Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
Edit: One more interesting tidbit ... AI's defensive win shares that year was 4.5 while Dikembe's was 1.8!!!! HUH!?
That is a common misunderstanding. Team wins are not part of the win shares equation.
Also, AI played triple the games Motumbo played. So of course his total defensive win shares were much higher. Defensive win shares per 48 min would be more relevant but I can't find that online unfortunately.
I tried to read the Win Share formula and got dizzy.
You are correct about the defensive win shares vs number of games played.
And again I reiterate that Todd MacCulloch was WAY under utilized!
mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
it was the perfect snapshot of an era that fell into jordan's huge wake. it was an interesting if futile experiment. take an inefficient volume shooter who makes nobody around him better on either end of the floor and surround him with defenders and rebounders and see how far the team can go. i felt sorry for those guys who basically performed a rebounding drill every night so iverson. works on the regular season as we all know.
So does putting Iverson on Denver help Melo or hurt him? (Please don't say they hurt each other) - IT HURTS HIM! Kills the team! Made it worse, no?
How about Andre Miller? Did you look at his Win Shares on Denver?
I guess if you have a average efficient Melo as your scorer, you should probably surround him with efficient players, no?
How did Denver do with assembling the appropriate supporting cast? FAIL!
The knicks at least seemed to have gotten it this year and made the correct moves (unlike last year where we started the season with T freaking D at PG)
it was utter folly to trade miller for iverson. warkentein as their gm was behind that trade, the same guy who was behind the scenes for the melo trade to the knicks. not a good track record there, is it?
if this is some kind of backdoor way of exonerating "woe is me" melo you have your work cut out for you. neither melo nor iverson know how to play the team game sufficiently and other players have a hard time adapting their games to melo and iverson. amare was already here and it called for a player who would complement his skills not negate them. that player should have been a point guard better than felton, whose numbers doom the teams he plays on for underachievement.
miller .60:1 53.1%TS his 3-point shooting has hurt his overall effectiveness IMO but i'd prefer him here
felton .65:1 49.8%TS
dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
it was the perfect snapshot of an era that fell into jordan's huge wake. it was an interesting if futile experiment. take an inefficient volume shooter who makes nobody around him better on either end of the floor and surround him with defenders and rebounders and see how far the team can go. i felt sorry for those guys who basically performed a rebounding drill every night so iverson. works on the regular season as we all know.
So does putting Iverson on Denver help Melo or hurt him? (Please don't say they hurt each other) - IT HURTS HIM! Kills the team! Made it worse, no?
How about Andre Miller? Did you look at his Win Shares on Denver?
I guess if you have a average efficient Melo as your scorer, you should probably surround him with efficient players, no?
How did Denver do with assembling the appropriate supporting cast? FAIL!
The knicks at least seemed to have gotten it this year and made the correct moves (unlike last year where we started the season with T freaking D at PG)
it was utter folly to trade miller for iverson. warkentein as their gm was behind that trade, the same guy who was behind the scenes for the melo trade to the knicks. not a good track record there, is it?
if this is some kind of backdoor way of exonerating "woe is me" melo you have your work cut out for you. neither melo nor iverson know how to play the team game sufficiently and other players have a hard time adapting their games to melo and iverson. amare was already here and it called for a player who would complement his skills not negate them. that player should have been a point guard better than felton, whose numbers doom the teams he plays on for underachievement.
miller .60:1 53.1%TS his 3-point shooting has hurt his overall effectiveness IMO but i'd prefer him here
felton .65:1 49.8%TS
The deron williams we see now with the nets, the one we saw surgically tear us apart is the player we needed to join amare and that knick team...
of course chris paul was the ideal player, but would have settled for deron.
dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
it was the perfect snapshot of an era that fell into jordan's huge wake. it was an interesting if futile experiment. take an inefficient volume shooter who makes nobody around him better on either end of the floor and surround him with defenders and rebounders and see how far the team can go. i felt sorry for those guys who basically performed a rebounding drill every night so iverson. works on the regular season as we all know.
So does putting Iverson on Denver help Melo or hurt him? (Please don't say they hurt each other) - IT HURTS HIM! Kills the team! Made it worse, no?
How about Andre Miller? Did you look at his Win Shares on Denver?
I guess if you have a average efficient Melo as your scorer, you should probably surround him with efficient players, no?
How did Denver do with assembling the appropriate supporting cast? FAIL!
The knicks at least seemed to have gotten it this year and made the correct moves (unlike last year where we started the season with T freaking D at PG)
it was utter folly to trade miller for iverson. warkentein as their gm was behind that trade, the same guy who was behind the scenes for the melo trade to the knicks. not a good track record there, is it?
if this is some kind of backdoor way of exonerating "woe is me" melo you have your work cut out for you. neither melo nor iverson know how to play the team game sufficiently and other players have a hard time adapting their games to melo and iverson. amare was already here and it called for a player who would complement his skills not negate them. that player should have been a point guard better than felton, whose numbers doom the teams he plays on for underachievement.
miller .60:1 53.1%TS his 3-point shooting has hurt his overall effectiveness IMO but i'd prefer him here
felton .65:1 49.8%TS
Fair assessment.
