This is a very complicated issue and needs to be looked upon differently when it comes to sports..I think those who think its a right and a freedom that all need to have, which I agree with for the some extent, is being a bit short sighted...The locker room is a different case all together..We aren't only talking about a personal freedom of expression, we are talking about a sexual dynamic as well...We are also encroaching on a space which for years ignored because sex was never part of the puzzle...This is a big issue in today's work environment that protects women...This has to be studied..The dynamic of what creates a locker room environment and the comradely in that environment...Sex is a very powerful element of our existence and to gloss it over as merely a civil right while ignoring sexual factors that drives us all as beings is short sighted...Am I to believe now that a naked woman should be comfortable sexually in a male dominated locker room if she is capable of playing in the NBA and is a team mate...How is that dynamic different for a openly gay male athlete around non-gay males???..So players should just deal with it if they are now looked upon as a sexual object...I'm going over board of course, but these are real issues...Not wanting to be looked upon by anyone, sexually, in a male in that environment is homophobic either or prejudiced...
BRIGGS wrote:You know what--this might be politically incorrect--but I do not care what Jason Collins is. Why doesnt he keep it to himself? Why should any person get commended for their personal sexuality preference--it makes n o sense. If he let everyone know he was a part time firefighter while he played in the NBA--bravo. What you do on your own time--I dont care --neither should anyone else. This is a nothing.
I agree Briggs, to me the media just wants to promote the lifestyle as a normal option, so people can ease up on those with that sexual orientation.
Grown men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's thinking another man is checking them out.
I would be very surprised if another NBA player has the guts to come out while he's in the prime of his NBA career. Both cases guys were either out of the league retired or played their last game.
Now while they are playing on the court or field playing with other men nobody cares if he's a homosexual unless he starts to bleed.
DrAlphaeus wrote:blkexec wrote:Actually I never been faced with such an issue. When it comes down to it, I would still guard him gay or not. But my issue is why does his sexual preference matter during a basketball game. The only reason I can think of is to cause a distraction.If its a chick with a nice body, yes I am easy.
If it's a dude thats gay, but I don't know it, I have no problems.
If it's a dude trying to make a scene that hes gay, either by what he's wearing or how he's acting, yes I have a problem with that.
But maybe I'm alone with this, so again excuse my ignorance.
Hypothetically, what about the gay dude who you only know is gay because of a casual mention, and not because of any stereotypical behavior.
He was your cover, is one of the best players on the court and is a good sportsman, and afterwards while talking about food/drinks after he says something like: "Raincheck, I have to pick up my husband from the train station, but good game, see you next week?"
Would you see him next week?
I don't care if he was MJ. He will be isolated from the majority. He would get pickef on so much, he would stop playing eventually to avoid the drama.
DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Pro athletes need to keep that to themselves if it's normal for them
playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
Yes, and if a guy feels uncomfortable in locker room, maybe that is his problem, not the gay person's problem. Perhaps he can shower after everyone has left the locker room if he's that terrified.
VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
I was waiting for some to attack me Vcoug & Bonn. When others have even used the bible as a reference and all and nobody said nothing to them. Talking about biases this isn't personal among posters right?
blkexec wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:blkexec wrote:Actually I never been faced with such an issue. When it comes down to it, I would still guard him gay or not. But my issue is why does his sexual preference matter during a basketball game. The only reason I can think of is to cause a distraction.If its a chick with a nice body, yes I am easy.
If it's a dude thats gay, but I don't know it, I have no problems.
If it's a dude trying to make a scene that hes gay, either by what he's wearing or how he's acting, yes I have a problem with that.
But maybe I'm alone with this, so again excuse my ignorance.
Hypothetically, what about the gay dude who you only know is gay because of a casual mention, and not because of any stereotypical behavior.
He was your cover, is one of the best players on the court and is a good sportsman, and afterwards while talking about food/drinks after he says something like: "Raincheck, I have to pick up my husband from the train station, but good game, see you next week?"
Would you see him next week?
I don't care if he was MJ. He will be isolated from the majority. He would get pickef on so much, he would stop playing eventually to avoid the drama.
You would think being a homosexual was a terminal disease the way people offer "support." lol.
playa2 wrote:VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
I was waiting for some to attack me Vcoug & Bonn. When others have even used the bible as a reference and all and nobody said nothing to them. Talking about biases this isn't personal among posters right?
My comment probably applies to whoever made the Bible comment. I wasn't attacking you personally. If someone felt uncomfortable and decided to shower after the rest of the team, I would fully respect their right to do that.
playa2 wrote:VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
I was waiting for some to attack me Vcoug & Bonn. When others have even used the bible as a reference and all and nobody said nothing to them. Talking about biases this isn't personal among posters right?
