Knicks · Carmelo Anthony's MVP Season and the New York Knicks (page 63)
Hersports85 wrote:Another thing, Melo is at %47 shooting...if he went down to his career average it will be %45! Is there really a significant difference?
there is a big diff
He has the 47 with a crazy high pct from 3. That is far more valuable and contributes to a far better TS
mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I hope Melo's shooting is not regressing towards his career #sYou are saying this based on a 1-2 game sample size?
Please don't say "no. I am basing this on his career"
Based on two games, I'm saying I'm hoping he's not. Are you saying my psychological state is wrong?How about now?
I don't think your judgement and stats respect the need for a go to guy in crunch time.
I posted a stat recently where Melo has the highest FG pct for any active player since 2001 with the scored ties or < 2 or > 2 in the last 24 seconds of games.
Are clutch stats represented in WP and WS?
Also, when no players can beat their man off the dribble and you need someone to post or break down another team (even in ISO), that is where players like Melo (and Kobe) can help. Do they always make the correct pass in that case? NO - but teams don't really run princeton offenses anymore.
Ugh. You didn't even read that article I posted on the myth of shot creation, did you?
cooch2584 wrote:dk7th wrote:cooch2584 wrote:LOL NOT GOING TO BE BAITED INTO A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS THE IQ OF A PING PONG BALL.you don't want to know what my IQ is cooch.
dk ,have you cured cancer? Have you solved the energy crisis? NO then you just a poster.SMH
cure cancer: if you are of north-european origin cut back on the ingestion of wheat.
solve the energy crisis: make roadways out of solar panels. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCuxcdr0x...
this is a start.
Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I hope Melo's shooting is not regressing towards his career #sYou are saying this based on a 1-2 game sample size?
Please don't say "no. I am basing this on his career"
Based on two games, I'm saying I'm hoping he's not. Are you saying my psychological state is wrong?How about now?
I don't think your judgement and stats respect the need for a go to guy in crunch time.
I posted a stat recently where Melo has the highest FG pct for any active player since 2001 with the scored ties or < 2 or > 2 in the last 24 seconds of games.
Are clutch stats represented in WP and WS?
Also, when no players can beat their man off the dribble and you need someone to post or break down another team (even in ISO), that is where players like Melo (and Kobe) can help. Do they always make the correct pass in that case? NO - but teams don't really run princeton offenses anymore.
Ugh. You didn't even read that article I posted on the myth of shot creation, did you?
No I did not.
Did you see my paper related to smoking and how it reduces the chances of Parkinsons by 72 percent?
Ugh!
Here is a little bit:
And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
This isn't Baseball nerds, ever play flows in and out of many different variables that you can't quantifi with a ratio.
Melo is in the discussion for league MVP, deal with it.
Anji wrote:I believe in the Kobe assist.
This isn't Baseball nerds, ever play flows in and out of many different variables that you can't quantifi with a ratio.Melo is in the discussion for league MVP, deal with it.
Nailed it
Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=W...
Here is a little bit:And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.
NYKMentality wrote:Madison Square Garden faithful loves Melo. They enjoy the greatest Knick talent since Patrick Ewing himself during #33's prime years. At the line tonight with under two minutes to go while Melo was on the verge of putting up 19 fourt quarter points? We heard chants of MVP. MVP. MVP. MVP. Our fan base has spoken; Melo's in the running for MVP. This isn't a sarcastic chant in which we're known for either, this is a serious chant for MVP. Our fan base? The Garden Faithful? We appreciate Melo and his dominating performance(s). There are two sides to basketball. Offense and Defense. With rebounding somewhere in the middle. Melo Anthony? Not only is he one of the strongest rebounding SF's in the game today, but he's also one of the greatest offensive phenom's in the entire world. Just wow watching Melo perform on a nightly basis.
absolutely. between those chants and Kobe Bryant endorsing Melo as the MVP it's hard to believe that 'Knicks fans' on this board are arguing against Melo
SupremeCommander wrote:NYKMentality wrote:Madison Square Garden faithful loves Melo. They enjoy the greatest Knick talent since Patrick Ewing himself during #33's prime years. At the line tonight with under two minutes to go while Melo was on the verge of putting up 19 fourt quarter points? We heard chants of MVP. MVP. MVP. MVP. Our fan base has spoken; Melo's in the running for MVP. This isn't a sarcastic chant in which we're known for either, this is a serious chant for MVP. Our fan base? The Garden Faithful? We appreciate Melo and his dominating performance(s). There are two sides to basketball. Offense and Defense. With rebounding somewhere in the middle. Melo Anthony? Not only is he one of the strongest rebounding SF's in the game today, but he's also one of the greatest offensive phenom's in the entire world. Just wow watching Melo perform on a nightly basis.absolutely. between those chants and Kobe Bryant endorsing Melo as the MVP it's hard to believe that 'Knicks fans' on this board are arguing against Melo
Jason Kidd has also gone on record, stating how Melo has been an amazing teammate and/or team first player. Jason Kidd we're talking about. Then tonight? Go to MSG.Com and watch Woodson's interview after the game. Stated that after Melo got his 5th foul? How he turned it up a notch with an MVP performance.
