“I think that we have a lot of bad possessions where we don’t really have any cohesiveness. ... We’re just sorta out there, and it becomes watching whoever has the ball,” Shumpert said. “You can’t do that.”
I think we all had some frustrated moments yelling at the TV during the season and the playoffs where it looks like the team is doing this. I for sure have yelled at my TV as the shot clock ticks down "What are we DOING on offense? Why is everyone standing around?!"
The PG is supposed to run the offense and make sure that possessions are cohesive.
The issue might just be that we don't really have a starting caliber PG on our roster. We have 3 PGs that are all good at different things.
Felton is the best at getting into the paint, the quickest, coming off screens and popping that midrange J. He's not terrible on defense. But he doesn't really command respect as a floor general, has an inconsistent outside shot, and gets flustered if he feels calls aren't going our way.
Kidd has super high basketball IQ and always stays calm but he's running on fumes at this point and it's hard to lead when you can't stay on the court because you're J has completely abandoned you. He rarely looks to take it to the hole and it's sad watching him whiff on wide open layups.
Prigioni is unselfish as hell. I feel like when he's on the floor he actually tries to make the team y'know..play together instead off just taking turns going one on one. Best outside shooter of the bunch, hardnosed defender but again nowhere near as aggressive as a standard NBA PG is in terms of getting into the paint, etc.
If you merged all three of these guys into one player they'd be a starting caliber PG. Can you win or even contend for a championship with your critical floor general position looking like this?
Miami did it with Chalmers but Lebron is running the show and their talent level elsewhere was ridiculous.
The Lakers did it but the triangle doesn't need an elite PG to work and again the talent of the Kobe/Shaq squads and the Kobe/Pau/Bynum/Odom teams were clearly elite.
The only other teams I can remember that won chips and had giant ?s at PG were Boston with Rondo and the Spurs with Tony Parker and both of those guys ended up being elite PGs who just needed time.
can this go into the other Shump thread?
Knicks dont have a PG. Felton is a SG in a PG's body.
This is why Kidd played heavy minutes even when he couldn't buy a basket.
AnubisADL wrote:Knicks dont have a PG. Felton is a SG in a PG's body.This is why Kidd played heavy minutes even when he couldn't buy a basket.
Kidd isn't a pg anymore and was beyond awful in that role. Hopefully he will be a 10-15 min. SG.
yellowboy90 wrote:can this go into the other Shump thread?
Well this thread is just basically about whether it's realistic to win a championship in today's league without a legit floor general type.
Given the fact that we're capped out, paying Kidd and Felton for the of the Melo era, and (i think wisely) spending $ on either keeping Cope, JR or both to surround Melo with 3 pt shooters..unless we get super lucky in the draft or do a Cope sign and trade..I don't see how we get any better at PG.
Perhaps continuity is all it takes and the team will move the ball better and play more together with another full camp and season together with each other and Woody?
I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
TeamBall wrote:I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
Dunno if anyone else remembers this but after Cope got hot in Game 6 and we were tied or maybe up a point we bring the ball up the court.
You can see Cope about to do run to his spot and then the announcer says
Woodson telling ______ to get the ball to Melo
You can actually see Cope get frustrated and literally throw his hands up and then jog over to join everyone else so we can iso Melo on one side of the floor.
Melo ended up turning the ball over on that possession I think but it's not the result that I hate.
It's that instinct that Woody and Melo have in tight moments to simply abandon any type of offensive principles, system and just do the predictable iso thing.
Melo is by far our best offensive player and the ball should touch his hands every possession but if we're laying TEAM BALL then the ball will eventually hit Melo's hands...perhaps with the opposing defense scrambling from having to cover the other 4 guys vs. with everyone just waiting to shut Melo down when he beats his man.
Kind of defies the whole beauty of basketball to do this. Makes me sad.
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:TeamBall wrote:I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
Dunno if anyone else remembers this but after Cope got hot in Game 6 and we were tied or maybe up a point we bring the ball up the court.
You can see Cope about to do run to his spot and then the announcer says
Woodson telling ______ to get the ball to Melo
You can actually see Cope get frustrated and literally throw his hands up and then jog over to join everyone else so we can iso Melo on one side of the floor.
Melo ended up turning the ball over on that possession I think but it's not the result that I hate.
It's that instinct that Woody and Melo have in tight moments to simply abandon any type of offensive principles, system and just do the predictable iso thing.
Melo is by far our best offensive player and the ball should touch his hands every possession but if we're laying TEAM BALL then the ball will eventually hit Melo's hands...perhaps with the opposing defense scrambling from having to cover the other 4 guys vs. with everyone just waiting to shut Melo down when he beats his man.
