It's a week to week month to month. Durant is scoring with help from a great whitsle but that happen sometimes maybe not on Durant's level but it happens. The season is still young and next week or month the a post will ne made about Melo being in the MVP. I just enjoy so many players are performing on a high level and in different markets. It's something we all should enjoy. Imho.
Where's Harden.
jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced Stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
PER is junk. Hollinger used his own intuition to give weight to different variables rather than validating them through regression analyses. He works for ESPN. So of course they're using his #s. Basically, as long as you shoot above 33% on 2 pointers, the more shots you take, the more your PER will go up. 33% is considered the neutral or break even point. That coincides pretty closely to the lay public's interpretation - where generally, more PPG is always good - and I suspect he created the stat because he was more concerned with it coinciding with the lay public's views than actually being useful.
3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
You people are amusing.
Fine, it's always been a two-man race. Congrats!
No hurt feelings. No bets. I was under the impression that this was a part and parcel continuation of the earlier "please don't mention whatshisname in the same breath as truly great players who deserve to be in the 'scussion." threads.
My bad.
Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
PER is junk. Hollinger used his own intuition to give weight to different variables rather than validating them through regression analyses. He works for ESPN. So of course they're using his #s. Basically, as long as you shoot above 33% on 2 pointers, the more shots you take, the more your PER will go up. 33% is considered the neutral or break even point. That coincides pretty closely to the lay public's interpretation - where generally, more PPG is always good - and I suspect he created the stat because he was more concerned with it coinciding with the lay public's views than actually being useful.
I somewhat disagree....
The only thing I don't like about PER is the consideration of FOULS(Refs totally control this for Elite Players vs Joe Average and Position a player plays) and FGA(dictated on so many variables such as system you play in, coach you play for, teammates you play with, minutes you play, how certain teams are officiated, who's the alpha dog, etc etc) but the the principle of PER(takes into consideration many different metrics of how a player affects the game when on the court....BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL)
I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.
If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
jrodmc wrote:3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
You people are amusing.
Fine, it's always been a two-man race. Congrats!
No hurt feelings. No bets. I was under the impression that this was a part and parcel continuation of the earlier "please don't mention whatshisname in the same breath as truly great players who deserve to be in the 'scussion." threads.
My bad.
Well measurably Melo is with the rest of the pack right now, yes very few said early on he'd have to do ASTRONOMICAL things in order to make it more than a legitimate 2 man race. It was highly unlikely considering the way he plays.
CP3 is probably the only player that challenges those 2 right now.
Lebron and Durant as the article pointed out are having a HISTORICAL season....not the BEST of their career or one of the BEST of their career but the GREATEST of any season played in the NBA by anyone who's ever played it.
knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
PER is junk. Hollinger used his own intuition to give weight to different variables rather than validating them through regression analyses. He works for ESPN. So of course they're using his #s. Basically, as long as you shoot above 33% on 2 pointers, the more shots you take, the more your PER will go up. 33% is considered the neutral or break even point. That coincides pretty closely to the lay public's interpretation - where generally, more PPG is always good - and I suspect he created the stat because he was more concerned with it coinciding with the lay public's views than actually being useful.
I somewhat disagree....
The only thing I don't like about PER is the consideration of FOULS(Refs totally control this for Elite Players vs Joe Average and Position a player plays) and FGA(dictated on so many variables such as system you play in, coach you play for, teammates you play with, minutes you play, how certain teams are officiated, etc etc) but the the principle of PER(takes into consideration many different metrics of how a player affects the game when on the court....BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL)
PER takes defense into account no more than win shares or wins produced do.
3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.
And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
Best record + the backlash against Lebron that year.
Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
PER is junk. Hollinger used his own intuition to give weight to different variables rather than validating them through regression analyses. He works for ESPN. So of course they're using his #s. Basically, as long as you shoot above 33% on 2 pointers, the more shots you take, the more your PER will go up. 33% is considered the neutral or break even point. That coincides pretty closely to the lay public's interpretation - where generally, more PPG is always good - and I suspect he created the stat because he was more concerned with it coinciding with the lay public's views than actually being useful.
I somewhat disagree....
The only thing I don't like about PER is the consideration of FOULS(Refs totally control this for Elite Players vs Joe Average and Position a player plays) and FGA(dictated on so many variables such as system you play in, coach you play for, teammates you play with, minutes you play, how certain teams are officiated, etc etc) but the the principle of PER(takes into consideration many different metrics of how a player affects the game when on the court....BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL)
PER takes defense into account no more than win shares or wins produced do.
