Knicks · Indiana won, but the best team didn't win (page 4)
CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:Woodson was the interim guy. He took an 18-24 team and got them to finish 18-6. The guy before was really bad. The Knicks with Tyson, Amare and Melo as their front line were headed toward the lottery and sending a lottery pick to the Rockets. Woodson got them to the playoffs. Not sure how or why you wouldn't give that guy the job. I also don't see how it is cronyism if you replace a guy that resigns. I don't believe that Woodson was the first choice for defensive assistant.loweyecue wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Melo avg 1 ast in this yrs playoffs, this comes at a point in his career when he said.."I'M DONE SCORING A BUNCH OF POINTS"And "THIS THE BEST TALENT I EVER HAD AROUND ME"
Then he goes out wins a scoring title, and avg a career low in assist.
While he claims to have very good talent, we have posters saying, melo has no one to pass the ball to..
he's suppose to be our closer, yet he dissapperd in every forth qtr...got his shot blocked, coughed up 3 turnovers all resulting in pacer pts when the game was on the line..
is this our franchise player ?
That's what I am talking about, this is the team MElo wanted. It had the types of players that would let him dominate the offense along with his buddy JR.
NOW he needs help when he comes up short with a coach who has simply coddled him all season long?you don't trade for players like melo; if you must acquire them it should be only through free agency.
you don't hire coaches like woodson with the playoff record he brought to the table. cronyism in pro sports is not a good idea.
we are going to be circling the drain for a while with this player and this coach.
In regards to trading for Melo, your issue in my opinion is with Walsh and his two star plan/flame out. Walsh wanted Melo and was trying to get him once it became clear that he was going to be moved. The nuggets were trading Melo no matter what the Knicks did. Walsh wanted two stars. Sorry Melo didn't wait to make less money and the Nuggets didn't wait to get nothing for him. However, that was never going to happen.
dolan forced woodson to change agents as a condition for being hired as the knicks coach. woodson complied. not a good sign. in fact that's a bitch move and so far as i am concerned it resonated, and the resonance was the coddling of carmelo anthony. anthony did not improve his defense nor his devotion to a team concept nor did he get into superior conditioning for the playoffs. no way you should be fading in 4th quarters with two point guards out there.
you can keep repeating this nonsense about walsh wanting melo but at the end of the day we are stuck with a fool's gold player and a fool's gold coach-- good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to reach the final 4 and a legit chance at a title.
the clock has been ticking since february 2011 and the knicks had their best shot with a depleted, old roster that was built around carmelo anthony. now improving the team is next to impossible.
rule 1 of fight club: it's never melo's fault.
rule 2 of fight club: it's never melo's fault.
dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:Woodson was the interim guy. He took an 18-24 team and got them to finish 18-6. The guy before was really bad. The Knicks with Tyson, Amare and Melo as their front line were headed toward the lottery and sending a lottery pick to the Rockets. Woodson got them to the playoffs. Not sure how or why you wouldn't give that guy the job. I also don't see how it is cronyism if you replace a guy that resigns. I don't believe that Woodson was the first choice for defensive assistant.loweyecue wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Melo avg 1 ast in this yrs playoffs, this comes at a point in his career when he said.."I'M DONE SCORING A BUNCH OF POINTS"And "THIS THE BEST TALENT I EVER HAD AROUND ME"
Then he goes out wins a scoring title, and avg a career low in assist.
While he claims to have very good talent, we have posters saying, melo has no one to pass the ball to..
he's suppose to be our closer, yet he dissapperd in every forth qtr...got his shot blocked, coughed up 3 turnovers all resulting in pacer pts when the game was on the line..
is this our franchise player ?
That's what I am talking about, this is the team MElo wanted. It had the types of players that would let him dominate the offense along with his buddy JR.
NOW he needs help when he comes up short with a coach who has simply coddled him all season long?you don't trade for players like melo; if you must acquire them it should be only through free agency.
you don't hire coaches like woodson with the playoff record he brought to the table. cronyism in pro sports is not a good idea.
we are going to be circling the drain for a while with this player and this coach.