I tend to think that people who reference the Bible when speaking against gays are hypocrites. I say this and I am a Christain and love God. However, we (Myself included) all sin on a daily basis. Frequently in horrible ways. Therefore, when we are f'ing this world up that God has provided for us by doing things like sex before marriage, not loving one another as brothers and sisters (As we should be), use the lords name in vein constantly and every single day, not speak up for God when people speak against him, cheat on their husband/wives, murder, steal, display racism and so forth yet say "Hey, you're gay, that goes against the Bible" then that's just making up excuses for your intolerance and how dare I say racism.
Yes, Collins sexuality should be irrelevant but we all know it isn't. That's why it's being made a big deal. As I said before, I hope he finds peace and happiness.
Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I didn't realize he was the first active American pro athlete to come out. I assumed it would have happened by now.
yeah, seems a bit creative in their narrowing of definition. Perhaps they mean Men's only too, right? I guess "major team" could mean men only.
I assume it means NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA
Didn't a San Francisco 49er speak of coming out and teammate taking exception to it? Or maybe he spoke from a hypothetical situation.
Bonn1997 wrote:VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
Yes, and if a guy feels uncomfortable in locker room, maybe that is his problem, not the gay person's problem. Perhaps he can shower after everyone has left the locker room if he's that terrified.
I never remember having to run around a locker room telling people about what I desire sexually. Why should anyone feel convicted of doing so? I can understand why a gay man would feel uncomfortable in a locker room--but there is nothing he can do about it. An overwhelming majority of men are straight and if you are 1 out of 20--you're just going to have to find ways to deal with it. One smart way is don't ask--don't tell. There is no absolute reason a person has to speak about sexuality. You go in--get dressed play hard--take a shower and go home. And to blindly believe that straight guys have to accept another man who is gay is also naive--they likely won't and they have the RIGHT to be uncomfortable with a gay man in the locker room. There is NOTHING wrong with being a gay person--but don't put that on anyone else's shoulders because they next guy has the RIGHT to be uncomfortable dressing and playing with a gay person.
BRIGGS wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
Yes, and if a guy feels uncomfortable in locker room, maybe that is his problem, not the gay person's problem. Perhaps he can shower after everyone has left the locker room if he's that terrified.
I never remember having to run around a locker room telling people about what I desire sexually. Why should anyone feel convicted of doing so? I can understand why a gay man would feel uncomfortable in a locker room--but there is nothing he can do about it. An overwhelming majority of men are straight and if you are 1 out of 20--you're just going to have to find ways to deal with it. One smart way is don't ask--don't tell. There is no absolute reason a person has to speak about sexuality. You go in--get dressed play hard--take a shower and go home. And to blindly believe that straight guys have to accept another man who is gay is also naive--they likely won't and they have the RIGHT to be uncomfortable with a gay man in the locker room. There is NOTHING wrong with being a gay person--but don't put that on anyone else's shoulders because they next guy has the RIGHT to be uncomfortable dressing and playing with a gay person.
No double standard though. You shouldn't allow anyone to discuss their heterosexual desires in the locker-room then.
Or you could outlaw all discussions of minority practices (e.g., no mention of religions other than Christianity)
I wouldn't endorse either of those options though.
Papabear Says
I want to be as real as possible about this. First of all I will start like this. I don't know how many African American are on the forum or should I say African American Christians on this forum and if you are a black Christian you know that for religious reasons the majority believe that homosexuality is a sin, wrong, and we are against it. In my church we are against it and that is how we are taught. That is the majority of African Americans. Check out anti marriage bill in California it went down and the majority of blacks voted against it.However it wasn't the blacks fault that it went down in defeat. That is our faith. Now by saying that in my opinion I support gays and feel they should have the same rights as anyone else. Now with me coming from the music business you can't help but be around gay people. And some of my best friends are gay and I don't mean it as a defense of my religion. I also have lots of my church folks who are my friends that are against gay practice. I can't change them and they are not the type of people who would gay bash people it is just their religious belief. I go by whats in my heart and in my heart all men are created equal whether gay or heterosexual.Same for all women too.
gayness can be more broadly defined as "having sex solely for pleasure", and in this sense everyone that has sex for pleasure, and without consideration for either a spiritual or reproductive element, is gay.
Papabear wrote:Papabear SaysI want to be as real as possible about this. First of all I will start like this. I don't know how many African American are on the forum or should I say African American Christians on this forum and if you are a black Christian you know that for religious reasons the majority believe that homosexuality is a sin, wrong, and we are against it. In my church we are against it and that is how we are taught. That is the majority of African Americans. Check out anti marriage bill in California it went down and the majority of blacks voted against it.However it wasn't the blacks fault that it went down in defeat. That is our faith. Now by saying that in my opinion I support gays and feel they should have the same rights as anyone else. Now with me coming from the music business you can't help but be around gay people. And some of my best friends are gay and I don't mean it as a defense of my religion. I also have lots of my church folks who are my friends that are against gay practice. I can't change them and they are not the type of people who would gay bash people it is just their religious belief. I go by whats in my heart and in my heart all men are created equal whether gay of heterosexual.Same for all women too.