Kind of defies the whole beauty of basketball to do this. Makes me sad.
EXACTLY how I felt when I heard the announcer say that. I 100% agree. The philosophy has to change to something more team oriented for sure. It makes everyones job easier and speaking as a fan its more fun to watch.
...........does this revalation exonerate MDA from his MeloSins?
combined with Linsanity?
Game 6 "IsoMelo" was his moment to convert the Somber to the Moobyites we all want to be!
I want to believe!
So now we fans are blaming those around Melo and the coach?
Somewhere George Karl is over his first round bounch and shaking his head!
Nalod wrote:...........does this revalation exonerate MDA from his MeloSins?combined with Linsanity?
Game 6 "IsoMelo" was his moment to convert the Somber to the Moobyites we all want to be!
I want to believe!
So now we fans are blaming those around Melo and the coach?
Somewhere George Karl is over his first round bounch and shaking his head!
No, D'antoni still sucks.
I like woodson. Liked MDA. I liked Larry. I liked Wilkens, I liked Chaney and JVG.
Seems to me its the Roster.
Team: Players, Coaches, Exec and owner!
Nalod wrote:
I like woodson. Liked MDA. I liked Larry. I liked Wilkens, I liked Chaney and JVG.Seems to me its the Roster.
Team: Players, Coaches, Exec and owner!
I pretty much agree. I just dont like D'antoni. I dont know what you're trying to imply exactly.
TeamBall wrote:Nalod wrote:
I like woodson. Liked MDA. I liked Larry. I liked Wilkens, I liked Chaney and JVG.Seems to me its the Roster.
Team: Players, Coaches, Exec and owner!
I pretty much agree. I just dont like D'antoni. I dont know what you're trying to imply exactly.
Seems like we as fans dump on the coach for the failure's.
Woody been taking his lumps of late.
Just sounds familiar.
Nalod wrote:TeamBall wrote:Nalod wrote:
I like woodson. Liked MDA. I liked Larry. I liked Wilkens, I liked Chaney and JVG.Seems to me its the Roster.
Team: Players, Coaches, Exec and owner!
I pretty much agree. I just dont like D'antoni. I dont know what you're trying to imply exactly.
Seems like we as fans dump on the coach for the failure's.
Woody been taking his lumps of late.
Just sounds familiar.
I dont blame it all on Woodson though. Just what youve seen me say in this thread. Ive gotten on other players in other threads (yes, including Melo) because I dont think its all on one person. I was specifically talking about how I interpreted Shumps quote.
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:TeamBall wrote:I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
Dunno if anyone else remembers this but after Cope got hot in Game 6 and we were tied or maybe up a point we bring the ball up the court.
You can see Cope about to do run to his spot and then the announcer says
Woodson telling ______ to get the ball to Melo
You can actually see Cope get frustrated and literally throw his hands up and then jog over to join everyone else so we can iso Melo on one side of the floor.
Melo ended up turning the ball over on that possession I think but it's not the result that I hate.
It's that instinct that Woody and Melo have in tight moments to simply abandon any type of offensive principles, system and just do the predictable iso thing.
Melo is by far our best offensive player and the ball should touch his hands every possession but if we're laying TEAM BALL then the ball will eventually hit Melo's hands...perhaps with the opposing defense scrambling from having to cover the other 4 guys vs. with everyone just waiting to shut Melo down when he beats his man.
Kind of defies the whole beauty of basketball to do this. Makes me sad.
PRETTY much what Dantoni said...
It was familiar D’Antoni, breaking out the classics like “the ball finds energy” for why he does not call plays or care for players asking for touches.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/20121115mike-dantoni-starts-job-new-knowing-whats-expected.html
tkf wrote:GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:TeamBall wrote:I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
Dunno if anyone else remembers this but after Cope got hot in Game 6 and we were tied or maybe up a point we bring the ball up the court.
You can see Cope about to do run to his spot and then the announcer says
Woodson telling ______ to get the ball to Melo
You can actually see Cope get frustrated and literally throw his hands up and then jog over to join everyone else so we can iso Melo on one side of the floor.
Melo ended up turning the ball over on that possession I think but it's not the result that I hate.
It's that instinct that Woody and Melo have in tight moments to simply abandon any type of offensive principles, system and just do the predictable iso thing.
Melo is by far our best offensive player and the ball should touch his hands every possession but if we're laying TEAM BALL then the ball will eventually hit Melo's hands...perhaps with the opposing defense scrambling from having to cover the other 4 guys vs. with everyone just waiting to shut Melo down when he beats his man.
Kind of defies the whole beauty of basketball to do this. Makes me sad.
PRETTY much what Dantoni said...
