martin wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:I am a big proponent of matching the duration and age of your assets. Knicks achieved this. I like this. The only problem is that we were similarly set up in 2010 and had to take a huge chance on Amar'e. It's a double-edged sword. All that said, I do think it is worth the risk.
Were they? Could the Knicks take on 3 guys at $15M?
Yes they will be 50 million under the cap
Bonn1997 wrote:Now all we need to do between now and 2015 is get someone at the 2010 Dwyane Wade level. We can offer Melo and a lot of draft picks in the 2020s and 2030s to teams.
Thank god the NBA wont allow u to trade them in back to back years could u imagine
Are options dealing Melo are limited because he can opt out.We would have to send him somewhere he wants to go.We could of sent him to Brooklyn but its to late now they have no picks. Could do a monster trade with the Clippers.Knicks arent doing anything like this .They think they can win.Still could win the Atlantic but thats as far as they are going
Jmpasq wrote:AnubisADL wrote:I assume we'd want Aldridge or Gasol. Biggest thing is Knicks still have Melo. See what Boston got for old ass Garnett and Pierce. They jump started their rebuild.
Knicks have options and cap space. I like the move.
We will sign a 29 year old Aldridge to a max deal that will win us a title im sure
Actually he'll be 30 2weeks after we sign him, might as well say 30yrs old.
martin wrote:Rondo, Thaddeus Young, Love, Aldridge, BLopez, Marc Gasol.Tons of other names, possibly LeBron too. Getting Nokav off roster is a HUGE plus.
Knicks will have Felton, Shump, TH Jr on books.
Bron going back to Cleveland and B Lopez is staying in Brooklyn. Rondo is the only other person that peaks my interest on this listen.
James L. Dolan is not going to do jack squat in 2015. Be prepared to see the expiring contracts we have dealt for the likes of David Lee and Rudy Gay next season. Dolan is not going to wait around for free agency after he was burned once.
Gotta love the support these fans give to a GM like Grunwald who gives Novak $16 million then has to trade a 1st rounder with him just to get rid of his salary after one season. Some awful GM'ing there.
Also I have to love people willingly giving up Carmelo Anthony's prime for the next 2 years based on some free agency dream that wont even materialize. None of the free agents besides Rondo that the OP posted are franchise-changing talents. It's nothing at all like 2010. Not even close. This franchise continues to be run like garbage under Dolan.
JamesKPolk wrote:James L. Dolan is not going to do jack squat in 2015. Be prepared to see the expiring contracts we have dealt for the likes of David Lee and Rudy Gay next season. Dolan is not going to wait around for free agency after he was burned once.Gotta love the support these fans give to a GM like Grunwald who gives Novak $16 million then has to trade a 1st rounder with him just to get rid of his salary after one season. Some awful GM'ing there.
Also I have to love people willingly giving up Carmelo Anthony's prime for the next 2 years based on some free agency dream that wont even materialize. None of the free agents besides Rondo that the OP posted are franchise-changing talents. It's nothing at all like 2010. Not even close. This franchise continues to be run like garbage under Dolan.
You wouldn't want a chance at Kyrie Irving and the big of his choice?!!? 
ChuckBuck wrote:JamesKPolk wrote:James L. Dolan is not going to do jack squat in 2015. Be prepared to see the expiring contracts we have dealt for the likes of David Lee and Rudy Gay next season. Dolan is not going to wait around for free agency after he was burned once.Gotta love the support these fans give to a GM like Grunwald who gives Novak $16 million then has to trade a 1st rounder with him just to get rid of his salary after one season. Some awful GM'ing there.
Also I have to love people willingly giving up Carmelo Anthony's prime for the next 2 years based on some free agency dream that wont even materialize. None of the free agents besides Rondo that the OP posted are franchise-changing talents. It's nothing at all like 2010. Not even close. This franchise continues to be run like garbage under Dolan.
You wouldn't want a chance at Kyrie Irving and the big of his choice?!!?
Kyrie Irving will be a restricted free agent and Cleveland will match any offer for him.
gunsnewing wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:gunsnewing wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere. If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.
That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.
They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?
But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?