In regards to trading for Melo, your issue in my opinion is with Walsh and his two star plan/flame out. Walsh wanted Melo and was trying to get him once it became clear that he was going to be moved. The nuggets were trading Melo no matter what the Knicks did. Walsh wanted two stars. Sorry Melo didn't wait to make less money and the Nuggets didn't wait to get nothing for him. However, that was never going to happen.
dolan forced woodson to change agents as a condition for being hired as the knicks coach. woodson complied. not a good sign. in fact that's a bitch move and so far as i am concerned it resonated, and the resonance was the coddling of carmelo anthony. anthony did not improve his defense nor his devotion to a team concept nor did he get into superior conditioning for the playoffs. no way you should be fading in 4th quarters with two point guards out there.
you can keep repeating this nonsense about walsh wanting melo but at the end of the day we are stuck with a fool's gold player and a fool's gold coach-- good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to reach the final 4 and a legit chance at a title.
the clock has been ticking since february 2011 and the knicks had their best shot with a depleted, old roster that was built around carmelo anthony. now improving the team is next to impossible.
rule 1 of fight club: it's never melo's fault.
rule 2 of fight club: it's never melo's fault.
rule 3 of fight club: refer to rules 1 and 2
JesseDark wrote:The best team rarely loses in a 4 out of 7 format. We lost, competive node to the Pacers, now fix whats wrong with our roster.
Rarely is correct, but in this case IT REALLY HAPPENED
Kind of reminds me of the Buffalo Bills vs the NY Giants 1990 Superbowl. Bills coach Marv Levy got out coached by Bill Parcells when the Bills had the best thing going that yr. They let the strategy of a 34 yr old OJ Anderson run over them.
playa2 wrote:JesseDark wrote:The best team rarely loses in a 4 out of 7 format. We lost, competive node to the Pacers, now fix whats wrong with our roster.Rarely is correct, but in this case IT REALLY HAPPENED
Kind of reminds me of the Buffalo Bills vs the NY Giants 1990 Superbowl. Bills coach Marv Levy got out coached by Bill Parcells when the Bills had the best thing going that yr. They let the strategy of a 34 yr old OJ Anderson run over them.
No. We were not the best team.
WE lost in 6 games.
The BIlls might have been favored and the better team during the season but you play head to head, you lose, you are not.
Match up matters.
Injury
Mental toughness.
It may be your belief and thats fine. Want to discuss, thats another story.
Just because nobody can convice does not make for a conclusion.
Lots of things in history got explained in time. Pray to the sun god's the sun returns. Then learn the earth rotates around the sun. Don't have to believe, but thats what happens.
Knicks lost in 6 games. You don't have to believe it, but it happend. What happended? They were a better team.
playa2 wrote:JesseDark wrote:The best team rarely loses in a 4 out of 7 format. We lost, competive node to the Pacers, now fix whats wrong with our roster.Rarely is correct, but in this case IT REALLY HAPPENED
Kind of reminds me of the Buffalo Bills vs the NY Giants 1990 Superbowl. Bills coach Marv Levy got out coached by Bill Parcells when the Bills had the best thing going that yr. They let the strategy of a 34 yr old OJ Anderson run over them.
playa, the knicks were not better than the pacers..
and as far as the bills example go.. maybe the bills were better, the game came down to a FG, this series didn't go 7 games.... and to further validate how good the bills were, they went to the superbowl 4 straight years playa!! so yea, maybe you can make an argument for the bills, but as for the knicks, they were beat by a team that was bigger, faster, younger, stronger, better!
tkf wrote:playa2 wrote:JesseDark wrote:The best team rarely loses in a 4 out of 7 format. We lost, competive node to the Pacers, now fix whats wrong with our roster.Rarely is correct, but in this case IT REALLY HAPPENED
Kind of reminds me of the Buffalo Bills vs the NY Giants 1990 Superbowl. Bills coach Marv Levy got out coached by Bill Parcells when the Bills had the best thing going that yr. They let the strategy of a 34 yr old OJ Anderson run over them.
playa, the knicks were not better than the pacers..
and as far as the bills example go.. maybe the bills were better, the game came down to a FG, this series didn't go 7 games.... and to further validate how good the bills were, they went to the superbowl 4 straight years playa!! so yea, maybe you can make an argument for the bills, but as for the knicks, they were beat by a team that was bigger, faster, younger, stronger, better!
Bills lost them all! They were the 2nd best team. No shame in that.
Best team 4 years in a row in the AFC!!!!!
But not the NFC!
Giants beat the Pats! Pats undefeated all season long! Had the best record, better than giants.
Better team win? Not wearing a ring are they?
The two non knick fans(because of our personnel) TKF and Nalod are the LAST two I would listen to on a matter like this.
Ian Begely of ESPN made it clear what Woodson did was Strange !
