth and explosiveness can at times make his potential seem limitless. Depending on the success of his recovery from major knee surgery, Shumpert’s rookie season will either stand as a first glimpse of potential that has yet to be fully harnessed or a burst of brilliance that was never allowed to be completely realized. No matter how the future plays out, this was a strong debut by an unheralded prospect that has left us all unafraid to ask for more.
while i do feel shumpert can be as good of a defender as brewer, he definitely wasn't in his rookie year.
Both of Brewer's teams he's last played has enjoyed conference finals appearances with him as a defender.
Shumpert has a little ways to go on that.
Brewer was brought in specifically to guard 2's and 3's...cough cough leBron and wade.
shumpert hasn't had success with either of the two yet.
tkf wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....I like him because he defends.
I don't like him because his offense is pretty awful - hopefully that will get better with time. Ronnie Brewer is making me miss him a bit less (for now).
shumpert is better on one knee than brewer... shumps offense is still raw but way better than brewer.... and defensively I think shump is also better... he has the chance to be an elite defender if his knee recovers fully..
Shumpert is better. Brewer seems to know what he can and can't do.
SHumpert is far from a "good" offensive player at this point. Can he get there? I hope so.
ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the Finals
Dallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
What is misleading?
66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.
And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.
So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.
Thanks for playing though...
3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
I think the better analogy is tyson in 2011 is better than dampier in 2006
knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>Dirk
I think the better analogy is tyson in 2011 is better than dampier in 2006
Was about to say the same thing....
knickscity wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Fully agree with this.Rondo in 08 definitely is not the guy of today, and if their big three were still the same as 08 they'd have more than one ring together.
One can flip this and easily say Garnett/Peirce even Ray before he left with the bone spurs and all wasn't what they once were but the reason they were and still are title contenders is because of the improvement/evolution of Rondo. The key is to be perennial contenders. Not good 1 yr, mediocre the next, then really good, then bad, then mediocre, then good, then really bad.
Let's be real even if Garnett and Pierce were the 2008 version until now ummmm they weren't going to win every single championship from 2008 to present nor would they have if Rondo was the BEST PURE POINT GUARD!
The standard by which you hold other players to or attempt to stamp down in efforts to elevate our own is comical at best.
ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>DirkWhat is misleading?
66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.
And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.
So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.
Thanks for playing though...
That team had other players such as Tony Allen/Perkins/James Posey and once again went to the Finals 2 yrs later all the way to a Game 7 with Garnett coming off MCL and Ray Allen having bone spur surgery. Why is that?
Rondo was supposed to take them to the Finals and win without Garnett the following year they won it?
This past year's playoffs which most agree Boston was not treated equal by the refs against the Heat it was due to Rondo's magnificent series performance against them in ECF.
Okay then Melo will get us to the ECF or Finals without Amar'e. Melo will also give us more than 2yrs worth of contention correct?
I don't want to hear this crap about another player has to win it all as a lead dog in order to get props(when such players have proven to be a major factor as to why their team goes maybe not all the way but very close) but then hear excuses for our own as to why they've failed and still should be given props.
ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>DirkWhat is misleading?
66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.
And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.
So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.
Thanks for playing though...
This will go on forever. Starphucque vs youth movement/player development.
Melo's a suckhole because he hasn't won a chip.
--------------BUT---------------------
Rondo's the ebullient poster child for youth/player development even though he had shit to do with Boston's starphucqued chip in '07. And they haven't done anything but decline as the Big Three declined.
And please, don't anyone tell me Rondo's going anywhere NEAR the Finals in '09 by himself.
We need Melo, We need[ed] STAT,
------------AND-------------
We need Shump
It's the circle jerk of life, fellas.
It's not championship or bust, it's make us proud to be a knick fan.
Stop hating.
3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>DirkWhat is misleading?
66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.
And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.
So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.
Thanks for playing though...
That team had other players such as Tony Allen/Perkins/James Posey and once again went to the Finals 2 yrs later all the way to a Game 7 with Garnett coming off MCL and Ray Allen having bone spur surgery. Why is that?
Rondo was supposed to take them to the Finals and win without Garnett the following year they won it?
