Knicks · Phoenix Suns PG tandom and JR's Smiths market (page 1)

So Suns now have

Bledsoe

Dragic
Kendall Marshall
Archie Goodwin

I believe Bledsoe and Archie Goodwin are both products of Kentucky while Goodwin will likely need 2-3 years to develop
It sure helps Dragic and Bledsoe were both mentored by Nash/Cp3 as future HOF PG's and one of the best in the league at one time together
Both Bledsoe and Dragic can teach some things to both Marshall and Goodwin as they had the opportunity to learn off the best especially Bledsoe who was under taken under the wing of both Cp3, Billups, and Grant Hill

Only Bledsoe is actually small but is super athletic, strong, quick/fast, and nice length, while Dragic/Goodwin can easily play SG's with a 2 PG set, especially if Goodwin develops in to a Westrook/Reggie Jackson
Marshall is quite thin but is still 6-4 and will have to continue to fill up his body

Dragic needed another ball handler/penetrator with shooters to play to his strengths, and I believe they have a very good PG combo that could play 2 PG's together, maybe even at times 3 like the Detroit Pistons once did

I would love to add any of these PG's if possible

On JR's Smiths market value

Iggy was given a contract anywhere from 12 to under 20m a year
Tyreke Evans given 40-48m for 4 years, so 12m+ per year

Kevin Martin signed for 4 years, 28m at 7m per year
Redick traded for 4 years 27m at about 7m per year

Budinger, Webster, Tony Allen signed for over 5m per year for 3-4 years

Dunleavy signed for 2 year 6m at 3m per year while he was offered a contract of the full MLE but decided Bulls was the better fit for him and his career/age/

What will

Oj Mayo
Monta Ellis
Manu Ginobili

Kyle Korver
Carlos Delfino

Corey Brewer
Randy Foye
Belinili

all get?
It would likely determine the market for JR Smith and Mayo is probably most comparable to Smith's talent without his DEFENSE and off the court issues
It does look Smith should earn upwards of 7m per year as he easily outplayed both Redick/Kevin Martin
Had JR Smith finished the season without the Terry and off the court issues like clubbing/Rihanna/Drugs and drinking issues, he should have easily been getting a multiyear deal from 8-12m per year

In the end, it would be a very deal in terms of talent if we can keep JR at what we can offer him
However, if we had to sign Chris Smith for a roster spot in order to do so, it would be a great waste of a roster spot at the same time

For the life of me -- I can't believe we didn't get involved in this deal for Bledsoe, KNOWING DAMN WELL we need a PG. Wow...I mean can you imagine a Bledsoe/Shumpert backcourt on both sides of the ball? Starting backcourt would've been set up for years to come... Look at the pieces exchanged here -- Jared Dudley? JJ Redick?? A couple of 2nd round picks (and see, this is why you don't keep giving away your damn picks like candy btw, even 2nd rounders). Role players and 2nd round picks.. Bledsoe was the jewel of this deal by far..

I gotta believe we could've chumped any offer out there, even w/o 2nd rounders (and w/o including Shumpert) -- I would've offered JR Smith (I really think he could've been convinced to go there QUICKLY -- does he wanna go to Milwaukee? How 'bout back to China?? He's a big city guy and LA's just as big a city as NY. Plus that Clipper roster is STACKED to the brim with talent and they just scored a very good head coach---very positive situation out there) and if need be I would've GLADLY upped the offer to include Hardaway Jr., cash, the trade exception for Ronnie Brewer, etc., or whatever other little nonsense we could've included to seal a deal. I mean I'm at a loss for words how we didn't get involved on this. WOW. I'm gonna have nightmares about this for a week!

I mean what the hell are they doing?!? WE COULD'VE HAD ERIC BLEDSOE!!! I don't wanna hear anything about him not being a true pass-first point, being too small -- that's all nonsense. This young dude's EXPLOSIVE and the potential's threw the roof!! HUGE opportunity lost...