SupremeCommander wrote:NYKMentality wrote:Madison Square Garden faithful loves Melo. They enjoy the greatest Knick talent since Patrick Ewing himself during #33's prime years. At the line tonight with under two minutes to go while Melo was on the verge of putting up 19 fourt quarter points? We heard chants of MVP. MVP. MVP. MVP. Our fan base has spoken; Melo's in the running for MVP. This isn't a sarcastic chant in which we're known for either, this is a serious chant for MVP. Our fan base? The Garden Faithful? We appreciate Melo and his dominating performance(s). There are two sides to basketball. Offense and Defense. With rebounding somewhere in the middle. Melo Anthony? Not only is he one of the strongest rebounding SF's in the game today, but he's also one of the greatest offensive phenom's in the entire world. Just wow watching Melo perform on a nightly basis.absolutely. between those chants and Kobe Bryant endorsing Melo as the MVP it's hard to believe that 'Knicks fans' on this board are arguing against Melo
I ENDORSE THESE POSTS 100%. Let the naysayers stew and say negatives,we knowledgeable Knicks and Melo fans know whats going on.MELO FOR MVP. Very true with the WOW EVERY DAMN NITE.
Of course,SOMEONE,NOT SAYING WHO,is gonna crawl outta the woodwork like a worm and of course find negatives with MELOS performance,letem talk shit, WE KNOW WHAT MELO CAN AND IS DOING FOR THIS TEAM AND THE CITY OF NY AND KNICKS FANS ALL OVER THE WORLD. 20 WINS 7 LOSSES THATS ALL THAT MATTERS. GO KNICKS
When it's all said and done? When Melo's chapter as a Knick is finally written? How many championships would Melo have won by then? Who knows, that's what the journey's for. But there will be no question about it; We'll look back on pure greatness that forced his way out of Denver in order to play for his heart. New York City. His current #7 jersey? It'll one day be hanging from the Garden rafters alongside Ewing and all the great one's. Something simple minded Knick fans can't seem to imagine. When it's all said and done? Melo may rank top 5 all-time in NBA scoring. Stay healthy, and it's top 10 without question. All-Time we're speaking too.
SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=W...
Here is a little bit:And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.
If you're now changing the topic to creating high percentage shots, then yes that's important. Career TS% is the best indicator of the quality of your shots though. Obviously the frequency of your shots is important - getting lots of high quality shots is better than only a few. Someone who gets a lot of them will have higher win shares and wins produced though. The point is, you've now simply changed the topic to something that the sabermetrics do not overlook.
Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=W...
Here is a little bit:And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.
If you're now changing the topic to creating high percentage shots, then yes that's important. Career TS% is the best indicator of the quality of your shots though.
That's not necessarily true. It's not an indicator of the quality of your shots it's just an indicator of your makes.
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=W...
Here is a little bit:And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.
If you're now changing the topic to creating high percentage shots, then yes that's important. Career TS% is the best indicator of the quality of your shots though.
That's not necessarily true. It's not an indicator of the quality of your shots it's just an indicator of your makes.
A high quality shot is one that you make a high percentage of the time.
IronWillGiroud wrote:Creating your own shot is just having the balls to get a shot up. That's the difference between a guy that will shoot 41 times and not give a fuck if he makes 18, it's because he's the guy that's taking it all on his shoulders. Most guys in NBA can create some sort of shot, they just don't have the balls, that's why Melo is a Superstar
AGREED.
Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:http://www.thenbageek.com/articles?tag=W...
Here is a little bit:And here I have to take a minute to address the myth of shot creation. Let's set the record straight on one thing: shot creation, in an absolute sense, simply does not exist. If you put a group of high schoolers on an NBA court, they may indeed have trouble ever getting a shot off vs. an NBA defense that was trying. But historically in the NBA, every team, no matter how bad, has been able to "create" plenty of field goal attempts. Ask the 1990-91 Denver Nuggets, who managed to lead the NBA in FGA and FGM (by a fairly wide margin) with one of its worst offenses and certainly the worst overall team. Consider also that every team, no matter how bad, always seems to have guys who score in double figures and get off lots of shots. Last year the Bobcats were arguably the worst team in NBA history, yet they had 5 guys who were above average in FGA/48 minutes). Somehow, NBA defenses were not shutting them down so much that they couldn't get shots off.Therefore, arguments that revolve around statements like "Well, someone has to shoot" are generally not worthwhile in discussing "shot creation". Arguments that a player has value because he can "create his own shot" are not helpful, because almost any NBA wing player can do that. If this skill were rare, we would see big variablities in the FGA of teams from year to year. If this skill were rare, would the Bobcats have 5 guys that could do it? The 11/12 Bobcats?
I think 'shot creation' is poorly defined in the quoted text. When I say, 'Carmelo Anthony is great at creating his own shot' I'm not suggesting that he pulled the FGA out of thin air. What I'm saying is that on a one-on-one situation, he's better at getting a high percentage shot off relative to his peers. Kobe, Wade, Durant, Pierce, etc. fit this bill. Steve Novak, while an excellent shooter, is not in this class of 'creating his own shot'. I don't know a single person that has ever defined 'shot creation' as '"create" plenty of field goal attempts'.
If you're now changing the topic to creating high percentage shots, then yes that's important. Career TS% is the best indicator of the quality of your shots though. Obviously the frequency of your shots is important - getting lots of high quality shots is better than only a few. Someone who gets a lot of them will have higher win shares and wins produced though. The point is, you've now simply changed the topic to something that the sabermetrics do not overlook.
define shot creation for me then, because what I'm saying it's not defined properly in the quoted text