And Win Shares and Wins Produced are no more infallible than PER
Take a look at this chart....
knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
No, that's not what only got him the award.....
It was the absence of playing with Noah/Boozer for 1/3 of the season, the fact it was a "CAREER YEAR" for him, he was considered the best "POINT GUARD" in the NBA, and a Top 10 player in the NBA, he beat the best teams that season.....
Although they overinflated his impact on his team as evidence from what we've seen 2yrs post MVP award him missing tons of games himself and Bulls still being a very successful team during the season as it is a "REGULAR SEASON" award.
3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:3G4G wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:So did ESPN write this because they hate Melo too?
Did ESPN post this here? c'mon, you're better than this. Concede the point and move on.
Dude Melo is like 3-5 on most sites right now, what Sport outlet was I supposed to post here to big up Melo since that's the case? I went to ESPN and saw this article on their main NBA page and posted it because we are at the halfway point.
Although I touch on a lot subject matter concerning the NBA, such as the sell of the Kings to Rudy Gay being trade bait. There's no way you can be hurt by this, no one should.
But to go back to my original post. Bonn did you catch the article is more favorable to RAW shooting percentages and PER(which encompasses productivity in most RAW areas) vs Advanced stats, although these 2 guys prove to have very great numbers no matter what metric you look at.
PER is junk. Hollinger used his own intuition to give weight to different variables rather than validating them through regression analyses. He works for ESPN. So of course they're using his #s. Basically, as long as you shoot above 33% on 2 pointers, the more shots you take, the more your PER will go up. 33% is considered the neutral or break even point. That coincides pretty closely to the lay public's interpretation - where generally, more PPG is always good - and I suspect he created the stat because he was more concerned with it coinciding with the lay public's views than actually being useful.
I somewhat disagree....
The only thing I don't like about PER is the consideration of FOULS(Refs totally control this for Elite Players vs Joe Average and Position a player plays) and FGA(dictated on so many variables such as system you play in, coach you play for, teammates you play with, minutes you play, how certain teams are officiated, etc etc) but the the principle of PER(takes into consideration many different metrics of how a player affects the game when on the court....BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL)
PER takes defense into account no more than win shares or wins produced do.
And Win Shares and Wins Produced are no more infallible than PER
Take a look at this chart....
There's a lot of data there. Is there something specific you want me to notice?
Do you consider 34% from the field to be good? If not, why use a metric that does?
3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
No, that's not what only got him the award.....
It was the absence of playing with Noah/Boozer for 1/3 of the season, the fact it was a "CAREER YEAR" for him, he was considered the best "POINT GUARD" in the NBA, and a Top 10 player in the NBA, he beat the best teams that season.....
Although they overinflated his impact on his team as evidence from what we've seen 2yrs post MVP award him missing tons of games himself and Bulls still being a very successful team during the season as it is a "REGULAR SEASON" award.
The best record was the MAIN reason.
I think he is trying to point to that WS/WP grades on a curve giving PFs/Cs more credit. IDK When Your favorite player Landry Fields is considered to be a top ten player in the league something is wrong. Strawman blah blah blah. To each their own I guess.
knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
No, that's not what only got him the award.....
It was the absence of playing with Noah/Boozer for 1/3 of the season, the fact it was a "CAREER YEAR" for him, he was considered the best "POINT GUARD" in the NBA, and a Top 10 player in the NBA, he beat the best teams that season.....
Although they overinflated his impact on his team as evidence from what we've seen 2yrs post MVP award him missing tons of games himself and Bulls still being a very successful team during the season as it is a "REGULAR SEASON" award.
The best record was the MAIN reason.
Dude it changes every year and it wasn't the singular most reason. Chicago and San Antonio had the best record in the NBA last year and not 1 strong candidate for MVP. Having the best record in the NBA in no way shape or form locks a player into winning the award.
So saying Melo can get it if we have the best record because Rose got it because the Bulls had the best record in the league... in a season as HISTORICAL as Lebron and Durant are having is just irresponsible, reckless, irrational posting.
3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
No, that's not what only got him the award.....
It was the absence of playing with Noah/Boozer for 1/3 of the season, the fact it was a "CAREER YEAR" for him, he was considered the best "POINT GUARD" in the NBA, and a Top 10 player in the NBA, he beat the best teams that season.....