Well, onto plan B -- OFFER DARREN COLLISON this full mini-MLE and pray to God he accepts. He's clearly the 2nd best PG opportunity out there, now that Bledsoe's off the table. Dallas cut him and as far as I'm hearing -- the Wizards and Cavs are possibly the only 2 teams out there right now expressing interest. You think this dude would want to go to either of those teams or come play for the Knicks? We could be in on this IF WE ACT NOW!! Nah, we'll let this opportunity go by the wayside too because we have a 2-year deal on the table for Pablo Prigioni (which he hasn't even accepted yet btw) and we're good at PG. Not trying to knock Pablo -- I like him -- as a 3rd PG, not as Felton's primary backup. We desperately need a quicker/uptempo, much more dynamic PG to pair with Felton, someone we can see taking over for Felton eventually. I don't understand how Glen and mgmt. go about their priorities at all. When Bledsoe became available -- that became a 'drop whatever your doing' type of opportunity to get involved in as far as I'm concerned. If we didn't have the pieces to get that done, OK, you forget about it. But we clearly did..

Finestrg wrote:For the life of me -- I can't believe we didn't get involved in this deal for Bledsoe, KNOWING DAMN WELL we need a PG. Wow...I mean can you imagine a Bledsoe/Shumpert backcourt on both sides of the ball? Starting backcourt would've been set up for years to come... Look at the pieces exchanged here -- Jared Dudley? JJ Redick?? A couple of 2nd round picks (and see, this is why you don't keep giving away your damn picks like candy btw, even 2nd rounders). Role players and 2nd round picks.. Bledsoe was the jewel of this deal by far..

I gotta believe we could've chumped any offer out there, even w/o 2nd rounders (and w/o including Shumpert) -- I would've offered JR Smith (I really think he could've been convinced to go there QUICKLY -- does he wanna go to Milwaukee? How 'bout back to China?? He's a big city guy and LA's just as big a city as NY. Plus that Clipper roster is STACKED to the brim with talent and they just scored a very good head coach---very positive situation out there) and if need be I would've GLADLY upped the offer to include Hardaway Jr., cash, the trade exception for Ronnie Brewer, etc., or whatever other little nonsense we could've included to seal a deal. I mean I'm at a loss for words how we didn't get involved on this. WOW. I'm gonna have nightmares about this for a week!

I mean what the hell are they doing?!? WE COULD'VE HAD ERIC BLEDSOE!!! I don't wanna hear anything about him not being a true pass-first point, being too small -- that's all nonsense. This young dude's EXPLOSIVE and the potential's threw the roof!! HUGE opportunity lost...

Well, onto plan B -- OFFER DARREN COLLISON this full mini-MLE and pray to God he accepts. He's clearly the 2nd best PG opportunity out there, now that Bledsoe's off the table. Dallas cut him and as far as I'm hearing -- the Wizards and Cavs are possibly the only 2 teams out there right now expressing interest. You think this dude would want to go to either of those teams or come play for the Knicks? We could be in on this IF WE ACT NOW!! Nah, we'll let this opportunity go by the wayside too because we have a 2-year deal on the table for Pablo Prigioni (which he hasn't even accepted yet btw) and we're good at PG. Not trying to knock Pablo -- I like him -- as a 3rd PG, not as Felton's primary backup. We desperately need a quicker/uptempo, much more dynamic PG to pair with Felton, someone we can see taking over for Felton eventually. I don't understand how Glen and mgmt. go about their priorities at all. When Bledsoe became available -- that became a 'drop whatever your doing' type of opportunity to get involved in as far as I'm concerned. If we didn't have the pieces to get that done, OK, you forget about it. But we clearly did..

We are going cheap, and we only seem to trade for bigs. Who was the last big name guard that we traded for? Marbles??? And Stevie Franchise?
Then we draft the Chris Duhons and Toney Douglases of the world and expect to win championships. Our strategy is focused on dumping the ball to Melo, PGs will never be a priority with this front office.

Marshall is looking like he was a bad pick for Phoenix. Maybe they move him for a pick or something.

Finestrg wrote:For the life of me -- I can't believe we didn't get involved in this deal for Bledsoe, KNOWING DAMN WELL we need a PG. Wow...I mean can you imagine a Bledsoe/Shumpert backcourt on both sides of the ball? Starting backcourt would've been set up for years to come... Look at the pieces exchanged here -- Jared Dudley? JJ Redick?? A couple of 2nd round picks (and see, this is why you don't keep giving away your damn picks like candy btw, even 2nd rounders). Role players and 2nd round picks.. Bledsoe was the jewel of this deal by far..

