NBA · Rockets/duo had NYK number, *But still ain't sold on HOUS Jeremy Sin & James Hardened as NBA's threats: (page 2)

KnicksFE wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:So the Rockets and Bulls "have our number" but how quickly these critics forget, that our New York Knicks have the number of both the Miami Heat and San Antonio Spurs. 4-0 combined.

Let's call a spade, a spade. Shall we?

Lets not let the fact's get in the way of NBA basketball...

Agree i feel knicks can only get better,
I dont mean to be sour grapes towards rockets,
Givin credit where its due to harden lin & parsons
The style is winning them games

However i am biased when i see less defense & more offense
Where rockets very good at outscoring teams
Just feel strongly you aint goin to see many game winning shots
Or clutch free throws from Harden when it counts.

At least Lin did that in Ny
Teams will figure out let Lin have to pass the rock & take
Chances on Jumpin James trying to make big shot, i say he can't

That is my point & point of being real #1 guy on team for all kudos
Harden gets

If the Knicks can get better when their average age is 36 years old, Houston can also get better when their average age is 24, currently the Knicks (OPG% 45.7) and Rockets (OFG% 46.0) are only two spots apart in the ranking defensively.
Trust me what had carry the Knicks on most night is Kidd / Chandlers’ leadership, Melo’s MVP type season and some good offense, the defense was only in the beginning.

Rockets are ranked 10th in the league defensively.
Rockets are ranked 1st in the league offensively.

Right now, they are not a 1 trick pony like the PHX Suns of MDA. They have a defensive center in Asik. They have good perimeter defenders in TD, Parsons and Lin.

I would have to disagree on your assessment of Lin and Harden as closers. Aside from the game last night, where the whole team had tired legs, this duo has been clutch. They are currently 21 and 15 in a tough Western Conference.

Harden is the real deal.

sebstar wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:
Knicks average age is 32.

Thank you Chuck. Now that sounds right. LOL @ 36

You are right, sorry about that, somewhere I read that it was 36 and even I was surprised.

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

sebstar wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:seb! what's up my man? great to see you back on here bro.

Whats good 4ev?? Damn its been too long, fam.

most certainly has. always enjoyed talkin hoops and hip-hop with you, awesome you're back. how's life in diego?

now if we can just get marv postin more...

nyk4ever wrote:

sebstar wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:seb! what's up my man? great to see you back on here bro.

Whats good 4ev?? Damn its been too long, fam.

most certainly has. always enjoyed talkin hoops and hip-hop with you, awesome you're back. how's life in diego?

now if we can just get marv postin more...

Same bruh...good to be back.

Marv? Thats my texting boo during games, lol.

As for myself? Im not as wild as I used to be when I was last here. I still get it in, but in a more controlled, mature fashion. Slightly. lol. Diego is still the spot. Waiting for one of ya'll to make it out here.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Funny how you now call Morey a Sabermetrician now that he had a good off season. I used to tell you that he was a sabermetrician when the rockets were awful (prior to this off season) and you did not like hearing it, argued that he was not ...

What a difference an off season makes.

I was unaware that he was one until you pointed it out. I asked you for evidence and you declined. Later when I looked into it, I saw that you were right and have since referred to him as one.

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

What is their "proven flawed approach"?

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

A lot of holes to fill? Their only true need is at the four spot and they will have the money /picks to fill out this position in the summer, after that, just keep the team together and let the talent develope.

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

What is their "proven flawed approach"?

Fast break oriented, half-court inefficient, turnover prone offense. How many examples of such have we seen at the championship level since Showtime lakers?

KnicksFE wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

A lot of holes to fill? Their only true need is at the four spot and they will have the money /picks to fill out this position in the summer, after that, just keep the team together and let the talent develope.

So thats all they need to go from a slightly above average team, to a championship level squad? A 4? Who is this player, and how will his skill set fit with the Rocket's scheme and approach?

NYKBocker wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:So the Rockets and Bulls "have our number" but how quickly these critics forget, that our New York Knicks have the number of both the Miami Heat and San Antonio Spurs. 4-0 combined.

Let's call a spade, a spade. Shall we?

Lets not let the fact's get in the way of NBA basketball...

Agree i feel knicks can only get better,
I dont mean to be sour grapes towards rockets,
Givin credit where its due to harden lin & parsons
The style is winning them games

However i am biased when i see less defense & more offense
Where rockets very good at outscoring teams
Just feel strongly you aint goin to see many game winning shots
Or clutch free throws from Harden when it counts.

At least Lin did that in Ny
Teams will figure out let Lin have to pass the rock & take
Chances on Jumpin James trying to make big shot, i say he can't

That is my point & point of being real #1 guy on team for all kudos
Harden gets

If the Knicks can get better when their average age is 36 years old, Houston can also get better when their average age is 24, currently the Knicks (OPG% 45.7) and Rockets (OFG% 46.0) are only two spots apart in the ranking defensively.
Trust me what had carry the Knicks on most night is Kidd / Chandlers’ leadership, Melo’s MVP type season and some good offense, the defense was only in the beginning.