It was familiar D’Antoni, breaking out the classics like “the ball finds energy” for why he does not call plays or care for players asking for touches.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/20121115mike-dantoni-starts-job-new-knowing-whats-expected.html
Indeed, also SOMETHING LIN actually did with less talent that Melo was unable to do by getting his team mates better
I am not saying Lin is an ALL STAR caliber player, I am saying he understood how to attack as a team, while the other plays knew how to play off his penetration OFF THE BALL
The style of play in Houston is often similar to Woodson's offense, watch Harden go to work and stand still which will not work vs strong playoff contenders
There has to be a mixture of player movement/ball movement/picks on and off the ball for depeption/counters
Harden must learn to be effective OFF THE BALL and to simply earn a step with his ability to draw defender off penetration and trust his team mates
Lin also just did not have the confidence/crowd during his run in NYK, in addition to the tape on his weakness's this year
We could have used his ability to penetrate to initiate our offense, especially with Copeland, and that style of play that grew in to "Linsanity"
I would have been useful to have Lin on our bench vs Pacer's instead of Kidd, Novak, Camby *who make much more combined... end of story
I don't know. Cope stepped up and played big but the guy is still a rookie. Melo is the guy you want to take the shot most times on this time. Listen to JVG when Breen starts his anti-Melo shenanigans. The rest of the team for the most part couldn't hit any shots. Nice that Shump had a great game 6 but he was missing shots in games 4 and 5. Felton did pretty well in the series but couldn't hit a shot in game 6. Tyson struggled with put backs, dunks and holding onto the ball. Kidd couldn't even make a lay up. Prigs shot was gone and JR couldn't do anything after his suspension. When the rest of the team shoots 28% going to a guy that is hitting at 50% on that night and is your star has some merit.
TeamBall wrote:I thought was equally a shot at Woody along with the rest of the team. Your coach should notice the stagnation and put an end to it but it kept occurring for us over and over again.
When Woodson had to change his agent before he came to the Knicks ,that told you something right there. He saw everything we saw, but he wants to stay employed and ownership has to have his back , but the consequences is he can have a divided locker room.
Nalod wrote:TeamBall wrote:Nalod wrote:
I like woodson. Liked MDA. I liked Larry. I liked Wilkens, I liked Chaney and JVG.Seems to me its the Roster.
Team: Players, Coaches, Exec and owner!
I pretty much agree. I just dont like D'antoni. I dont know what you're trying to imply exactly.
Seems like we as fans dump on the coach for the failure's.
Woody been taking his lumps of late.
Just sounds familiar.
I actually liked MDA. People took him to task for failing to communicate with his players and I think they had a right to.
I like Woodson. It seems like the players want to play hard for him. He got JR to play the best ball of his career. He holds people accountable for defending.
I hope he evolves as a coach. I hope the team evolves. I hope Melo evolves so that we don't see another playoff game where all of them collectively come to the conclusion that our only hope of winning a series against a legit team is
Have Melo wave off everyone and go iso for multiple possessions in a row like we saw in that Celtics series and at the end of game 6.
There has to be a better way to get buckets. There has to be a better way of getting Melo the ball in a position to score without having to work so damn hard.
That's all I'm saying.
CrushAlot wrote:I don't know. Cope stepped up and played big but the guy is still a rookie. Melo is the guy you want to take the shot most times on this time. Listen to JVG when Breen starts his anti-Melo shenanigans. The rest of the team for the most part couldn't hit any shots. Nice that Shump had a great game 6 but he was missing shots in games 4 and 5. Felton did pretty well in the series but couldn't hit a shot in game 6. Tyson struggled with put backs, dunks and holding onto the ball. Kidd couldn't even make a lay up. Prigs shot was gone and JR couldn't do anything after his suspension. When the rest of the team shoots 28% going to a guy that is hitting at 50% on that night and is your star has some merit.
Again no problem with Melo taking the big shots down the stretch but there has to be a more creative way to get him the ball then just having him start out at the top of the key.
I'd like to see the other guys running something off the ball when Melo has it: downscreens for shooters, cross screens under the basket, ANYTHING so that
a) other defenders have to focus on defending..not just helping on Melo
b) if Melo does his thing and can't get a good look he has an option other than just forcing a shot up or trying to pass to a teammate standing still and a defender ready to leap into that passing lane
Even when we're running say a pick and roll with Felton and Chandler, there should be someone screening for Melo off the ball so that Felton or Chandler can go to that if the pick and roll doesn't produce an easy look.
There's something to be said for continuity so I don't think we need to fire woody or blow up the team for us to have more varied offensive attack that uses misdirection, movement, etc to make our offense less predictable.
