Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:NardDogNation wrote:tkf wrote:Caseloads wrote:tkf wrote:I like shumpert a lot.. but he is nothing like paul george...or in that class.. may never be...
Paul George is stinking it up this game. And is not coming off an ACL injury. Shumpert we TRUST
do you realize how ridiculous it is to point to one game to try to prove your point.. Ok, so what about games one and two? should we say shumpert will be the next paul george every time he has a bad game? come on man.. HE is nothing like paul george, doesn't have the game, height or length.. and shumpert can't help this... and coming off an ACL injury is irrelevant...really why must knick fans grab hold to something, blow it through the roof and try to justify it at all cost? It is ok if shumpert won't be as good as paul George, not many players in the league will be very soon...
Do you know how ridiculous it is to point to a playoff series to anoint a player as being better than a 9 year vet who eclipsed him in nearly every relevant metric?
if you were ever around and paid attention instead of these silly drive by post you would realize that I said this well before the series started, at the beginning of the season.... Time in the league has nothing to do with who is better now.... Paul George is a better player right NOW!!
Only anti Melo fans will believe that. Like I said, take Melo off our team and replace him with George and we don't win 54 games and get to the 2nd round, simple as that. We would be a 43-45- win team. George is a great up and coming player but stop overrating him.
We could speculate endlessly on what would happen in different fictional scenarios. It looks to me though like you're paying attention only to the PPG difference between Melo and George. You're not factoring in that our defense would be better, our rebounding would be better, and our teammates performance would be better since George gets more assists and fewer turnovers.
George shuts down his opponent (well maybe not when it's Lebron). Per 100 possessions, his opponent scores almost ten less points than Melo's does.
Actually teammates performance would be much better with Melo because teams actually double him and design a defense to stop him. Melo is a main reason we were such a good 3-point shooting team this season. Stop looking at Melo's scoring alone and consider how he impacts the game by how opponents defend him.
That's your theory, not evidence. Melo might help the teammates' 3 point shooting but you still have to factor in how many more points he gives up. We can list some factors that are Pro-Melo and some that are Pro-George. The point is you keep repeating the Pro-Melo ones without acknowledging the Pro-George ones, let alone even trying to weigh the two sets of factors.
Pro-Melo
-More PPG
-Slightly more efficient scoring
-Perhaps better teammate 3 point shooting
Pro-George
-Much better man-to-man defense
-More rebounds
-More assists
-More steals
-Fewer turnovers
I'm not saying Melo is worse than George. The advanced stats don't offer any decisive evaluation - it depends on which ones you look at. I'd call it a draw.
Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:NardDogNation wrote:tkf wrote:Caseloads wrote:tkf wrote:I like shumpert a lot.. but he is nothing like paul george...or in that class.. may never be...
Paul George is stinking it up this game. And is not coming off an ACL injury. Shumpert we TRUST
do you realize how ridiculous it is to point to one game to try to prove your point.. Ok, so what about games one and two? should we say shumpert will be the next paul george every time he has a bad game? come on man.. HE is nothing like paul george, doesn't have the game, height or length.. and shumpert can't help this... and coming off an ACL injury is irrelevant...really why must knick fans grab hold to something, blow it through the roof and try to justify it at all cost? It is ok if shumpert won't be as good as paul George, not many players in the league will be very soon...
Do you know how ridiculous it is to point to a playoff series to anoint a player as being better than a 9 year vet who eclipsed him in nearly every relevant metric?
if you were ever around and paid attention instead of these silly drive by post you would realize that I said this well before the series started, at the beginning of the season.... Time in the league has nothing to do with who is better now.... Paul George is a better player right NOW!!
Only anti Melo fans will believe that. Like I said, take Melo off our team and replace him with George and we don't win 54 games and get to the 2nd round, simple as that. We would be a 43-45- win team. George is a great up and coming player but stop overrating him.
We could speculate endlessly on what would happen in different fictional scenarios. It looks to me though like you're paying attention only to the PPG difference between Melo and George. You're not factoring in that our defense would be better, our rebounding would be better, and our teammates performance would be better since George gets more assists and fewer turnovers.
George shuts down his opponent (well maybe not when it's Lebron). Per 100 possessions, his opponent scores almost ten less points than Melo's does.
Actually teammates performance would be much better with Melo because teams actually double him and design a defense to stop him. Melo is a main reason we were such a good 3-point shooting team this season. Stop looking at Melo's scoring alone and consider how he impacts the game by how opponents defend him.