I gotta believe we could've chumped any offer out there, even w/o 2nd rounders (and w/o including Shumpert) -- I would've offered JR Smith (I really think he could've been convinced to go there QUICKLY -- does he wanna go to Milwaukee? How 'bout back to China?? He's a big city guy and LA's just as big a city as NY. Plus that Clipper roster is STACKED to the brim with talent and they just scored a very good head coach---very positive situation out there) and if need be I would've GLADLY upped the offer to include Hardaway Jr., cash, the trade exception for Ronnie Brewer, etc., or whatever other little nonsense we could've included to seal a deal. I mean I'm at a loss for words how we didn't get involved on this. WOW. I'm gonna have nightmares about this for a week!

I mean what the hell are they doing?!? WE COULD'VE HAD ERIC BLEDSOE!!! I don't wanna hear anything about him not being a true pass-first point, being too small -- that's all nonsense. This young dude's EXPLOSIVE and the potential's threw the roof!! HUGE opportunity lost...

Well, onto plan B -- OFFER DARREN COLLISON this full mini-MLE and pray to God he accepts. He's clearly the 2nd best PG opportunity out there, now that Bledsoe's off the table. Dallas cut him and as far as I'm hearing -- the Wizards and Cavs are possibly the only 2 teams out there right now expressing interest. You think this dude would want to go to either of those teams or come play for the Knicks? We could be in on this IF WE ACT NOW!! Nah, we'll let this opportunity go by the wayside too because we have a 2-year deal on the table for Pablo Prigioni (which he hasn't even accepted yet btw) and we're good at PG. Not trying to knock Pablo -- I like him -- as a 3rd PG, not as Felton's primary backup. We desperately need a quicker/uptempo, much more dynamic PG to pair with Felton, someone we can see taking over for Felton eventually. I don't understand how Glen and mgmt. go about their priorities at all. When Bledsoe became available -- that became a 'drop whatever your doing' type of opportunity to get involved in as far as I'm concerned. If we didn't have the pieces to get that done, OK, you forget about it. But we clearly did..

If I'm LAC I'd much rather have Redick and Dudley instead of JR and a random assortment of crap. And, if we're not keeping JR anyway they can sign him outright for almost the same amount of money that we can so there's no benefit there to trade for him.

VCoug wrote:

Finestrg wrote:For the life of me -- I can't believe we didn't get involved in this deal for Bledsoe, KNOWING DAMN WELL we need a PG. Wow...I mean can you imagine a Bledsoe/Shumpert backcourt on both sides of the ball? Starting backcourt would've been set up for years to come... Look at the pieces exchanged here -- Jared Dudley? JJ Redick?? A couple of 2nd round picks (and see, this is why you don't keep giving away your damn picks like candy btw, even 2nd rounders). Role players and 2nd round picks.. Bledsoe was the jewel of this deal by far..

I gotta believe we could've chumped any offer out there, even w/o 2nd rounders (and w/o including Shumpert) -- I would've offered JR Smith (I really think he could've been convinced to go there QUICKLY -- does he wanna go to Milwaukee? How 'bout back to China?? He's a big city guy and LA's just as big a city as NY. Plus that Clipper roster is STACKED to the brim with talent and they just scored a very good head coach---very positive situation out there) and if need be I would've GLADLY upped the offer to include Hardaway Jr., cash, the trade exception for Ronnie Brewer, etc., or whatever other little nonsense we could've included to seal a deal. I mean I'm at a loss for words how we didn't get involved on this. WOW. I'm gonna have nightmares about this for a week!

I mean what the hell are they doing?!? WE COULD'VE HAD ERIC BLEDSOE!!! I don't wanna hear anything about him not being a true pass-first point, being too small -- that's all nonsense. This young dude's EXPLOSIVE and the potential's threw the roof!! HUGE opportunity lost...

