Knicks · The Knicks are a poor passing team (page 1)

I heard Mr. Hockey Genius Boomer Esaison crapping on my Knicks this morning about how it's no great shakes that they lead the league in protecting the ball (turnovers), because they take so many threes. His logic is sort of born out due to the fact that we're practically dead last in the assist department.

On the plus side, we allow less opponent assists then almost anyone in the league (Bulls are first).

Note: this is a weakness/strength thread. Discuss accordingly?

I think we pass VERY well at times. But we get into these ball watching ruts when Melo has it. He's shown how good of a passer he is when there's movement and passing lanes open up. But if everyone's going to just stand there it doesn't matter how good of a passer anyone on the team is.

The defense giveth and taketh.

Sometimes its execution and sometimes its athletic.

The Wiz shot and defended very well down the stretch. When the three left us we did try to pound it to the rim.

Im not that upset to how we lost. Its a road game against at team playing .500 ball now. Thats a playoff team we saw last nite.

We have been blowing teams out and fans just assumed "CRAPPY WIZ" and chaulked up a win.

MSG3 wrote:I think we pass VERY well at times. But we get into these ball watching ruts when Melo has it. He's shown how good of a passer he is when there's movement and passing lanes open up. But if everyone's going to just stand there it doesn't matter how good of a passer anyone on the team is.

Yeah I agree with this. I used to think Melo wanted everyone to get out the way while posted on the opposite side of the court until I saw that Amare would wait maybe 2 seconds and then cut straight down the middle and get a pass almost every time. Melo does want the shot a lot of the time but if people cut he has shown that hes willing to make the pass.

good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

dk7th wrote:good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

I agree from my experience playing ball but with the Knicks it seems different. A lot of times (with Tyson in particular) it seems their motivation for defense comes from everyone getting touches and the ball moving.

Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

I agree from my experience playing ball but with the Knicks it seems different. A lot of times (with Tyson in particular) it seems their motivation for defense comes from everyone getting touches and the ball moving.

I can't remember if it was WallyWorld or Hahn making the same point. The Knicks seem to amp up the D when they're moving the ball cleaner on O. It was Hahn. He also harped on how the energy on D often comes from bench production on O and that was not there in this last game.

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

jrodmc wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

I agree from my experience playing ball but with the Knicks it seems different. A lot of times (with Tyson in particular) it seems their motivation for defense comes from everyone getting touches and the ball moving.

I can't remember if it was WallyWorld or Hahn making the same point. The Knicks seem to amp up the D when they're moving the ball cleaner on O. It was Hahn. He also harped on how the energy on D often comes from bench production on O and that was not there in this last game.

they are making an observation, not endorsing what they are observing. not a fan of hahn or wally. are they employees of dolan? sure sounds like it. i don't watch the msg postgame anymore, win or lose.

the knicks' approach is ass-backwards and is not going to get them deep into the playoffs.

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

To compensate for our trio, we often have 2 or 3 PGs on the floor. So it doesn't surprise me that the team overall has a fine A:TO ratio. I got the #s from ESPN. I have no idea where you got yours. Melo has never had anything close to a 2:1 assist turnover ratio.

The team plays best when they share the ball. They need to make sure every game the ball moves to an open man and to move without the ball.

what he said

BRIGGS wrote:The team plays best when they share the ball. They need to make sure every game the ball moves to an open man and to move without the ball.

No Standing.

dk7th wrote:good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

that's the thing about football and basketball that are similar between basketball and football, probably most sports, most fans don't seem the understand
In general, a football fan understand's field position, DEF can score, special teams, and how important it is to the game of football

Is it because, of the subs/switches of player's that the DEF get's more recognition than basketball?
DEFENSE, can lead to offense in so many ways, but the player's have to be prepared for it, while having the right players with athleticism/court vision, mindset/chemistry, and the speed/quickness/ and athleticism to execute it.

Teams like Miami, Memphis, OKC *last year a bit more, with an extra ball handler*, Houston/Denver, all focus on this and seem to understand the importance of using DEF to score easy basket's before the DEF get's set up
ALl matchup's/defensive schemes/rotations/good TEAM DEFENSE are useless vs transition baskets because they cannot get set up
While, we started of the season with some, we have not been able to consistently get easy transition basket's on fast break points for much of the year
Speed/quickness to handle the ball and for the leaker to finish the play have to time it accordingly

Is this a mental effort or a lack of physical players on the Knicks?
This was a quality that we were able to do very well while we capable of doing with run we made during Lin's run

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

It looks like Tyson is really holding the team back with his lack of passing.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

To compensate for our trio, we often have 2 or 3 PGs on the floor. So it doesn't surprise me that the team overall has a fine A:TO ratio. I got the #s from ESPN. I have no idea where you got yours. Melo has never had anything close to a 2:1 assist turnover ratio.

basketball-reference.com. And you're right, my bad: Melo is just a shade over 1:1.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

To compensate for our trio, we often have 2 or 3 PGs on the floor. So it doesn't surprise me that the team overall has a fine A:TO ratio. I got the #s from ESPN. I have no idea where you got yours. Melo has never had anything close to a 2:1 assist turnover ratio.