That's your theory, not evidence. Melo might help the teammates' 3 point shooting but you still have to factor in how many more points he gives up. We can list some factors that are Pro-Melo and some that are Pro-George. The point is you keep repeating the Pro-Melo ones without acknowledging the Pro-George ones, let alone even trying to weigh the two sets of factors. Pro-Melo
-More PPG
-Slightly more efficient scoring
-Perhaps better teammate 3 point shooting
Pro-George
-Much better man-to-man defense
-More rebounds
-More assists
-More steals
-Fewer turnovers
I'm not saying Melo is worse than George. The advanced stats don't offer any decisive evaluation - it depends on which ones you look at. I'd call it a draw.
Gotta take the turnovers off PG, he gets a ton of them, and the rebounding is relatively even.
neither player is an efficient scorer, so that shouldn't be a melo advantage.
knickscity wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:NardDogNation wrote:tkf wrote:Caseloads wrote:tkf wrote:I like shumpert a lot.. but he is nothing like paul george...or in that class.. may never be...
Paul George is stinking it up this game. And is not coming off an ACL injury. Shumpert we TRUST
do you realize how ridiculous it is to point to one game to try to prove your point.. Ok, so what about games one and two? should we say shumpert will be the next paul george every time he has a bad game? come on man.. HE is nothing like paul george, doesn't have the game, height or length.. and shumpert can't help this... and coming off an ACL injury is irrelevant...really why must knick fans grab hold to something, blow it through the roof and try to justify it at all cost? It is ok if shumpert won't be as good as paul George, not many players in the league will be very soon...
Do you know how ridiculous it is to point to a playoff series to anoint a player as being better than a 9 year vet who eclipsed him in nearly every relevant metric?
if you were ever around and paid attention instead of these silly drive by post you would realize that I said this well before the series started, at the beginning of the season.... Time in the league has nothing to do with who is better now.... Paul George is a better player right NOW!!
Only anti Melo fans will believe that. Like I said, take Melo off our team and replace him with George and we don't win 54 games and get to the 2nd round, simple as that. We would be a 43-45- win team. George is a great up and coming player but stop overrating him.
We could speculate endlessly on what would happen in different fictional scenarios. It looks to me though like you're paying attention only to the PPG difference between Melo and George. You're not factoring in that our defense would be better, our rebounding would be better, and our teammates performance would be better since George gets more assists and fewer turnovers.
George shuts down his opponent (well maybe not when it's Lebron). Per 100 possessions, his opponent scores almost ten less points than Melo's does.
Actually teammates performance would be much better with Melo because teams actually double him and design a defense to stop him. Melo is a main reason we were such a good 3-point shooting team this season. Stop looking at Melo's scoring alone and consider how he impacts the game by how opponents defend him.
That's your theory, not evidence. Melo might help the teammates' 3 point shooting but you still have to factor in how many more points he gives up. We can list some factors that are Pro-Melo and some that are Pro-George. The point is you keep repeating the Pro-Melo ones without acknowledging the Pro-George ones, let alone even trying to weigh the two sets of factors. Pro-Melo
-More PPG
-Slightly more efficient scoring
-Perhaps better teammate 3 point shooting
Pro-George
-Much better man-to-man defense
-More rebounds
-More assists
-More steals
-Fewer turnovers
I'm not saying Melo is worse than George. The advanced stats don't offer any decisive evaluation - it depends on which ones you look at. I'd call it a draw.
Gotta take the turnovers off PG, he gets a ton of them, and the rebounding is relatively even.neither player is an efficient scorer, so that shouldn't be a melo advantage.
What #s are you looking at? I hope not just a couple of post-season games. If you look at a reasonably large sample, all the pros and cons I put up are accurate.
Look at the #s on 82games.com for rebounding. At SF, Melo was outrebounded by his opponent by 1.4 boards per 48 min and at PF by 1.3. In contrast, George outrebounded his opponent at SF by 2.9 rbs per 48 min.
How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
yellowboy90 wrote:How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
331. That's not a lot of minutes and I don't know how stable the #s are. The point is that you can't actually find any stats from last year that
support the notion that he and George are equal in rebounding for their positions.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
331. That's not a lot of minutes and I don't know how stable the #s are. The point is that you can't actually find any stats from last year that support the notion that he and George are equal in rebounding for their positions.