Well, onto plan B -- OFFER DARREN COLLISON this full mini-MLE and pray to God he accepts. He's clearly the 2nd best PG opportunity out there, now that Bledsoe's off the table. Dallas cut him and as far as I'm hearing -- the Wizards and Cavs are possibly the only 2 teams out there right now expressing interest. You think this dude would want to go to either of those teams or come play for the Knicks? We could be in on this IF WE ACT NOW!! Nah, we'll let this opportunity go by the wayside too because we have a 2-year deal on the table for Pablo Prigioni (which he hasn't even accepted yet btw) and we're good at PG. Not trying to knock Pablo -- I like him -- as a 3rd PG, not as Felton's primary backup. We desperately need a quicker/uptempo, much more dynamic PG to pair with Felton, someone we can see taking over for Felton eventually. I don't understand how Glen and mgmt. go about their priorities at all. When Bledsoe became available -- that became a 'drop whatever your doing' type of opportunity to get involved in as far as I'm concerned. If we didn't have the pieces to get that done, OK, you forget about it. But we clearly did..

If I'm LAC I'd much rather have Redick and Dudley instead of JR and a random assortment of crap. And, if we're not keeping JR anyway they can sign him outright for almost the same amount of money that we can so there's no benefit there to trade for him.

Of course I would've attempted to do this for JR alone but if the Clippers required more, like I said, I would've been prepared to offer JR Smith AND Hardaway Jr. AND whatever little money kickers we could've thrown in to satisfy....That's easily a better package than Dudley and JJ Redick imo. God knows I don't love Smith but there's no denying the man has value. We're talking about the reigning 6th man of the year here AND a promising 6'6" SG taken 24th in the draft. That would've been my package, if need be..Plus money sweeteners or a 2nd rounder far off in the distance (because we prob. don't have any left coming up soon -- 2020? I dunno)...No need for a 3rd team even, just deal directly with us..I think we could've made this happen and I'm irritated a little to not here that we were in on this... And like I've been saying -- there would've been further incentive for LA to get JR at the Knicks' discounted price in a S&T, not the open market price (maybe the Clipper could've been convinced to take Chris Smith too, who knows---we'll never know because we weren't in on this!). If teams can get JR for that price, you gotta figure they'd be more inclined to pull the trigger...Now at the open market price of say $2-3m MORE, teams may very well pass and go a different direction (like Dudley & Redick for example)...Incentive for Smith too -- you want a long-term deal in a desirable location, playing for a very good team/very good head coach OR do you want to get greedy, turn this offer down, role the dice and when nobody wants you for your number, then what? Then you're up the creek and on the next plane back to China, that's what...Possibly. That's risky for JR.

All I wanted to hear when this news about Bledsoe being available first surfaced was that Glen recognized the value in Bledsoe, recognized that we need a backup PG (preferably someone with Bledsoe's high-octane skill-set) and that he immediately got involved with this. We didn't hear that. Not a peep. If we were in on this, we would've heard something. It's disappointing, esp. considering we had some chips that the Clippers could've been interest in -- they wanted and got 2 SGs, we could've offered up 2 SGs...Opportunity lost here if you ask me. BIG-TIME..Oh well, moving on..

Finestrg wrote:Of course I would've attempted to do this for JR alone but if the Clippers required more, like I said, I would've been prepared to offer JR Smith AND Hardaway Jr. AND whatever little money kickers we could've thrown in to satisfy....That's easily a better package than Dudley and JJ Redick imo.

dude, not even close man.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Of course I would've attempted to do this for JR alone but if the Clippers required more, like I said, I would've been prepared to offer JR Smith AND Hardaway Jr. AND whatever little money kickers we could've thrown in to satisfy....That's easily a better package than Dudley and JJ Redick imo.

dude, not even close man.

Disagree BIG-TIME. It's right in the neighborhood my friend...Nobody's hanging the phone up on Glen if he called and offered that up. We're right there with the other offer imo. Dudley F'in Do-Right? Dude's a role player, albeit a good one, granted. And Redick's practically a role player himself/borderline starter material that just came into his own the past couple of years after pretty much being a semi-bust his first few years in the league.. Maybe I was wrong to first say we could've "chumped" the offer they wound up taking. But it's right there, better imo.

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Of course I would've attempted to do this for JR alone but if the Clippers required more, like I said, I would've been prepared to offer JR Smith AND Hardaway Jr. AND whatever little money kickers we could've thrown in to satisfy....That's easily a better package than Dudley and JJ Redick imo.

dude, not even close man.

Disagree BIG-TIME. It's right in the neighborhood my friend...Nobody's hanging the phone up on Glen if he called and offered that up. We're right there with the other offer imo. