I just watched some footage and saw similarities and Bernard was considered great and everybody loved him. Why not Carmelo ?
efficiency and more explosiveness.
We didn't trade Gallo for Bernard..
How many rings did king get? or are we going to here he never had a good supporting cast..It's the same melo story, king never made guys better around him
playa2 wrote:I just watched some footage and saw similarities and Bernard was considered great and everybody loved him. Why not Carmelo ?
If you watched legit footage, you wouldn't even mention Carmelo's name, they are nothing alike.
King operated primarily in the post, and was incredibly efficient in such, he played as a big in a sf body.
He rarely shot threes or even long jumpers.
But most importantly, even in playoff losses, dude put up even BETTER numbers in the playoffs, didn't shrink.
Taking a great celtics team to game 7, showed how great he was.
Glad melo is here, but he's no Bernard, not even sure why BK is Melos idol...by the time he saw him live BK was almost retired.
knickscity wrote:playa2 wrote:I just watched some footage and saw similarities and Bernard was considered great and everybody loved him. Why not Carmelo ?
If you watched legit footage, you wouldn't even mention Carmelo's name, they are nothing alike.King operated primarily in the post, and was incredibly efficient in such, he played as a big in a sf body.
He rarely shot threes or even long jumpers.
But most importantly, even in playoff losses, dude put up even BETTER numbers in the playoffs, didn't shrink.
Taking a great celtics team to game 7, showed how great he was.
Glad melo is here, but he's no Bernard, not even sure why BK is Melos idol...by the time he saw him live BK was almost retired.
I agree 100% with everything you said, except the bold part..
I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.
What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
TKF stat of dislike supersedes all that.
VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Knixkik wrote:holfresh wrote:We didn't trade Gallo for Bernard..
This sums it up.
The Knicks me traded a better player than Gallo for Bernard.
tkf wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:efficiency and more explosiveness.
this...
Bernard never held the ball for a long time he was quick and efficient with his decisions.
VCoug wrote:knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.
yellowboy90 wrote:VCoug wrote:knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.
The three point line was certainly existent back then.
In a day when most of you judge players by rings.
Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.
Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!
The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.
My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.
They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.
As far as scoring I see no difference.
knickscity wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:VCoug wrote:knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.
The three point line was certainly existent back then.
It did but after a year or two when he was already in the league. HE grew up not thinking about the three since it wasn't used in college until 86. So I doubt it was stressed for a while. I hear Magic mention from time to tme how his game may have been different if he grew up with the three point shot.
playa2 wrote:In a day when most of you judge players by rings. Neither of them made their teammates better and neither of them won rings in the association.
Bernard was very athletic and the players in his day were not like they are today. I heard Jordan say the greatest defender he faced wasn't Bruce Bowen of Gerald Wilkins, but Mitch Richmond!
The more athletic the league the more you tend to be hindered trying to score, so Bernard although great had a lil advantage there.
My question had to do with scoring, both of those players excelled at scoring when their teammates just watched them go to work.
They both had the ability to take over games and put fear in those who tried to defend them.
As far as scoring I see no difference.
Injuries killed Kings career, not the player he played with, and the competition he played against was vastly greater.
Would you seriously compare the 80's Celtics in which King helped force a game 7 as equal to getting knocked out in 6 with HCA by the Pacers?
Players dont fear Melo, they know they have a pretty good shot of holding him to below 45%, he can actually do it on his own ungarded.
Players absolutely feared King because his playoff performances were always BETTER than the regular season.
What amazes me with this convo, is it's obvious who's seen Bernard play and who hasn't.
Melo and Bernard are nothing alike.
knickscity wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:VCoug wrote:knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.
The three point line was certainly existent back then.
The 3-point line was adopted in 79-80, King's 3rd year in the league. 1980 was the same year that the NCAA started using it as well. It wasn't a part of anyone's repertoire so it's safe to say that Melo probably wouldn't have been shooting many 3-pointers since no one else really as either.
For what it's worth, if you don't count 3-pointers Melo's career shooting % goes from 45.6% to 47.6%
yellowboy90 wrote:knickscity wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:VCoug wrote:knickscity wrote:VCoug wrote:I'm too young to have watched King play for the Knicks so I can only go by their statistics. The thing that jumps out at me is that King shot a much higher % from the field than Melo. For his career King shot 51.8% from the field while Melo's only a 45.6% career shooter. King's worst shooting season was 90-91 near the end of his career when he shot 47.2% from the field; Melo only has 3 seasons where he's shot that well and one of them was the year he shot 47.6%. Melo's a better 3-point shooter but is only 33.4% for his career which isn't very good, though he's been better 2 of the 3 years he's been here. King was a bad 3-point shooter and only took 134 in his entire career; completely unsurprising since he came into the league before there even was a 3-point shot.What's interesting is that Melo is a much better FT shooter than King, shooting 80.8% from the line for his career compared to 73% for King. This leads me to believe that King was better at getting off good, high percentage shots than Melo is; King probably took and hit more shots in the paint and at the rim than Melo does. Melo, for his career, is only an average shooter at the rim and below average when in the paint. Overall, he's only average when within 8 feet of the basket.
If you're into advanced stats they look very similar:
TS% - King 56.1%; Melo 54.55
eFG% - King 51.9% Melo 48%
ORating - King and Melo 108
DRating - King and Melo 107
Career Win Shares - King 75.4 (874 games played); Melo 72.4 (713 games played)
WS/48 - King 0.123; Melo 0.134
Sorry my man, you cannot use stats to compare the two, this is where advanced stats fail.
Melo is bailed out by shooting threes, and that favors players in ratings.
King took easy shots, shots near the rim and not far from it, melo wants to perfect the midrange, the least efficient shot in sports.
Actually, if you re-read my 2nd paragraph I came to the same conclusion.
Then again you would think that Melo wouldn't even try threes since they wouldn't exist back then so you can;t really compare.
The three point line was certainly existent back then.
It did but after a year or two when he was already in the league. HE grew up not thinking about the three since it wasn't used in college until 86. So I doubt it was stressed for a while. I hear Magic mention from time to tme how his game may have been different if he grew up with the three point shot.
Magic couldn't shoot jumpers at all, and he was drafted within the same year the three pointer was made.
King didn't shoot long jumpers at all, the three ball wasn't an enticment because his game was closer to the basket.