Although they overinflated his impact on his team as evidence from what we've seen 2yrs post MVP award him missing tons of games himself and Bulls still being a very successful team during the season as it is a "REGULAR SEASON" award.
The best record was the MAIN reason.
Dude it changes every year and it wasn't the singular most reason. Chicago and San Antonio had the best record in the NBA last year and not 1 strong candidate for MVP. Having the best record in the NBA in no way shape or form locks a player into winning the award.
So saying Melo can get it if we have the best record because Rose got it because the Bulls had the best record in the league... in a season as HISTORICAL as Lebron and Durant are having is just irresponsible, reckless, irrational posting.
What is the debate? I said "to have a shot" meaning it's the minimum requirement, as I'm agreeing with you he has no shot and is merely a contestant in the race.
But if you think the Bulls record didn't have the most important factor in him winning the award you're delusional.
He wouldn't have won it without it.
Sometimes you guys have to read a post every now and then, it was a simple point that cannot be debated.
yellowboy90 wrote:I think he is trying to point to that WS/WP grades on a curve giving PFs/Cs more credit. IDK When Your favorite player Landry Fields is considered to be a top ten player in the league something is wrong. Strawman blah blah blah. To each their own I guess.
Left to Right
The first category Wins%/48 should tell anyone all they need to know.... lots of bullet holes in this metric
Even the second category is suspect if you throw out each players worst seasons after coming out their prime or tail end of career
yellowboy90 wrote:I think he is trying to point to that WS/WP grades on a curve giving PFs/Cs more credit. IDK When Your favorite player Landry Fields is considered to be a top ten player in the league something is wrong. Strawman blah blah blah. To each their own I guess.
Wins produced is standardized so that the average is .100 for each position. Win shares is not but I am not familiar with evidence that it favors any position. Personally, I go by the WS-WP average, which would place Fields as about an average NBA player or slightly above average. WP gives more weight to rebounding than any other metric. So I'm not surprised that he is ranked very high in that stat and I think as long as he is healthy, he is FAR better than people realize.
More generally, the fact that the stats don't match up with people's intuitions in every case does not prove that the stats are wrong - just that one of the two is in such cases. The stats would be unnecessary if they always corresponded to people's intuitions. But those are the same intuitions the GMs are using, and it's already well established that GMs on average have no clue what players are worth.
3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:3G4G wrote:knickscity wrote:I dont see why anyone is upset, one player is the best in the league, the other has the best record in the league and is the second best player.If Melo is to have a shot, he has to have the best record in the league, like Derrick Rose, otherwise, he's merely a contestant in the race.
It will require more than that if things remain as they are from a individual statistical standpoint. There have been MVPs in the past on teams without the best record in the NBA. I posted the ESPN article for several different reasons. It gave us a little insight into what outlets like ESPN(they aren't alone in this peice)feel are important when measuring an MVP and it's not simply best record.
I think ESPN is the measuring stick for most Sport Outlets whether it's Sports Illustrated/NBA.com/CBS Sports/Yahoo Sports/Fox Sports/BBR.com and other respected Blog Sites . Otherwise CP3 should be ahead of Lebron on every NBA Sport venue.
Which is why i mentioned Derrick Rose, he didn't have any other accolades that others had, only best record.And his PER was a whopping 23.
Best record got him in.
No, that's not what only got him the award.....
It was the absence of playing with Noah/Boozer for 1/3 of the season, the fact it was a "CAREER YEAR" for him, he was considered the best "POINT GUARD" in the NBA, and a Top 10 player in the NBA, he beat the best teams that season.....
Although they overinflated his impact on his team as evidence from what we've seen 2yrs post MVP award him missing tons of games himself and Bulls still being a very successful team during the season as it is a "REGULAR SEASON" award.
The best record was the MAIN reason.
Dude it changes every year and it wasn't the singular most reason. Chicago and San Antonio had the best record in the NBA last year and not 1 strong candidate for MVP. Having the best record in the NBA in no way shape or form locks a player into winning the award.
So saying Melo can get it if we have the best record because Rose got it because the Bulls had the best record in the league... in a season as HISTORICAL as Lebron and Durant are having is just irresponsible, reckless, irrational posting.
Granted LeQ and Durant are off the charts this year, but last year's Chicago and San Antonio teams had who exactly that was on the level of Melo this year? Comparing those teams to this Knicks team with Melo is just slightly irrational as well.
And I'm not saying Melo wins the award if we suddenly win 30 in a row, but try to be at least a bit more even keeled on your analysis.