I am a bit curious about Miller's career Win Shares (.122). And, for his years in Denver:
.149
.119
.101
.078
.078
That is awful!
Miller's wins produced are a bit better than his win shares:
http://www.thenbageek.com/players/282-an...WP gives much more weight to rebounding than WS does. When WS and WP diverge, it's unclear which to rely on. I tend to take the average of the two.
MVP/159
Through 16 games, the Knicks have outscored their opponents by 159 points with Anthony on the court — third-best for an individual player in the league.
“You can’t ignore it. If I said I don’t feel good to hear that, I’d be lying to you. Last year, there was no way I could do that. We’re working as a team. As a result, that’s what you hear.’’
“I’m healthy, I wasn’t 100 percent last year. We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
it was the perfect snapshot of an era that fell into jordan's huge wake. it was an interesting if futile experiment. take an inefficient volume shooter who makes nobody around him better on either end of the floor and surround him with defenders and rebounders and see how far the team can go. i felt sorry for those guys who basically performed a rebounding drill every night so iverson. works on the regular season as we all know.
So does putting Iverson on Denver help Melo or hurt him? (Please don't say they hurt each other) - IT HURTS HIM! Kills the team! Made it worse, no?
How about Andre Miller? Did you look at his Win Shares on Denver?
I guess if you have a average efficient Melo as your scorer, you should probably surround him with efficient players, no?
How did Denver do with assembling the appropriate supporting cast? FAIL!
The knicks at least seemed to have gotten it this year and made the correct moves (unlike last year where we started the season with T freaking D at PG)
it was utter folly to trade miller for iverson. warkentein as their gm was behind that trade, the same guy who was behind the scenes for the melo trade to the knicks. not a good track record there, is it?
if this is some kind of backdoor way of exonerating "woe is me" melo you have your work cut out for you. neither melo nor iverson know how to play the team game sufficiently and other players have a hard time adapting their games to melo and iverson. amare was already here and it called for a player who would complement his skills not negate them. that player should have been a point guard better than felton, whose numbers doom the teams he plays on for underachievement.
miller .60:1 53.1%TS his 3-point shooting has hurt his overall effectiveness IMO but i'd prefer him here
felton .65:1 49.8%TS
The problem with the Iverson trade was that they needed Iverson and Andre Miller not either or. They treated that as a finished product rather then balancing the roster. Having Kidd on this Knicks roster makes Melo and Amare more potent then Iverson and Melo. Swapping Miller for Iverson gave them same results, different problems. They had more success with Billups because he was able to be both Miller and Iverson at the right times, and was a better compliment to a guy like Smith.
The Melo trade had Billups attached to it which was an upgrade at PG over Felton, which is why we had to add more to the deal. The same player you guys called better then Carmelo Anthony. The Melo trade brought in an upgrade at PG to play with Amare. As well as flexibility since Billups only had 2yrs left on his deal. If a player like Melo becomes available and you can add Billups apart of that deal you make it happen. Amare was an injury risk when we got him, Melo basically gave the team Amare insurance. With Melo and Amare on the roster you have pieces now to continue to build on which attracted a guy like Kidd. Eventually we could possibly turn Amare into a 3rd option if things break our way. Currently though Kidd will make Melo and Amare work.
mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:dk7th wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. Coincidentally, that was the one year that Iverson actually had a very impressive win share score (as did Dikembe Mutombo).
He had a high win share because they one lots of games. The sixers mainly one because they were crazy defensively and trust me, that was not because of mr "talking about defense"
Looking at AI's numbers that year which were grossly inefficient an then looking at his Win Shares makes this convoluted Win Shares stat look awful!
Oh and btw, that team won because of Todd MacCulloch and Pepe Sanchez. If those 2 players got more PT, they probably would have won it all (based on their WS's)
it was the perfect snapshot of an era that fell into jordan's huge wake. it was an interesting if futile experiment. take an inefficient volume shooter who makes nobody around him better on either end of the floor and surround him with defenders and rebounders and see how far the team can go. i felt sorry for those guys who basically performed a rebounding drill every night so iverson. works on the regular season as we all know.
So does putting Iverson on Denver help Melo or hurt him? (Please don't say they hurt each other) - IT HURTS HIM! Kills the team! Made it worse, no?
How about Andre Miller? Did you look at his Win Shares on Denver?
I guess if you have a average efficient Melo as your scorer, you should probably surround him with efficient players, no?
How did Denver do with assembling the appropriate supporting cast? FAIL!
