Knicks · Does Anyone Appreciate How Well Raymond Felton Is Playing? (page 27)

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7

I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.

dk7th to the rescue!

stat wanted ridnour back in 2010. we should have obliged him.

you can't use the FG% for wing players and backcourt players and get a good idea of their ability as shooters. of course you'd like to see point guards get to the line too so that the TS% has more meaning.

felton the last 3 seasons is averaging 2.7 fta, but just 1.8 this year
hinrich the last 3 seasons has fallen way off his career averages, dropping to just over 1 fta a game. you would expect this from a guy who's 32 years old.

meanwhile felton is just 28, supposedly at his physical prime for pro ball, yet he has been trending downward the last 3 seasons. not good.

Wasn't just Stat- a lot of us wanted Ridnour, including D'antoni and Donnie. Unfortunately Kahn had an obsession with going after every player his former mentor wanted- Sessions, Ridnour, Rubio etc. and I think offered him more money than we could (might be confusing him with Sessions, can't remember 100%).

smackeddog wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Kirk numbers this year.

2012-13 Regular Season

GP MPG FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG PFPG TOPG PPG
25 27.6 2.4-6.5 .364 0.9-2.6 .359 1.1-1.6 .675 2.6 5.4 0.4 0.9 3.2 1.7 6.7

I don't give you Kirk who is also a 41% career shooter which you don't like remember.

he averages only 7 shots a game in 28 minutes. 0.49:1 usg/ast ration puts him at point guard levels in terms of offensive cohesion. 46.8TS% not good but then...

felton takes 16 shots in 34 minutes, 46.0TS% and a 0.85:1 usg/ast ratio.

hinrich would be better for the knicks especially since his TS career average is 52 while felton's is a putrid 49.5. he is also trending towards a more point guard-ish type of game after many seasons of being more in the hybrid tweener territory-- that's where felton is stuck which is why it was a good thing kidd was playing with him.

dk7th to the rescue!

stat wanted ridnour back in 2010. we should have obliged him.

you can't use the FG% for wing players and backcourt players and get a good idea of their ability as shooters. of course you'd like to see point guards get to the line too so that the TS% has more meaning.

felton the last 3 seasons is averaging 2.7 fta, but just 1.8 this year
hinrich the last 3 seasons has fallen way off his career averages, dropping to just over 1 fta a game. you would expect this from a guy who's 32 years old.

meanwhile felton is just 28, supposedly at his physical prime for pro ball, yet he has been trending downward the last 3 seasons. not good.

Wasn't just Stat- a lot of us wanted Ridnour, including D'antoni and Donnie. Unfortunately Kahn had an obsession with going after every player his former mentor wanted- Sessions, Ridnour, Rubio etc. and I think offered him more money than we could (might be confusing him with Sessions, can't remember 100%).

his present contract is 4 million a season.

Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

Doesn't Grey Goose have a Knicks record as Point Guard?

felton is a zero-sum or perhaps negative-sum player most of the time. he just isn't a difference maker but he is made to look better than he is with jason kidd acting as his training wheels.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

Felton is on past to have one of the least efficient scoring seasons of a starting PG in decades. As if that alone weren't bad enough, he's one of the leaders in FGAs too. Look at this below. He's not even remotely close to the 2nd worst PG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

Duhon is on past to have one of the least efficient scoring seasons of a starting PG in decades. As if that alone weren't bad enough, he's one of the leaders in FGAs too. Look at this below. He's not even remotely close to the 2nd worst PG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

Just checked online. ESPN posted the stats only since 1999-2000 but no PG from 1999 to now has ever been as inefficient as Felton.

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

Duhon is on past to have one of the least efficient scoring seasons of a starting PG in decades. As if that alone weren't bad enough, he's one of the leaders in FGAs too. Look at this below. He's not even remotely close to the 2nd worst PG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

felton's pps is scary bad. as i said a zero- or negative-sum player.

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

Duhon is on past to have one of the least efficient scoring seasons of a starting PG in decades. As if that alone weren't bad enough, he's one of the leaders in FGAs too. Look at this below. He's not even remotely close to the 2nd worst PG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

felton's pps is scary bad. as i said a zero- or negative-sum player.

Exactly - Note that I meant to say Felton, not Duhon, but obviously you figured it out.

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Bump.

God how we miss Fat Felton's ugly runners and crooker jumpers.

Get better soon big fella.

I miss chris duhon too. It does not make him good or the type of PG you need to win playoff games.

Exactly; Chris Duhon actually could help us right now but it doesn't make him good.
Note also that the team did lose 3 of its last 5 before Felton went down.

what? Duhon isnt anywhere near the player that Felton is...