Now you know of all posters that those numbers are to small of a sample size. I am surprised by you. Shame on you Bonn.
Also, have you tried NBAwowy?
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
331. That's not a lot of minutes and I don't know how stable the #s are. The point is that you can't actually find any stats from last year that support the notion that he and George are equal in rebounding for their positions.
Now you know of all posters that those numbers are to small of a sample size. I am surprised by you. Shame on you Bonn.
It depends on what the claim is - if the claim is that he's a bad rebounder at SF, then it's too small a sample but that wasn't my claim. My claim was simply that no data from last year exists to support the notion that he rebounds as well as George. I was taking the extra, unnecessary step to show that even if you look at the few minutes at SF he played, it doesn't change the verdict.
yellowboy90 wrote:Also, have you tried NBAwowy?
Thanks. That's definitely interesting. The site seems to be calculating TS% differently than most do. The #s are lower than on other sites.
shump is a solid player but george is a superstar in the making.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
331. That's not a lot of minutes and I don't know how stable the #s are. The point is that you can't actually find any stats from last year that support the notion that he and George are equal in rebounding for their positions.
Now you know of all posters that those numbers are to small of a sample size. I am surprised by you. Shame on you Bonn.
It depends on what the claim is - if the claim is that he's a bad rebounder at SF, then it's too small a sample but that wasn't my claim. My claim was simply that no data from last year exists to support the notion that he rebounds as well as George. I was taking the extra, unnecessary step to show that even if you look at the few minutes at SF he played, it doesn't change the verdict.
No data exist that he rebounds as well as George this year or overall? One season with 7.4 does not mean he will continue to avg that. I really do not understand this debate. DId George out rebound Melo this year, yes. Is he a better rebounder? Also, how many small forwards actually move to PF and total enough minutes to gain a valid sample size to tell that they rebound more at that position. That's a serious question.
knickscity wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:NardDogNation wrote:tkf wrote:Caseloads wrote:tkf wrote:I like shumpert a lot.. but he is nothing like paul george...or in that class.. may never be...
Paul George is stinking it up this game. And is not coming off an ACL injury. Shumpert we TRUST
do you realize how ridiculous it is to point to one game to try to prove your point.. Ok, so what about games one and two? should we say shumpert will be the next paul george every time he has a bad game? come on man.. HE is nothing like paul george, doesn't have the game, height or length.. and shumpert can't help this... and coming off an ACL injury is irrelevant...really why must knick fans grab hold to something, blow it through the roof and try to justify it at all cost? It is ok if shumpert won't be as good as paul George, not many players in the league will be very soon...
Do you know how ridiculous it is to point to a playoff series to anoint a player as being better than a 9 year vet who eclipsed him in nearly every relevant metric?
if you were ever around and paid attention instead of these silly drive by post you would realize that I said this well before the series started, at the beginning of the season.... Time in the league has nothing to do with who is better now.... Paul George is a better player right NOW!!
Only anti Melo fans will believe that. Like I said, take Melo off our team and replace him with George and we don't win 54 games and get to the 2nd round, simple as that. We would be a 43-45- win team. George is a great up and coming player but stop overrating him.
We could speculate endlessly on what would happen in different fictional scenarios. It looks to me though like you're paying attention only to the PPG difference between Melo and George. You're not factoring in that our defense would be better, our rebounding would be better, and our teammates performance would be better since George gets more assists and fewer turnovers.
George shuts down his opponent (well maybe not when it's Lebron). Per 100 possessions, his opponent scores almost ten less points than Melo's does.
Actually teammates performance would be much better with Melo because teams actually double him and design a defense to stop him. Melo is a main reason we were such a good 3-point shooting team this season. Stop looking at Melo's scoring alone and consider how he impacts the game by how opponents defend him.
That's your theory, not evidence. Melo might help the teammates' 3 point shooting but you still have to factor in how many more points he gives up. We can list some factors that are Pro-Melo and some that are Pro-George. The point is you keep repeating the Pro-Melo ones without acknowledging the Pro-George ones, let alone even trying to weigh the two sets of factors. Pro-Melo
-More PPG
-Slightly more efficient scoring
-Perhaps better teammate 3 point shooting
Pro-George
-Much better man-to-man defense
-More rebounds
-More assists
-More steals
-Fewer turnovers
I'm not saying Melo is worse than George. The advanced stats don't offer any decisive evaluation - it depends on which ones you look at. I'd call it a draw.