The knicks at least seemed to have gotten it this year and made the correct moves (unlike last year where we started the season with T freaking D at PG)
it was utter folly to trade miller for iverson. warkentein as their gm was behind that trade, the same guy who was behind the scenes for the melo trade to the knicks. not a good track record there, is it?
if this is some kind of backdoor way of exonerating "woe is me" melo you have your work cut out for you. neither melo nor iverson know how to play the team game sufficiently and other players have a hard time adapting their games to melo and iverson. amare was already here and it called for a player who would complement his skills not negate them. that player should have been a point guard better than felton, whose numbers doom the teams he plays on for underachievement.
miller .60:1 53.1%TS his 3-point shooting has hurt his overall effectiveness IMO but i'd prefer him here
felton .65:1 49.8%TS
Fair assessment.
I am a bit curious about Miller's career Win Shares (.122). And, for his years in Denver:
.149
.119
.101
.078
.078
That is awful!
still appreciably better than felton both ends of the court.
the best players ever all averaged around .230-.250.
melo is at .130 and well off the pace.
even steve nash who is awful on defense nets out at .210 during his prime years.
this is an interesting metric that i will look more closely at when i have the time but in general i am wary of formulas that incorporate so many variables in a fluid team sport.
Who is this "Milos Sabermetrovic" and how can we get him in a knick uniform?
Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)
"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.
Your eyes are deceiving you.
misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Double Tech in Misterearl you are out of this thread.
knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1
All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
jrodmc wrote:knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
12-4 with an MVP candidate is no fun.
I like the sub .500 Knicks so much better.
JrZyHuStLa wrote:jrodmc wrote:knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
12-4 with an MVP candidate is no fun.
I like the sub .500 Knicks so much better.
For some reason winning is boring...
The only drama is incorporating an all star in the lineup for the Xmas game, which right now, doesn't sound so bad.
I miss the below 500 drama days. 
ChuckBuck wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:jrodmc wrote:knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
12-4 with an MVP candidate is no fun.
I like the sub .500 Knicks so much better.
For some reason winning is boring...
The only drama is incorporating an all star in the lineup for the Xmas game, which right now, doesn't sound so bad.
I miss the below 500 drama days.
Here is what you are missing:
Do you want to watch your own kids grow up or someone else's kids grow up?
mrKnickShot wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:jrodmc wrote:knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
12-4 with an MVP candidate is no fun.
I like the sub .500 Knicks so much better.
For some reason winning is boring...
The only drama is incorporating an all star in the lineup for the Xmas game, which right now, doesn't sound so bad.
I miss the below 500 drama days.
Here is what you are missing:
Do you want to watch your own kids grow up or someone else's kids grow up?
Lol if fans equate players to "their kids" that's some other innate creepy issue.
I just want to win at any costs necessary...Starphuck, Draftphuck, Tradephuck it don't matter to me. Team looks like they finally found the right formula. Coincidentally, I'm very content as a fan. I can't wait to see what happens next. 
mrKnickShot wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:jrodmc wrote:knickscity wrote:misterearl wrote:Scoreboard Don't Lie (for the hearing impaired)"We’re winning basketball games and doing it in a great fashion."
12-4
MVP (Most Valuable PostGameStatistic)
Just Win Baby
Advanced stats say this record is not real.Your eyes are deceiving you.
+1All zodiac-based, horoscopic information points to the fact that any team where JR Smith shoots 1-17 and still post a win are not actually playing games in this time continuum. Raymond Felton cannot play an entire game with no turnovers. This is not reality.
This Knick team is obviously based on things that completely deny all known laws of particle physics.
martin/andrew please reboot the matrix and get us back to a 7-9 record where we and Jimmie D belong.
Hopefully the reset will also get the Rockets to 15-1, with JerryJesus Lin averaging Oscar Robertson career best numbers.
12-4 with an MVP candidate is no fun.
I like the sub .500 Knicks so much better.
For some reason winning is boring...
The only drama is incorporating an all star in the lineup for the Xmas game, which right now, doesn't sound so bad.
I miss the below 500 drama days.
Here is what you are missing:
Do you want to watch your own kids grow up or someone else's kids grow up?
Here is what you keep missing;
Your kids are the ones living and playing in your house, wearing your clothes and calling you "Dad". Someone else's kids play in other people's houses and call other people "Dad".
Nuggets.com. GoldenState.com Go have fun. Seriously.
UK will still be here in case you should get bored. No hard feelings. Really.
if you can't understand my posts all you have to do is ask for clarification. meantime i really don't mind all the good-natured mocking of my contributions but could you at least attempt to actually be funny?
i should think the goal for this team is the ECF. after all the stated goal is to win a title, but realistically we need to shoot for a good showing in the ECF. and all i am trying to convey here, 12-4 record and all, is that the knicks have some worrisome trends that need to be addressed.
all the metrics i have conveyed are going to arise eventually, of this i am certain.