Why is that hard to understand, that gave the Pacers an advantage period.
Melo at the four is Woodson’s crutch. Melo has no idea how to play with the big boys. A team with this much talent should have played better under Woodson.
“Honestly, we’re doing it to ourselves,” Chandler said on Sunday. “I watched the tape myself and there are open looks. We have to be willing passers. You have to sacrifice yourself sometimes for the betterment of the team and for the betterment of your teammates. So when you drive in the paint and you draw, you kick it. I think we need to do a better job of allowing the game to dictate who takes the shots and not the individuals….
“I’m not saying anyone is doing it maliciously,” Chandler said on Sunday. “I think it is more so you get into a situation where you want to take over the game or you want to make a big shot where you (should) stick to the game plan. A good team wins basketball games. Unless you’re a great, great, great, great individual … and we only have a few of those come through.”
I’m not even going to bring up how that’s what Bernard King got his twitter shut down for saying (oops, guess I did).
Either we are gonna be honest knick fans or we are going to be in denial.
Look at the teams who are still playing, they move the ball !
"We need some more continuity as far as running something that everybody knows we're in it -- just something with more pace," he said. "We have a lot of dead possessions where we don't really have any cohesiveness. We're just sort of out there and it becomes watching whoever has the ball."
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/44728/shumpert-offense-needs-more-continuity
I support Melo and think we can win with him but the one thing that I cant help but think about is why teams with stagnation and lack of ball movement seem to follow him around.
playa2 wrote:Tyson Chandler, who won a ring with the 2011 Mavericks that team did move the ball well out of Dirk Nowitzki hands by moving the ball. Kidd knows it too !
“Honestly, we’re doing it to ourselves,” Chandler said on Sunday. “I watched the tape myself and there are open looks. We have to be willing passers. You have to sacrifice yourself sometimes for the betterment of the team and for the betterment of your teammates. So when you drive in the paint and you draw, you kick it. I think we need to do a better job of allowing the game to dictate who takes the shots and not the individuals….“I’m not saying anyone is doing it maliciously,” Chandler said on Sunday. “I think it is more so you get into a situation where you want to take over the game or you want to make a big shot where you (should) stick to the game plan. A good team wins basketball games. Unless you’re a great, great, great, great individual … and we only have a few of those come through.”
I’m not even going to bring up how that’s what Bernard King got his twitter shut down for saying (oops, guess I did).
Either we are gonna be honest knick fans or we are going to be in denial.
Look at the teams who are still playing, they move the ball !
U are in denial if u didn't think Indy was the better team...Tyson is in denial if you hasn't come to terms with his role in this loss..
Out of all our aged players I think Rasheed would've been the differnce maker in this series. Sigh!
JesseDark wrote:We lost and have to deal with it. Repeat slowly, we lost to a better team, period. We have to find a better mix of vets young capable young players that the coach will trust to play. I know all coaches hae their favorite kike Riley with Starks over Rolando in '94. This year Copeland is the player who should've received more burn.
Out of all our aged players I think Rasheed would've been the differnce maker in this series. Sigh!
So are you saying if Rolando (automatic) Blackmon was inserted into the 94 finals game 7 we may have won ?
That's all I'm saying about Copeland Playing from game 1 to game 6, our coach didn't believe what he saw in garbage time from the rookie from the euro league could help us win games against the fluky pacers.Lance Stephenson and Hill had career games, why couldn't we allow Copeland to do the same. Because Mike Woodson didn't allow him to bust up the Pacers with his accurate shooting.
Would love to hear what Copeland says off the record about him not playing much in the Pacer series.
Also would love to hear what Camby had to say off the record about not playing in the pacer series when our front court was being destroyed. Funny they beat us on the boards easily , but didn't win the games handily outside of game 1
playa2 wrote:The Knicks just didn't play better than the Pacers in 6 games, and I partly blame Woodson for not utilizing what would have made the Pacers sweat a lil more.The two non knick fans(because of our personnel) TKF and Nalod are the LAST two I would listen to on a matter like this.
Ian Begely of ESPN made it clear what Woodson did was Strange !Why is that hard to understand, that gave the Pacers an advantage period.