What 3 picks are cats talking about again???
ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).
Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.
Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.
The deal is fine if we are only giving up the 2016 swap pick. This thread is about the potential of going all in after 2015 which I've been looking forward to since Lin embarrassed the Knicks a second time at the Garden on Dec 17th and really derailed our great start. Unfornately I don't see management ever having the foresight to stick to a plan. Walsh tried but mortgaged every asset minus Shumpert. Grunwald as much as I like him has continued that trend. Which ultimately reflects on the owner as always. Maybe they've learned. We will know soon enough
I might be wrong but I think this is the first first round pick Grunwald has traded and it is a pick that Denver has the right to swap. Prior to this offseason 2016 was too far away to even be relevant in a trade. The other moves he made, trading Jorts and Jordan wasn't moving assets. Those guys are hoping to get back into the league. He did move second round picks to get Camby. Maybe last years second rounder is considered an asset but Grunwald was left with almost nothing moveable to make deals.
ChuckBuck wrote:gunsnewing wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:gunsnewing wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere. If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.
That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.
They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?
But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?
What 3 picks are cats talking about again???
ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).
Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.
Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.
The deal is fine if we are only giving up the 2016 swap pick. This thread is about the potential of going all in after 2015 which I've been looking forward to since Lin embarrassed the Knicks a second time at the Garden on Dec 17th and really derailed our great start. Unfornately I don't see management ever having the foresight to stick to a plan. Walsh tried but mortgaged every asset minus Shumpert. Grunwald as much as I like him has continued that trend. Which ultimately reflects on the owner as always. Maybe they've learned. We will know soon enough
Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, are you really going to be upset over non guaranteed contracts you can easily replace?
I just read a blog where the deal was being trashed partially because the Knicks traded the second round pick they got from OKC and the draft is supposed to be one of the deepest in years. The problem with that is it is OKC's pick and is currently projected to be the 59th pick in a 60 pick draft. You can't make this ish up. Oops. According to draftnet it is actually the 54th pick in the second round as projected based on last seasons standings.
Knicks were able to sign a guy that's probably as good as anyone in the 2nd round. UNless you're talking about a pick in the 30's, I'm not THAT worried about the 2nd rounders. The Knicks didn't really give up a substantial amount of value in this trade. We just hilariously (or rather tragically) never have a first round pick.
3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:Let's be real Miami set themselves up for 2010 on draft night. It was the Knicks that started the prep for 2010 a year before 2010. What took the Knicks a year of trades and moves Miami did it basically in a week.
If memory serves me correct didn't Lebron/Wade/Bosh set the Heat up in 2010 back in the 2008 Olympics... or am I missing something.
Team still had to work the money and cap.
Vmart wrote:3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:Let's be real Miami set themselves up for 2010 on draft night. It was the Knicks that started the prep for 2010 a year before 2010. What took the Knicks a year of trades and moves Miami did it basically in a week.
If memory serves me correct didn't Lebron/Wade/Bosh set the Heat up in 2010 back in the 2008 Olympics... or am I missing something.
Team still had to work the money and cap.
Isn't it easier to do that when you know the plan well in advance?
3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:Let's be real Miami set themselves up for 2010 on draft night. It was the Knicks that started the prep for 2010 a year before 2010. What took the Knicks a year of trades and moves Miami did it basically in a week.
If memory serves me correct didn't Lebron/Wade/Bosh set the Heat up in 2010 back in the 2008 Olympics... or am I missing something.
Team still had to work the money and cap.
Isn't it easier to do that when you know the plan well in advance?
Exactly. The only move that raised eyebrows was giving up Beasley for nothing. In retrospect, that turned out to be a good move regardless of signing Bosh or LeBron. Haslem and Joel Anthony were also free agents that year.
3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:3G4G wrote:Vmart wrote:Let's be real Miami set themselves up for 2010 on draft night. It was the Knicks that started the prep for 2010 a year before 2010. What took the Knicks a year of trades and moves Miami did it basically in a week.
If memory serves me correct didn't Lebron/Wade/Bosh set the Heat up in 2010 back in the 2008 Olympics... or am I missing something.