Rockets are ranked 10th in the league defensively.
Rockets are ranked 1st in the league offensively.

Right now, they are not a 1 trick pony like the PHX Suns of MDA. They have a defensive center in Asik. They have good perimeter defenders in TD, Parsons and Lin.

I would have to disagree on your assessment of Lin and Harden as closers. Aside from the game last night, where the whole team had tired legs, this duo has been clutch. They are currently 21 and 15 in a tough Western Conference.

Harden is the real deal.

Respectively, fully disagree
Give me examples games? on situations where with thunder Or rockets
And teams take away option of last sec shot e.g Durant, Westbrook &
A pass had to go to Harden where he came thru & didnt choke a shot
What bout rockets?

I will agree he hit few daggers but solely when his team had 6-10 point cushion

However if you want to cite him as real deal as legit#1
As guys like a LBJ, Durant, a Wade or a Kobe and Melo or Dirk
I say is premature to put Harden into that tier yet as media news wants to crown
Harden solely on his offensive talents & look to shoot 1st all the time

I aint vain enuff to say James wont ever be on that elite groupings
But he aint there yet is my firm contention.

This will be proven out if Rockets stay healthy & do playoffs push,
Take OKC out of picture, then the talented Rockets will not get by 1/2
The west nba teams.

If Harden is so great he will have to do it & i dont mean by pumpin in 40pts
Cause he has the ability.

Harden will go thru same crap as Melo in making team better aside from his offensive
Thirst, Melo arrived in that feat already

Harden a fab jump shooter/penetrator pending star on rise has no post game
& his ability to pass out of trouble or FT in clutch is a work in progress,

Check out Hardens clang FTs /jumpers vs west teams past few yrs in playoffs vs MAVS few yrs
Back & recent in finals vs Heat. Especially when he is so driven to nail a 3 as he often steps back
In a 1-2pt game when all he needs is a 2pt basket. He is a pending star with school yard approach
To putting in hoops. I aint seen enuff of basics from Jimmy Harden consistently who knows? Maybe
DJ dont like the awful beard he has! LOL.

He got ways to go in that area

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

What is their "proven flawed approach"?

Fast break oriented, half-court inefficient, turnover prone offense. How many examples of such have we seen at the championship level since Showtime lakers?

They get enough steals to compensate for the turnovers. The most important thing though is that their average player has played only 1.7 seasons! They will have a lot of improvement from within. Most importantly, they have room for another max contract FA or multiple $10 mil players.

sebstar wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:If you look at the ages and payrolls of the roster, the Knicks are probably about as good as they will ever be (currently at .680) and the Rockets are probably as bad as they will ever be (currently at .580)

How are you so assured of the future when it comes to progression/regression of the current rosters, but more specifically, with respect to future roster moves and how they will impact? A younger/older roster isnt an inherent promise or guarantee of anything.

I'm not so assured - that's why I said probably! The most common outcome is for players to peak in their mid 20s and go significantly downhill after hitting 30, though. Likewise, it is more common for teams with cap room and draft picks to improve and teams with neither to worsen.
The fact that Morey (a sabermetrician) knows how to use the best statistical evidence available gives me more confident in their future too.

Its a semantical discussion, but its questionable to project significant ascension, when the rockets have a lot of holes to fill, and overall have a proven flawed approach to championship style basketball. Melo still has plenty of great basketball left in him as out best player. The Rockets are fun tho...

A lot of holes to fill? Their only true need is at the four spot and they will have the money /picks to fill out this position in the summer, after that, just keep the team together and let the talent develope.

So thats all they need to go from a slightly above average team, to a championship level squad? A 4? Who is this player, and how will his skill set fit with the Rocket's scheme and approach?

Obviously we don’t know who that player is or will be, since we both don’t know who’s truly available at this point, but this is the NBA someone will be available. I do know this though, the Rockets are the youngest team in the NBA today, and aside from Carlos Delfino, everyone on that team can actually improve in the next few years, including 23 years old James Harden who is arguably the second best shooting guard in the NBA already.

Bonn1997 wrote:
They get enough steals to compensate for the turnovers. The most important thing though is that their average player has played only 1.7 seasons! They will have a lot of improvement from within. Most importantly, they have room for another max contract FA or multiple $10 mil players.

lol...no they dont. Their steals are a fraction of their total turnovers. Besides, thats counter-intuitive anyway. The NBA doesnt work like that. The object is not to out steal your opponent. And what whats likely to happen after the steal anyway? Turnover..lol.

The rockets are alright, but its concerning that their backcourt, both members of whom are top 10 in turnovers, employ such a wild, undisciplined approach to offense. Its easy to predict all these lofty outcomes, when there is no expectation to produce until two to three years from now. When the Rockets bottom out, and its time to collect on those predictions, by then you'll be jocking another up and coming young team. This team does not remind me of okc from a few years ago, when it was clear it was just a matter of time with them.

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:
They get enough steals to compensate for the turnovers. The most important thing though is that their average player has played only 1.7 seasons! They will have a lot of improvement from within. Most importantly, they have room for another max contract FA or multiple $10 mil players.

lol...no they dont. Their steals are a fraction of their total turnovers. Besides, thats counter-intuitive anyway. The NBA doesnt work like that. The object is not to out steal your opponent. And what whats likely to happen after the steal anyway? Turnover..lol.

The rockets are alright, but its concerning that their backcourt, both members of whom are top 10 in turnovers, employ such a wild, undisciplined approach to offense. Its easy to predict all these lofty outcomes, when there is no expectation to produce until two to three years from now. When the Rockets bottom out, you'll be jocking another up and coming young team. This team does not remind me of okc from a few years ago, when it was clear it was just a matter of time with them.

Forced turnovers (steals) don't cancel out committed turnovers? That makes no sense. Harden and Lin average about 2 more committed and 2 more forced turnovers than an average backcourt. Anyway, you focused on that one point and ignored the bulk of my post.
If you look at the ages, payrolls, and draft picks upcoming, the Knicks are much more likely to "bottom out" than the Rockets are.

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:
They get enough steals to compensate for the turnovers. The most important thing though is that their average player has played only 1.7 seasons! They will have a lot of improvement from within. Most importantly, they have room for another max contract FA or multiple $10 mil players.

lol...no they dont. Their steals are a fraction of their total turnovers. Besides, thats counter-intuitive anyway. The NBA doesnt work like that. The object is not to out steal your opponent. And what whats likely to happen after the steal anyway? Turnover..lol.

The rockets are alright, but its concerning that their backcourt, both members of whom are top 10 in turnovers, employ such a wild, undisciplined approach to offense. Its easy to predict all these lofty outcomes, when there is no expectation to produce until two to three years from now. When the Rockets bottom out, you'll be jocking another up and coming young team. This team does not remind me of okc from a few years ago, when it was clear it was just a matter of time with them.

Forced turnovers (steals) don't cancel out committed turnovers? That makes no sense. Harden and Lin average about 2 more committed and 2 more forced turnovers than an average backcourt. Anyway, you focused on that one point and ignored the bulk of my post.

Bro, you're being dishonest and trying to abstract that stats that only work to your convenience and agenda. Yes, they induce more steals than the average backcourt, but they commit far more turnovers than not only the average backcourt, but their turnovers also far exceed their steals. Turnovers is more important anyway, because it eliminates a potential scoring opportunity, which is the ultimate objective.

Edit: As far as the knicks, they are playing at a contenders level (not yet championship but very close), which is superior to the Rockets current status. Again, the core of the Knicks is in its prime. They just need to tweak their roster, not greatly add to it in order to create a championship formula.

It seems like you just don't want to admit that the Rockets picked a better building strategy than we did.

Bonn1997 wrote:It seems like you just don't want to admit that the Rockets picked a better building strategy than we did.

Bonn what are you on? The Knicks have built. Their strategy was a success and the team is currently a contender. The Rockets are not and they have many many more pieces to add before they are. It sounds like you just don't want to admit that a sabermetrician got it wrong. It is just further proof if proof was needed that in the real world statistics are useless. They can be made to prove anything due to the practically infinite amount of variables in real life. Get over it.

Got it wrong? What did he get wrong? He has the youngest, lowest paid team in the league at close to .600. You wanna know the reason the Rockets are even with us in the Power Rankings? It's because they have played very well and had a much tougher schedule (and because they've been on more of an upward trajectory over the last 10 games than we have been). http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerra...
I am quite proud of how well Morey has gotten this team of players mostly with less than 2 years experience playing.

Bonn1997 wrote:Got it wrong? What did he get wrong? He has the youngest, lowest paid team in the league at close to .600. You wanna know the reason the Rockets are even with us in the Power Rankings? It's because they have played very well and had a much tougher schedule (and because they've been on more of an upward trajectory over the last 10 games than we have been). http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerra...
I am quite proud of how well Morey has gotten this team of players mostly with less than 2 years experience playing.

Totally true, when the Knicks first got Melo, we were not a very good team and it took a couple of years to surround Melo with players that fit his style and the Knicks became a very good team again. While in no way the Rockets are championship contenders today, I will not be surprise if they become one in the near future (depending of the move they make in the offseason) and considering the age of that group and their flexibility to improve (they got a lot of young players, 20 million in cap space and a few first rounders) they may stay relevant for a long time after that.