This is incorrect. We never have 3 PG's on the floor at the same time (unless it's garbage time of a blowout). Melo was never asked to be a creator throughout his career. He's a scorer that is very capable of creating. Numbers only get you so far to understand the game as it is happening. It helps to watch.

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:good passing actually starts on the defensive end of the court.

i will never forget what pablo prigioni said after a game when the knicks played great-- i believe it was the second spurs game, a game when felton was out-- he said that when they play great defense it carries over to the offensive end of the court in terms of ball movement.

that's how i was taught-- putting great effort into defending creates the kind of focus required to create good ball movement. otherwise you can expect quick shots which is a losing proposition.

the key is getting the players who have the ball the most to commit to defending with all their might.

so what it really comes down to is woodson and how he deals with melo, felton, and smith as defenders.

I agree from my experience playing ball but with the Knicks it seems different. A lot of times (with Tyson in particular) it seems their motivation for defense comes from everyone getting touches and the ball moving.

I can't remember if it was WallyWorld or Hahn making the same point. The Knicks seem to amp up the D when they're moving the ball cleaner on O. It was Hahn. He also harped on how the energy on D often comes from bench production on O and that was not there in this last game.

they are making an observation, not endorsing what they are observing. not a fan of hahn or wally. are they employees of dolan? sure sounds like it. i don't watch the msg postgame anymore, win or lose.

the knicks' approach is ass-backwards and is not going to get them deep into the playoffs.

I think you are making a mistake if you assume the post game show is just fluff and Knick hype. Obviously any teams guys are going to have a bit of a bias but I think Hahn and Wally do a really good job. Also, hearing Woodson and the players talk during the post game is entertaining. Sure there is player speak and coach speak but there is also usually useful info disclosed.

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Our three highest paid players combined have a 5.3 to 7.1 assist to TO ratio for their careers. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I know I'm dense, but the Knicks are 943 to 541 assists to TO right now. The new math tells me that's almost 2:1. Does that surprise you?

Where did you get those ratios from? Melo is 2:1, Tyson is 1:2 and Amare is also practically 1:2. What am I missing?

To compensate for our trio, we often have 2 or 3 PGs on the floor. So it doesn't surprise me that the team overall has a fine A:TO ratio. I got the #s from ESPN. I have no idea where you got yours. Melo has never had anything close to a 2:1 assist turnover ratio.

This is incorrect. We never have 3 PG's on the floor at the same time (unless it's garbage time of a blowout). Melo was never asked to be a creator throughout his career. He's a scorer that is very capable of creating. Numbers only get you so far to understand the game as it is happening. It helps to watch.

The eye test is a failure. One must rely on spreadsheets to fully understand.

The thing about statistical analysis in Basketball is that for all of these metrics that supposedly measure how good a player is at a particular skill is only as good as how it applies to moments in time. Basketball is a team sport. How well you pass, shoot or defend, statistically speaking, depends on who is on the court with you at different points. This is affected by injuries and coaching decisions based on match-ups.

Statistical analysis for one players performance is much easier in baseball because it really boils down to Hitter vs. Pitcher. And even then there are things that are just starting to be tracked like if a guy hits a line drive right into where the D is positioned.

The point is that you can't solely rely on numbers just like you can't solely rely on watching youtube videos of a guy and saying he's awesome because he can dunk or make a game winning jumper.

MSG3 wrote:The thing about statistical analysis in Basketball is that for all of these metrics that supposedly measure how good a player is at a particular skill is only as good as how it applies to moments in time. Basketball is a team sport. How well you pass, shoot or defend, statistically speaking, depends on who is on the court with you at different points. This is affected by injuries and coaching decisions based on match-ups.

Statistical analysis for one players performance is much easier in baseball because it really boils down to Hitter vs. Pitcher. And even then there are things that are just starting to be tracked like if a guy hits a line drive right into where the D is positioned.

The point is that you can't solely rely on numbers just like you can't solely rely on watching youtube videos of a guy and saying he's awesome because he can dunk or make a game winning jumper.

statistical analyses are meant to discover trends and patterns. when patterns and trends emerge they emerge from a multitude of different scenarios to give an overall picture of the player.

if this were not the case then compiling the statistics would be meaningless.

baseball statistics are easier to work with but that does not preclude a more fluid, dynamic, and circumstantial sport like basketball from implementing increasingly penetrating statistics to measure a players effectiveness vis a vis winning.

i mean didn't memphis just bring in hollinger as a consultant and trade away rudy gay? seems like validation for the statistical method but we shall see if it pays dividends.