Gotta take the turnovers off PG, he gets a ton of them, and the rebounding is relatively even.neither player is an efficient scorer, so that shouldn't be a melo advantage.
Regarding your final sentence (which I must have overlooked), Melo's TS% was about 30 points (.030) higher than George's. It could be that I'm just too generous towards Melo
but I give him some credit there. If you look at career #s (regular and/or post-season), the advantage for Melo disappears in that category. I was basically going out of my way to try to find something to give Melo.
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:How many minutes did he play at the 3 this year?
331. That's not a lot of minutes and I don't know how stable the #s are. The point is that you can't actually find any stats from last year that support the notion that he and George are equal in rebounding for their positions.
Now you know of all posters that those numbers are to small of a sample size. I am surprised by you. Shame on you Bonn.
It depends on what the claim is - if the claim is that he's a bad rebounder at SF, then it's too small a sample but that wasn't my claim. My claim was simply that no data from last year exists to support the notion that he rebounds as well as George. I was taking the extra, unnecessary step to show that even if you look at the few minutes at SF he played, it doesn't change the verdict.
No data exist that he rebounds as well as George this year or overall? One season with 7.4 does not mean he will continue to avg that.
Of course, we can talk only about data that currently exist. A boulder could fall on George and he never plays another game - hopefully that doesn't happen! But all we can do is look at existing data.
DId George out rebound Melo this year, yes.
OK, we might not be as far apart as I thought.
Also, how many small forwards actually move to PF and total enough minutes to gain a valid sample size to tell that they rebound more at that position. That's a serious question.
It's hard to say. Most SFs can't move to PF since they're not as big as Melo. People use this as an excuse but Melo is built like a PF and should be able to play the position. He gives up only about an inch in height and nothing in terms of weight or muscle each night. I'd never use it as an excuse if the man I was guarding was an inch taller than me. (To his credit, Melo hasn't used it as an excuse. Just his supporters have.)
Melo is not a PF...He is not built like a PF..Use the example of D West abusing him on the block..He was also abused against Memphis...he is a SF..His game is that of a SF..He lives on the perimeter and can penetrate..U kill me Bonn...Most PF can guard centers, Melo can't ...
He's built like a PF - a strong 6'8", 240. He plays like an SF. Lebron is the only other SF with a body as strong (or actually stronger) than Melo's.
6-8 for the most part is the low end for a PF and in most cases is considered undersized, and melo is not listed as 240 on most sites....he's 230.
It has nothing to do with height and weight...It's the game you play...Its how u use your strength and size along with your game..Gallo is a SF...Barkley is a PF..Arron McKey is a SF at 6'10".Dale Davis is a PF 6' 8/9"..Xavier McDaniel is a SF..Hakeem is a center..Bill Russell at 6'9" is a center..Magic is a PG..Bron is a SF..
holfresh wrote:It has nothing to do with height and weight...It's the game you play...Its how u use your strength and size along with your game..Gallo is a SF...Barkley is a PF..Arron McKey is a SF at 6'10".Dale Davis is a PF 6' 8/9"..Xavier McDaniel is a SF..Hakeem is a center..Bill Russell at 6'9" is a center..Magic is a PG..
I'm actually disputing melo has the PF body, his game actually does resemble a pf when he actually uses it.
knickscity wrote:holfresh wrote:It has nothing to do with height and weight...It's the game you play...Its how u use your strength and size along with your game..Gallo is a SF...Barkley is a PF..Arron McKey is a SF at 6'10".Dale Davis is a PF 6' 8/9"..Xavier McDaniel is a SF..Hakeem is a center..Bill Russell at 6'9" is a center..Magic is a PG..
I'm actually disputing melo has the PF body, his game actually does resemble a pf when he actually uses it.
How so?..Bron is bigger and he is a SF..Goes to the hole with more power..still a SF..
knickscity wrote:6-8 for the most part is the low end for a PF and in most cases is considered undersized, and melo is not listed as 240 on most sites....he's 230.
It's also the high end of SF. You don't seriously think he's built more like guys like Shane Battier, Jared Dudley, etc.
At the very least, he's in between and should be held to the standards of whichever position he plays. It's not like the expectations are lower at SF anyway - they're just different. I'd expect more steals and deflections if he's given that assignment.
It's has nothing to do with your build..