Melo at the four is Woodson’s crutch. Melo has no idea how to play with the big boys. A team with this much talent should have played better under Woodson.
you are just underestimating the pacers and frank vogel. first off, they did not need to double which is a sign of an elite team. what does that mean with the knicks? it means that if you don't move the ball, move without the ball, and don't make plays off of dribble drives then you are going nowhere. knicks have always had a problem moving the ball.
two main culprits here are felton and anthony. add smith too. all three flat out SUCK at this part of the game. none can make a play off dribble drives consistently to keep the collapsing lane defense guessing. all try to finish when they are within 8-10 feet of the basket. all commit to the air once they are in the lane. they are either trying to draw fouls or trying to score. melo and smith NEVER make plays off of dribble drives. NEVER. fetlon only rarely which is why he is NOT a point guard. vogel sees this and licks his chops. this plays right into the pacers hands. any elite defense in fact.
woodson is not an elite coach but you can't expect him to teach these three knuckleheads to learn footwork and genuine ball-handling skills with the head up overnight.
dk7th wrote:playa2 wrote:The Knicks just didn't play better than the Pacers in 6 games, and I partly blame Woodson for not utilizing what would have made the Pacers sweat a lil more.The two non knick fans(because of our personnel) TKF and Nalod are the LAST two I would listen to on a matter like this.
Ian Begely of ESPN made it clear what Woodson did was Strange !Why is that hard to understand, that gave the Pacers an advantage period.
Melo at the four is Woodson’s crutch. Melo has no idea how to play with the big boys. A team with this much talent should have played better under Woodson.
you are just underestimating the pacers and frank vogel. first off, they did not need to double which is a sign of an elite team. what does that mean with the knicks? it means that if you don't move the ball, move without the ball, and don't make plays off of dribble drives then you are going nowhere. knicks have always had a problem moving the ball.
two main culprits here are felton and anthony. add smith too. all three flat out SUCK at this part of the game. none can make a play off dribble drives consistently to keep the collapsing lane defense guessing. all try to finish when they are within 8-10 feet of the basket. all commit to the air once they are in the lane. they are either trying to draw fouls or trying to score. melo and smith NEVER make plays off of dribble drives. NEVER. fetlon only rarely which is why he is NOT a point guard. vogel sees this and licks his chops. this plays right into the pacers hands. any elite defense in fact.
woodson is not an elite coach but you can't expect him to teach these three knuckleheads to learn footwork and genuine ball-handling skills with the head up overnight.
Huh, they didn't double because that was their game plan, let Melo get his and try and freeze everybody else out, so when Melo gets tired in the 4th qtr other players on the team will be nervous to step up and take a shot.
This strategy was so easy playing against the knicks, ball movement would have screwed up the pacers defensive strategy in this series , game two proved it. Watch what the Heat do to them with ball movement.
We finished 4.5 games ahead of them in the standings for a reason...
Still you gotta give the Pacers credit. They threw us of our game and totally realized that Tyson wasn't really on his game and they just pounded us inside.
VDesai wrote:I don't think we ever truly played our game. We spent a lot of wasted time trying to match up with the Pacers, but I think we needed to have them adapt to us...but we didn't play our shooters for several games!We finished 4.5 games ahead of them in the standings for a reason...
Still you gotta give the Pacers credit. They threw us of our game and totally realized that Tyson wasn't really on his game and they just pounded us inside.
VDesai, that's my point and some posters don't get it. I'm not taking credit from the Pacers all I'm saying is the better team didn't win.
We didn't play the right people , that's the only reason why the Pacers won the series period.
So Mike Woodson is the one to partially blame here, he controls this aspect of the game, not the players.
knicks1248 wrote:what series did you watch? Cause I just saw Felton, Melo and Shump outplayed by the three guys you think are "better"AnubisADL wrote:playa2 wrote:We had the better players and more experienced players , they weren't inserted into the game when we needed them the most.Then on the other hand he played guys who gave us nothing more minutes than they deserved.
Who are these players?
felton is better then hill
melo is better then paul G
shump is better then lance
amare when healthy IS BETTER THEN west
prigs is better then DJ
cope is better then mihimini (what ever his name is)
Vogel is better then woodson, and he prepared his team more, and got them to play smarter through preparation..
OUR biggest advantage was our bench, and we failed to use it
I guess wins and losses no longer count
The better team won the series.
We did not execute. If we got out coached we were by a better team. Better team, better coach.
If you believe we were the better team, thats your opinion. I got mine. Im a Knick fan and I can be objective about our team. Thats my position. You don't have to understand it, but if you invite me to discuss it in a forum you should respect it. you want to go in the gutter and name call I'll follow you in, but thats a waste of time and nobody wants to read bickering.