This past year's playoffs which most agree Boston was not treated equal by the refs it was due to Rondo's magnificent series performance against them in ECF.
Okay then Melo will get us to the ECF or Finals without Amar'e. Melo will also give us more than 2yrs worth of contention correct?
I don't want to hear this crap about another player has to win it all as a lead dog in order to get props(when such players have proven to be a major factor as to why their team goes maybe not all the way but very close) but then hear excuses for our own as to why they've failed and still should be given props.
Boston's core was always good, as long as the Big 3 was there during the playoffs, they'll make it far. As they diminished, the Big 4 with Rondo, still pretty good, not as great as the Big 3 prime of '08. I'm not knocking Rondo, he's a very fine point guard, top 3 in fact.
Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.
Usually it's a Big or Wing that'll lead the way. The Lebron's, Dirk's, Wade's, Kobe's, Pierce's etc. For every Lebron or Dirk, there is a Wade or Jason Terry/JJ Barea picking up the scoring slack. For every Bosh there is a Tyson Chandler doing the dirty work. Can Amare be that 2nd fiddle? Can Felton/Kidd/Prigioni keep the team balanced? The ingredients are in place. Role players know their roles, let's sit back and watch it happen...
ChuckBuck wrote:Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.
Looking at the Finals MVP kind of "proves" but don't see the reason behind this. I would venture a guess that most, if not all, teams who make the finals feature fairly great PG play with the exception of Phil Jackson/Triangle teams.
It is a bit weird that the only champions of the last 2 decades where the PG was the best player were Isiah's Pistons, Magic's Lakers and maybe the heat if you label Lebron as a point forward. Dennis Johnson was also a pretty damn good PG on those Celtics teams.
I continue to believe only Robert Sarver's cheapness and dumb luck (Robert Horry cheap shot leading to suspension, Joe Johnson breaking his face) prevented Nash from winning at least 1 championship.
ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:3G4G wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:jrodmc wrote:tkf wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:MElo is MElo... dude aint changing. You just hope doesnt shoot you out of the games come playoff times. Hopefully we get a 2009 ARod type performance so we can at least get one chip while this donkey is here.Knicks were smart surrounding him with guys who defend and know how to win. Too bad we dont have some young guys along for the ride
+100
I dont think I will ever understand the obession some people have over rookies or "young talent".
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3428/danilo-gallinari
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4298/timofey-mozgov
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3194/wilson-chandler
Not doing too hot...and if they were still here...I bet you guys would be bashing management to trade them for "star" player
won't you point out guys like kyrie irving, james harden, etc... you use the term rookies and Young talent and then you only post the guys we had.... kind of misleading.
with that said, the season is early and I expect all of those getting playing time to do well.. heck jeremey lin is doing very well not sure why you are knocking him...
the obsession is, when you are trying to build a winner, it starts with young talent and developing young talent.... period...at some point that is how you build... not sure with the obsession with old fading talent and bloated contracts...
Please see the Big Three in Boston. And their chip. And please, don't "Rondo" me. He wasn't counting as part of the Big Three back then when KG was first trying to channel Bill Russell.
And I suppose you'll counter with Paul Pierce was once a "young, developing talent."
rondo says hello...
And BTW.. why do we like shumpert? do you like him only because he is a knick? that seems to be the case around here....We like Knicks. Isn't that why we like shumpert? If shumpert is on the IR in Charlotte, are you even talking about him? Do you even effing know who he is? We all like the Knicks; that's why we're here, and not over at ultimaterockets.com, right? Or am I missing something?
and BTW, Welcome to Revisionist History 101. Where what Rondo is now (compared to the quick aging of the Big 3) also counts for 2007. What put the Celtics over the top? his 10 ppg and 5 apg? On no, the Celtics are going nowhere in the playoffs without Rondo's extra ONE assist per game? Where have they gone since his star has risen dramatically?
Please. Weak. Please check the rest of the trade. Again. Let me know when anything changes, I'll be listening. Right now, all I can hear is less than middle of the road talent that we "gave away".
Exactly right.
Boston was all about the big 3 in their championship run of 2008. They won "despite" Rondo. He emerged from their shadow eventually, but haven't been able to win it all since.