Team still had to work the money and cap.
Isn't it easier to do that when you know the plan well in advance?
Not true I think Bulls worked the cap space on draft day too in 2010. As far as the players being in cahoots that pisses me off to this day. But there is no doubt know that you have an inside track on everyone is always a plus.
VCoug wrote:Best as I can tell here's our salary breakdown for the Summer of 2015. It's been rumored that the salary cap is increasing by about $2M this year so let's assume it does that each of the next 2 years as well. That gives us a cap number of $64M. That Summer Felton has a player option for $4.5M, which I'm assuming he opts in, Shumpert has a qualifying offer for $3.9M, and Hardaway I believe will have a team option for a little over $2M, let's say $2.5M to be safe. That's about $9M in contracts none of which are guaranteed, leaving us with at least $55M in space. But, we're trying to resign JR, Prigioni, and Copeland and we have the MLE this Summer and next. Let's say we resign JR and Prigioni and also use our MLEs the next 2 years. JR would probably be making around $6.5M, Prigioni $2M, and the MLEs about $3.2M each. If all that money is guaranteed it would be another $15M bringing our cap number to $24M and leaving $40M in space.
The next big questions are Melo and Tyson. It's safe to say that Amare won't be resigned for anywhere near what he's making so we won't worry about him. Tyson will have a cap hold of about $15M which eats into the remaining cap space. If we want to use his Bird rights to go over the cap and resign him that cap hold stays until he signs a new contract. Melo's a little more complicated because he also has a player option the year before. If he opts out and we resign him I think it's safe to say he'll be getting the maximum which would be another $25M in guaranteed money. If he doesn't opt out his cap hold would still be $25M.
What does it all mean? Potentially we have anywhere form $0 to $64M in cap space for 2015. If we want to maximize out potential cap room we won't sign or trade for any players that have guaranteed money past 2014. The problem with that is we're already limited to which free agents are willing to sign here and if we're not willing to guarantee any money past 1 or 2 seasons that limits our options even more over the next 2 seasons. If we want to maximize our potential these next 2 years that eats into our potential cap space in 2015.
I wouldnt be opposed to bringing all those guys back on Smaller deals even Amare if he can stay on the court for 60-70 games. At Chandlers age he may in line for a much smaller contract. It gets dicey with Melo because Im not paying him a Max Extension. If Melo truly wants to win he can take a cap friendly deal around 3 years 40 - 45 million. There is no way in hell im giving him a Kobe deal and i really hope Dolan doesnt force whoever are GM's hand
Bonn1997 wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:gunsnewing wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere. If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.
That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.
They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?
But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?
What 3 picks are cats talking about again???
ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).
Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.
Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.
You can find a long list of sources saying we are including the 2nd round picks too. Perhaps some sites are leaving off the 2nd round picks because they're just reporting the main pieces of the deal.
You can see here how this NY Times article reports it the way ESPN et al. do at first (mentioning the key pieces but not the 2nd round picks)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/sports...
The Knicks will send Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a 2016 first-round draft pick to the Raptors in exchange for Bargnani
But when they include the full details below, they mention likely 2nd round picks
The Knicks are also expected to send the Raptors at least one second-round pick in the deal.
Google search "Knicks Bargnani 2nd round picks" and you will find a long list of articles mentioning the picks.
Even if it's true, are you really fretting over 2nd rounders? 
Well, we're giving up 3 picks and the better players. We should be getting 2 picks here. This is a net loss of about 5 picks relative to a statistically neutral, fair trade.
I still dont get how they got 3. I can see the inclusion of either the 1st or the 2 2nds but all 3 to me is crazy. I think your way off base saying we are giving up the better players though. Camby is done and is going to retire . Novak is not better then Bargs I dont care what advance stats say. Watch them play, watch how Bargs handles the ball, Novak can't put the ball on the floor, he is a stationary shooter. Bargs is significantly more physically talented and its not even close.Those stats mean nothing now coming to the Knicks. Different team , different players, not the pressure of being the Number 1 pick by that team.Now he is just another role player floating around planet Melo.