Duhon is on past to have one of the least efficient scoring seasons of a starting PG in decades. As if that alone weren't bad enough, he's one of the leaders in FGAs too. Look at this below. He's not even remotely close to the 2nd worst PG.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player...

felton's pps is scary bad. as i said a zero- or negative-sum player.

Exactly - Note that I meant to say Felton, not Duhon, but obviously you figured it out.

not hard to figure out since he doesn't pass the eye test either.

Felton gives us a much better chance to compete and win ball-games when he's in the lineup. We are 3 and 4 without him. The main staple of our offnese is lacking (PNR) and Pablo and Kidd look middle-school ball players struggling to get the ball up the court against basic man-to-man pressure.

Chris Duhon? Ridnour? Gimme a break. Those dudes never won anything. And for the stat geeks, do this number mean anything to you guys:

20-8 with Felton in the lineup
3-4 without

What happened to Felton before getting hurt is similar to what happened to him his last go here. He started off like a hot potato - all star talk. Then he just came back down to earth and started playing below his career stats - but he never played smart. If he learns to play smarter he will shoot up that list. But his problem is he thinks he is so much better than he is. No concept of adjusting his game from what I see. No concept of playing within his limits and not exposing his weaknesses.

We will see how he plays with Stat back though (and JR pouring in the points). There is NO EXCUSE for him to take more than 10-12 shots a game when he gets back. I'll be waiting to see there. If he can do that, we will be a MUCH better team.

Uptown wrote:Felton gives us a much better chance to compete and win ball-games when he's in the lineup. We are 3 and 4 without him. The main staple of our offnese is lacking (PNR) and Pablo and Kidd look middle-school ball players struggling to get the ball up the court against basic man-to-man pressure.

Chris Duhon? Ridnour? Gimme a break. Those dudes never won anything. And for the stat geeks, do this number mean anything to you guys:

20-8 with Felton in the lineup
3-4 without

We are 3-2 without him when Melo plays though.

earthmansurfer wrote:What happened to Felton before getting hurt is similar to what happened to him his last go here. He started off like a hot potato - all star talk. Then he just came back down to earth and started playing below his career stats - but he never played smart. If he learns to play smarter he will shoot up that list. But his problem is he thinks he is so much better than he is. No concept of adjusting his game from what I see. No concept of playing within his limits and not exposing his weaknesses.

We will see how he plays with Stat back though (and JR pouring in the points). There is NO EXCUSE for him to take more than 10-12 shots a game when he gets back. I'll be waiting to see there. If he can do that, we will be a MUCH better team.

good post +1!

dk7th wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:What happened to Felton before getting hurt is similar to what happened to him his last go here. He started off like a hot potato - all star talk. Then he just came back down to earth and started playing below his career stats - but he never played smart. If he learns to play smarter he will shoot up that list. But his problem is he thinks he is so much better than he is. No concept of adjusting his game from what I see. No concept of playing within his limits and not exposing his weaknesses.

We will see how he plays with Stat back though (and JR pouring in the points). There is NO EXCUSE for him to take more than 10-12 shots a game when he gets back. I'll be waiting to see there. If he can do that, we will be a MUCH better team.

good post +1!

I'd say closer to 8 or 9 high percentage shots a game but otherwise agree.

pps sucks what is his ppp.

Agreed; if he takes sixteen shots a game, it doesn't really matter how many points he yields us. 10 points on 16 shots? 25 points on 16 shots? Same difference. It's not like that would ever impact the outcome of a game.

I can appreciate the attention paid to advanced stats by some of the posters around here, because it does help to elevate the discussion --- but the intensity of which they are paid to by some borders on gimmickry. I hate to burst bubbles, but your logic is not in coherence with what you are trying to conclude.

Im in pursuit of a post-graduate degree, so Ive dealt with a fair amount of statistical analysis (no expert of course). Rule number 1 when it comes to stats is what theoretical questioning are the stats in explanation of, and what is the significance if at all. The theory has to be sound and grounded.

With that, what is the relationship with efficiency and what you are trying to explain? One would assume winning, correct? Your stats have little relevancy to that theory, given that Felton led knick squads have been pretty successful during his two stints --- this season of particular emphasis.

Efficiency is a variable of questionable importance here. A cursory glance of the stats and players provided in the link should tell you that your theory has major holes, and needs a more comprehensive approach, and far more intuitiveness. You cant use one variable as a representative of entirety, to the expense of others when proving a theory. You should know that, because when you do that you're just agenda seeking.

Now if you want to just talk efficiency, thats cool --- but whats the context? I could go more in depth, but I dont feel like it right now, and this post is too long as is.