I agree with your message of equality. Note that the California case was about 5 years ago and opinions have rapidly moved on this issue. In a 2013 NBC poll, it was 51-37 in favor of gay marriage among blacks. 59% were in favor in a 2012 ABC poll.
IronWillGiroud wrote:gayness can be more broadly defined as "having sex solely for pleasure", and in this sense everyone that has sex for pleasure, and without consideration for either a spiritual or reproductive element, is gay.
I'm reminded of the Flinstones here. No one uses the term like that anymore.
Bonn1997 wrote:Papabear wrote:Papabear SaysI want to be as real as possible about this. First of all I will start like this. I don't know how many African American are on the forum or should I say African American Christians on this forum and if you are a black Christian you know that for religious reasons the majority believe that homosexuality is a sin, wrong, and we are against it. In my church we are against it and that is how we are taught. That is the majority of African Americans. Check out anti marriage bill in California it went down and the majority of blacks voted against it.However it wasn't the blacks fault that it went down in defeat. That is our faith. Now by saying that in my opinion I support gays and feel they should have the same rights as anyone else. Now with me coming from the music business you can't help but be around gay people. And some of my best friends are gay and I don't mean it as a defense of my religion. I also have lots of my church folks who are my friends that are against gay practice. I can't change them and they are not the type of people who would gay bash people it is just their religious belief. I go by whats in my heart and in my heart all men are created equal whether gay of heterosexual.Same for all women too.
I agree with your message of equality. Note that the California case was about 5 years ago and opinions have rapidly moved on this issue. In a 2013 NBC poll, it was 51-37 in favor of gay marriage among blacks. 59% were in favor in a 2012 ABC poll.
Papabear Says
Bonn1997 I hope you are right.
Bonn1997 wrote:IronWillGiroud wrote:gayness can be more broadly defined as "having sex solely for pleasure", and in this sense everyone that has sex for pleasure, and without consideration for either a spiritual or reproductive element, is gay.
I'm reminded of the Flinstones here. No one uses the term like that anymore.
this is a matter of fashion in the language, you are ignoring the idea presented
Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:VCoug wrote:playa2 wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:playa2 wrote: Grown Insecure men will always feel uncomfortable in a locker room taking showers with gay men because men have big ego's insecurities thinking another man is checking them out.
Fixed that for you.
Being tolerable isn't being secure it just means you are tolerable to be in the shower with a grown ase man who is attracted to other men. Keep that to your self if it's normal for you
Nobody should have to keep their sexuality secret. And bigotry like yours is exactly why this is so important.
Yes, and if a guy feels uncomfortable in locker room, maybe that is his problem, not the gay person's problem. Perhaps he can shower after everyone has left the locker room if he's that terrified.
I never remember having to run around a locker room telling people about what I desire sexually. Why should anyone feel convicted of doing so? I can understand why a gay man would feel uncomfortable in a locker room--but there is nothing he can do about it. An overwhelming majority of men are straight and if you are 1 out of 20--you're just going to have to find ways to deal with it. One smart way is don't ask--don't tell. There is no absolute reason a person has to speak about sexuality. You go in--get dressed play hard--take a shower and go home. And to blindly believe that straight guys have to accept another man who is gay is also naive--they likely won't and they have the RIGHT to be uncomfortable with a gay man in the locker room. There is NOTHING wrong with being a gay person--but don't put that on anyone else's shoulders because they next guy has the RIGHT to be uncomfortable dressing and playing with a gay person.
No double standard though. You shouldn't allow anyone to discuss their heterosexual desires in the locker-room then.
Or you could outlaw all discussions of minority practices (e.g., no mention of religions other than Christianity)I wouldn't endorse either of those options though.
Honest question Bonn. If you *knew* a guy was gay and you were playing basketball with him(or any contact sport) where you were flesh to flesh sweaty--how would you feel. Im being honest when I would say I would not like it--I might not even play. If that makes me a crappy person that so be it. I would treat the person with dignity and respect off the court. On it--I dont feel comfortable going body to body with gay man--thats just me. But if I did not know the person was gay and he was--then play on. I really think dont ask dont tell is the correct position for younger gay men who are involved in sports where there is body to body contact. While understanding the gay person has the right to play--the straight man has the right to say I do not want to play with him. Jason Collin is getting lauded for this at the end of his career--does he make 25mm if he makes this announcement at 22? No way. He did not ask or tell and enjoyed a fine life--my bet.