Few reasons Im hesitant about this trade "besides the picks" but worrying the better players left is not 1 of them. I'm more worried about his health.Im worried that Woodson is going to screw up the rotations. The only way this works is if Bargs starts at PF and Melo goes to SF. If Bargs is on the bench playing opposite Melo then this trade is really stupid because it cancels out the benefit Bargs has to the team. 2nd unit with Amare and Bargs would be a travesty defensively. I almost want to see it just to see how pathetic it is.
ChuckBuck wrote:loweyecue wrote:So are we now admitting the current roster is worthless and this is all a master plan for 2015? We went from win now and chest thumping 52 win contenders to 2015 long term project by making one trade with two assets that were ..."worthless"?? Or are we contenders now and planning for 2015 at the same time?
54 win contenders. 
This move sets us now(2 gimp power forwards instead of 1, meaning we really really need K-Mart back) as well as the summer 2015.
Yes to both questions you asked.
I hope we get KMart back too. He brought a toughness to the lineup we haven't had
VCoug wrote:Best as I can tell here's our salary breakdown for the Summer of 2015. It's been rumored that the salary cap is increasing by about $2M this year so let's assume it does that each of the next 2 years as well. That gives us a cap number of $64M. That Summer Felton has a player option for $4.5M, which I'm assuming he opts in, Shumpert has a qualifying offer for $3.9M, and Hardaway I believe will have a team option for a little over $2M, let's say $2.5M to be safe. That's about $9M in contracts none of which are guaranteed, leaving us with at least $55M in space. But, we're trying to resign JR, Prigioni, and Copeland and we have the MLE this Summer and next. Let's say we resign JR and Prigioni and also use our MLEs the next 2 years. JR would probably be making around $6.5M, Prigioni $2M, and the MLEs about $3.2M each. If all that money is guaranteed it would be another $15M bringing our cap number to $24M and leaving $40M in space.
The next big questions are Melo and Tyson. It's safe to say that Amare won't be resigned for anywhere near what he's making so we won't worry about him. Tyson will have a cap hold of about $15M which eats into the remaining cap space. If we want to use his Bird rights to go over the cap and resign him that cap hold stays until he signs a new contract. Melo's a little more complicated because he also has a player option the year before. If he opts out and we resign him I think it's safe to say he'll be getting the maximum which would be another $25M in guaranteed money. If he doesn't opt out his cap hold would still be $25M.
What does it all mean? Potentially we have anywhere form $0 to $64M in cap space for 2015. If we want to maximize out potential cap room we won't sign or trade for any players that have guaranteed money past 2014. The problem with that is we're already limited to which free agents are willing to sign here and if we're not willing to guarantee any money past 1 or 2 seasons that limits our options even more over the next 2 seasons. If we want to maximize our potential these next 2 years that eats into our potential cap space in 2015.
Thanks man, that answered a lot of my questions and validates my own statements about this trade.
DurzoBlint wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:loweyecue wrote:So are we now admitting the current roster is worthless and this is all a master plan for 2015? We went from win now and chest thumping 52 win contenders to 2015 long term project by making one trade with two assets that were ..."worthless"?? Or are we contenders now and planning for 2015 at the same time?
54 win contenders.
This move sets us now(2 gimp power forwards instead of 1, meaning we really really need K-Mart back) as well as the summer 2015.
Yes to both questions you asked.
I hope we get KMart back too. He brought a toughness to the lineup we haven't had
Ditto on KMArt.
Jmpasq - Agree - Bargs was brought in with the hope he will stay healthy and play alongside Melo for the reasons you gave. Open the floor so Melo can work inside.
For the others who say we should bring back DLee for Bargs - I love DLee but he won't mesh with Melo as DLee will play the same space as Melo. Too many inside players on the court together. Also, DLee has a contract thru 2015- 2016 season.
Bonn1997 wrote:Now all we need to do between now and 2015 is get someone at the 2010 Dwyane Wade level. We can offer Melo and a lot of draft picks in the 2020s and 2030s to teams.
what does this mean?
you mean melo's salary being higher?
i don't think it's a sure thing he will take the max money, especially if he wants to help the team win. if that's the case then we could move him elsewhere.