So what you're saying is unless a team wins it all then there is valid reason to criticize players for not getting it done? Because Melo the past 2 playoff series on our team has played like trash with exception to a couple games?Now what you're also doing is setting a cap on expectation from a player on another team despite the the fact his team has gone to the Finals another time since winning it all and to a ECF at least once.
When they made it to the Finals second time it went 7gms. One of their key players got hurt Game 5 blown out knee Perkins and Rondo had the numbers throughout the playoffs. You can't play anymore games after a Finals game 7 bro. A Game 7 where Kobe played like trash.... Lakers won in spite of him irregardless of how much someone wants to big up his rebounding numbers in game 7. You realize this right once another point which hurts your argument. It came down to Ron Artest and Gasol.
Before this Finals appearance Boston went the Semis 7gms and again Rondo averaged a triple across 2 series and guess what Garnett didn't play the whole playoffs
So what are you trying to say?
Boston's had a good run of it with and without Rondo as it's best player.
The end results were pretty obvious as to which players impacted the game more.
When KG/PP/RA were at or near their Big 3 prime, they won 66 games and ran the league. One of the greatest assembled teams in history.
Pretty much jump-started the 2 or more stars ERA, that every team is emulating now, Knicks included.
Now with Rondo as their "leader" and "best player", very good results but no where close to the '08 run.
I'm trying to say Rondo is no where the player Pierce was in '08. We're hoping Melo can be the 2012 Pierce of '08. So far he is.
Misleading logic
Dallas won 60 games 2005-2006 lost to the Heat in the FinalsDallas won 57 games in 2010-2011 beat the Heat in the Finals
So by your Logic Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>>>>>>DirkWhat is misleading?
66 Wins and NBA Finals over the Lakers is pretty concrete. Just for perspective, only 10 teams won more than 66 games.
And just for effect, they had an improvement of 42 wins from the prior season, after the additions of KG and RA.
So yes, a Prime Pierce along with DPOY KG and all star Ray Allen, are better than top 3 PG Rajon Rondo's Celtics.
Thanks for playing though...
That team had other players such as Tony Allen/Perkins/James Posey and once again went to the Finals 2 yrs later all the way to a Game 7 with Garnett coming off MCL and Ray Allen having bone spur surgery. Why is that?
Rondo was supposed to take them to the Finals and win without Garnett the following year they won it?
This past year's playoffs which most agree Boston was not treated equal by the refs it was due to Rondo's magnificent series performance against them in ECF.
Okay then Melo will get us to the ECF or Finals without Amar'e. Melo will also give us more than 2yrs worth of contention correct?
I don't want to hear this crap about another player has to win it all as a lead dog in order to get props(when such players have proven to be a major factor as to why their team goes maybe not all the way but very close) but then hear excuses for our own as to why they've failed and still should be given props.Boston's core was always good, as long as the Big 3 was there during the playoffs, they'll make it far. As they diminished, the Big 4 with Rondo, still pretty good, not as great as the Big 3 prime of '08. I'm not knocking Rondo, he's a very fine point guard, top 3 in fact.
Very rare will an elite point guard lead you to the promised land, Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups being some of the recent exceptions.
Usually it's a Big or Wing that'll lead the way. The Lebron's, Dirk's, Wade's, Kobe's, Pierce's etc. For every Lebron or Dirk, there is a Wade or Jason Terry/JJ Barea picking up the scoring slack. For every Bosh there is a Tyson Chandler doing the dirty work. Can Amare be that 2nd fiddle? Can Felton/Kidd/Prigioni keep the team balanced? The ingredients are in place. Role players know their roles, let's sit back and watch it happen...
You mentioned Tony Parker/Billups let's keep this list going....
Jason Kidd back-to-back Finals appearances
Isiah Thomas back-to-back Finals Victories
Gary Payton Finals appearance
John Stockton back-to-back Finals appearances
Magic Johnson multiple upon multiple upon multiple upon multiple Finals appearances and Victories
Russell Westbrook Finals appearance
And since this league has become even more point guard heavy odds say we're going to see more appearances from them in the Finals. Very rarely a small forward unless it's Lebron/Durant/Bird.....and look at the generation gap there. Whereas my list of point guards it's more fluid not as huge as generation gap.