Knicks · Tyson has become a rebounding machine! (page 2)

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:LOL, it's still a dig, why edit it???

*Calculating - Calculating*

Tyson and Kidd are the real MVP's, beep, boop, bop.

Kidd? No, he's a great role player when healthy and Melo is a great scoring specialist. This season has shown me that he can play a much bigger role in a contending team than I realized.
Tyson is our unrecognized franchise player, though - like Ben Wallace was the the Pistons team that supposedly didn't have one.

Wow, that's the first time I've heard Tyson Chandler and franchise player in the same sentence by anyone.

That's because you read only mainstream outlets. If you looked at stuff by sabermetricians (even just to get a balanced set of information), this would not be the first time.

Whew, Thank God Grunwald isn't a sabremetrician then!

You sure about that? Almost every team is hiring them and his judgments seem to coincide very closely with the sabermetrics. I'm actually thinking thank goodness he's probably using the sabermetric rather than the failed eye test approach.

I think the teams that are successful in building championship caliber teams rely on a balanced approach of sabremetrics, intangibles (some might say eye test) and traditional statistics. Yankees, Red Sox, Miami Heat, OKC, etc. are teams that have mastered the balancing act. Teams like the A's, for example, that are forced to not spend money and rely solely on building a team through Sabremetrics are fascinating and reach impressive levels of success, but have never gotten over the hump.

I agree that Grunwald and Woody put a team together aided advanced stats, but would they be close to where they are without Melo and Chandler, two very highly compensated stars? I don't think so. Furthermore, I don't know that experience and not advanced stats was the reason for bringing guys like Kidd, Prigioni, Felton, etc. in.

Tough to call the "eye test" a failure and Sabremetrics proven. Let's see how Hollinger does in Memphis. I actually like the Gay deal for them.

Anji wrote:Not like you Bronn to posting about probably's and Maybe's. Very unmetric thing to do, gotta come with those factoids.

Probabilities play a central role in the advanced stats actually.

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:LOL, it's still a dig, why edit it???

*Calculating - Calculating*

Tyson and Kidd are the real MVP's, beep, boop, bop.

Kidd? No, he's a great role player when healthy and Melo is a great scoring specialist. This season has shown me that he can play a much bigger role in a contending team than I realized.
Tyson is our unrecognized franchise player, though - like Ben Wallace was the the Pistons team that supposedly didn't have one.

Wow, that's the first time I've heard Tyson Chandler and franchise player in the same sentence by anyone.

That's because you read only mainstream outlets. If you looked at stuff by sabermetricians (even just to get a balanced set of information), this would not be the first time.

Whew, Thank God Grunwald isn't a sabremetrician then!

You sure about that? Almost every team is hiring them and his judgments seem to coincide very closely with the sabermetrics. I'm actually thinking thank goodness he's probably using the sabermetric rather than the failed eye test approach.

I think the teams that are successful in building championship caliber teams rely on a balanced approach of sabremetrics, intangibles (some might say eye test) and traditional statistics. Yankees, Red Sox, Miami Heat, OKC, etc. are teams that have mastered the balancing act. Teams like the A's, for example, that are forced to not spend money and rely solely on building a team through Sabremetrics are fascinating and reach impressive levels of success, but have never gotten over the hump.

I agree that Grunwald and Woody put a team together aided advanced stats, but would they be close to where they are without Melo and Chandler, two very highly compensated stars? I don't think so. Furthermore, I don't know that experience and not advanced stats was the reason for bringing guys like Kidd, Prigioni, Felton, etc. in.

Tough to call the "eye test" a failure and Sabremetrics proven. Let's see how Hollinger does in Memphis. I actually like the Gay deal for them.

Hollinger's approach is not well-validated actually. He never justifies the weighting in his formulas.
The best evidence that the eye test is a failure is that there's still almost no correlation between payroll and winning percentage - GMs are clueless about how much players are worth.
There definitely are important factors that sabermetrics don't currently account for. The best approach will give them heavy weight but less than 100%.

Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

I wonder what his rebounding is going to be like the rest of the season. I remember Camby used to be a mediocre rebounder, then one day he just started rebounding like a beast and never looked back (was it around 2000 or 2001?). Obviously he's not going to average 20 rebounds, but it would be great if he could up his averages.

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

smackeddog wrote:I wonder what his rebounding is going to be like the rest of the season. I remember Camby used to be a mediocre rebounder, then one day he just started rebounding like a beast and never looked back (was it around 2000 or 2001?). Obviously he's not going to average 20 rebounds, but it would be great if he could up his averages.

Tyson deserves credit but part of this is due to having sub-par rebounders at most positions on our team. No one else on our team is taking any rebounds away from him.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

If all these free agents were great sabermetic and advanced stat pickups, why did every GM except our own pass on them? Like the Spurs, it's more about advanced scouting, not just pretty numbers. It's showing and proving your game and worth in front of NBA scouts whether in the D league or overseas. Math can't account for 35 year old Pablo Prigioni. Grunwald's been "eye-ing" him for over 5 years, and it's only now that Pablo's agreed to come.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I wonder what his rebounding is going to be like the rest of the season. I remember Camby used to be a mediocre rebounder, then one day he just started rebounding like a beast and never looked back (was it around 2000 or 2001?). Obviously he's not going to average 20 rebounds, but it would be great if he could up his averages.

Tyson deserves credit but part of this is due to having sub-par rebounders at most positions on our team. No one else on our team is taking any rebounds away from him.

Who Knows what he will do going forward but here is a post I saw about his rebounding

One thing that bears noting though, is the effect that Amare has had on Tyson’s rebounding. Tyson’s ORB% is 50% higher (21.6) with Amare on the court than when Amare is off it (14.3). Just to put that in perspective, according to B-R, Varejao currently leads (all qualified players in) the NBA in ORB% with a 16.7. I don’t think there’s any question that when Amare is there, the defensive attention he draws helps Tyson crash the boards.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:Not like you Bronn to posting about probably's and Maybe's. Very unmetric thing to do, gotta come with those factoids.

Probabilities play a central role in the advanced stats actually.

Come on dawg, I know you wouldn't confuse a mathematical projection with an emotional guess.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I wonder what his rebounding is going to be like the rest of the season. I remember Camby used to be a mediocre rebounder, then one day he just started rebounding like a beast and never looked back (was it around 2000 or 2001?). Obviously he's not going to average 20 rebounds, but it would be great if he could up his averages.

Tyson deserves credit but part of this is due to having sub-par rebounders at most positions on our team. No one else on our team is taking any rebounds away from him.

Who Knows what he will do going forward but here is a post I saw about his rebounding

One thing that bears noting though, is the effect that Amare has had on Tyson’s rebounding. Tyson’s ORB% is 50% higher (21.6) with Amare on the court than when Amare is off it (14.3). Just to put that in perspective, according to B-R, Varejao currently leads (all qualified players in) the NBA in ORB% with a 16.7. I don’t think there’s any question that when Amare is there, the defensive attention he draws helps Tyson crash the boards.

the other thing helping Tyson's offensive rebounds is all the deep threes that this team takes.

franco12 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I wonder what his rebounding is going to be like the rest of the season. I remember Camby used to be a mediocre rebounder, then one day he just started rebounding like a beast and never looked back (was it around 2000 or 2001?). Obviously he's not going to average 20 rebounds, but it would be great if he could up his averages.

Tyson deserves credit but part of this is due to having sub-par rebounders at most positions on our team. No one else on our team is taking any rebounds away from him.

Who Knows what he will do going forward but here is a post I saw about his rebounding

One thing that bears noting though, is the effect that Amare has had on Tyson’s rebounding. Tyson’s ORB% is 50% higher (21.6) with Amare on the court than when Amare is off it (14.3). Just to put that in perspective, according to B-R, Varejao currently leads (all qualified players in) the NBA in ORB% with a 16.7. I don’t think there’s any question that when Amare is there, the defensive attention he draws helps Tyson crash the boards.

the other thing helping Tyson's offensive rebounds is all the deep threes that this team takes.

Deep 3's usually result in the long rebounds that the guards usually get. What I see is him putting in a commitment that he wasn't showing before. Before going on such a tear, I would get so pissed at seeing a rebound bounce to someone else because Tyson never bothered to jump. If you have earlier games DVR'ed, go back and you'll see it. Too many times he would stand under the rim as if the ball would be magnetically attracted to him. NOW he is TRULY going after every rebound.

Missed threes also allow teams to get more easy fast break baskets

Amazing numbers and just as important Tyson is starting to pick up the D as well.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

just adequate?

" i got it my bad Tyson I stole one" is what I heard. I think these guys are trying to boost Tyson stats.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

If all these free agents were great sabermetic and advanced stat pickups, why did every GM except our own pass on them? Like the Spurs, it's more about advanced scouting, not just pretty numbers. It's showing and proving your game and worth in front of NBA scouts whether in the D league or overseas. Math can't account for 35 year old Pablo Prigioni. Grunwald's been "eye-ing" him for over 5 years, and it's only now that Pablo's agreed to come.

There could be any of several explanations for the Spurs. They may be using advanced stats to scout European players. Or they may have just gotten lucky. If, let's say, there's a 50/50 chance that a European player will work out well in the US, just by chance some teams will have a string of several consecutive good Euro-selections - just like you can get heads 5 times in a row flipping a coin. Mlodinow's book on "How Randomness Rules Our Lives" is a great read on the topic (http://www.amazon.com/The-Drunkards-Walk...)

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

If all these free agents were great sabermetic and advanced stat pickups, why did every GM except our own pass on them? Like the Spurs, it's more about advanced scouting, not just pretty numbers. It's showing and proving your game and worth in front of NBA scouts whether in the D league or overseas. Math can't account for 35 year old Pablo Prigioni. Grunwald's been "eye-ing" him for over 5 years, and it's only now that Pablo's agreed to come.

There could be any of several explanations for the Spurs. They may be using advanced stats to scout European players. Or they may have just gotten lucky. If, let's say, there's a 50/50 chance that a European player will work out well in the US, just by chance some teams will have a string of several consecutive good Euro-selections - just like you can get heads 5 times in a row flipping a coin. Mlodinow's book on "How Randomness Rules Our Lives" is a great read on the topic (http://www.amazon.com/The-Drunkards-Walk...)

In that case, the Spurs have been getting lucky for 14 years.

the Spurs do well because of their approach. With Duncan there they have never had the pressure to hit a draft homerun. Instead they target guys who can play. Maybe they dont have a 50' vert or they have already been playing pro ball for 10 years or whatever, but they target guys who can fill roles and have high BB IQs. Funny... the result is they draft guys who can play and have high BB IQs.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Eye test is a failure, that's a good one Bonn!

Grunwald adding Rasheed Wallace, Pablo Prigioni, James White, and Chris Copeland have nothing to do with Sabermetrics, because there is no saberemetrics on them. All these signed veterans weren't in the league last year. It's called advanced scouting, dude!

Also, signing Raymond Felton over Jeremy Lin is a Sabermetrician's nightmare. Age, efficiency numbers, advanced statistics etc point to Lin, but reality points to 31-15.

Like I said, thank God Grunwald don't believe in that bullshyt.

Obviously passing on Lin was Dolan's decision and Felton was an adequate option.
All the other acquisitions either had good advanced stats or were league min experiments (White and Copeland).
The evidence is clear that the eye test is a failure even if you don't like the evidence. How do you explain GMs' cluelessness?

If all these free agents were great sabermetic and advanced stat pickups, why did every GM except our own pass on them? Like the Spurs, it's more about advanced scouting, not just pretty numbers. It's showing and proving your game and worth in front of NBA scouts whether in the D league or overseas. Math can't account for 35 year old Pablo Prigioni. Grunwald's been "eye-ing" him for over 5 years, and it's only now that Pablo's agreed to come.

There could be any of several explanations for the Spurs. They may be using advanced stats to scout European players. Or they may have just gotten lucky. If, let's say, there's a 50/50 chance that a European player will work out well in the US, just by chance some teams will have a string of several consecutive good Euro-selections - just like you can get heads 5 times in a row flipping a coin. Mlodinow's book on "How Randomness Rules Our Lives" is a great read on the topic (http://www.amazon.com/The-Drunkards-Walk...)

In that case, the Spurs have been getting lucky for 14 years.

If you flip a coin 15,000 times (how many player transactions have their been in the past 14 years?), there will be some sequences where you get heads a few dozen consecutive times (a few dozen correct signings). It may be a combination of luck and that they're using the stats right and doing a good job giving a small amount of weight to unmeasured eye ball stuff. You can prospectively examine the validity of an assessment approach by seeing how well it makes predictions but you can't have certainty when retrospectively assessing the variables impacting a specific case (the Spurs here). Note that I said Grunwald is either using sabermetrics or his decision-making generally coincides well with them, but I never gave certainty as to which was occurring.

Whatever it is, the Spurs have been hitting home run after home run. Doesn't appear to be merely getting "heads time after time":

Tony Parker, 2001 NBA Draft 1st Round, Pick 28

From Wikipedia:

Prior to the 2001 NBA Draft, Parker was invited to the San Antonio Spurs summer camp. Parker's first experiences were daunting as coach Gregg Popovich had him play against Spurs scout and ex-NBA player Lance Blanks. Parker was so overwhelmed by Blank's tough and physical defense that Popovich was ready to send him away after just 10 minutes. But after seeing a "best of" mix tape of Parker's best plays, Popovich decided to invite Parker a second time. This time, Parker made a better impression against Blanks; the Frenchman later described Blanks as a "one-man wrecking crew". But while Popovich decided that Parker was worth the gamble, the Spurs still had to hope that other teams would not pick Parker during the draft. As it were, Parker's name was barely mentioned in the pre-draft predictions and the point guard was drafted 28th overall by the Spurs on draft day.

Hardly a sabermetric pick, strictly an impression "eyeball" pick.

Manu Ginobili, 1999 NBA Draft 2nd Round, Pick 57

The Spurs were the originators of the "Draft and Stash" and no better example than Manu Ginobili and he did not join the Spurs until 2002. The first master of the "Eurostep", Manu could possibly be a Hall of Famer as a 6th man.

From Wikipedia:

In 2007, ESPN sportswriter John Hollinger ranked Ginóbili as the sixth best international player then-active in the NBA, describing the 57th draft pick as the "one of the great draft heists of all time", and attributed the trend of NBA teams drafting developing European players to the success of the Argentine. The following year, Ginóbili was named by ESPN as one of the best Euroleague players to have graced the NBA.

Hardly a sabermetric pick, this here is the definition of Advanced International scouting.

As for getting solid value relative to their draft position, the Spurs have made this an art:
Draft picks: Dajuan Blair(2nd Rd), Tiago Splitter(Late 1st Rd), Kawhi Leonard(Mid 1st Rd via trade)....the list goes on.

Veterans: Glenn Robinson, Nazr Mohamed, Fabricio Oberto, Rasho Nesterovic, Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Steve Kerr, Brent Barry, etc..

As for how this factors into Grunwald's decision making, it's very similiar. Surround the core(Melo, Stat, Chandler) with savvy solid veterans and great role players. 1 through 15 can contribute minutes at a moments notice, just like the Spurs way.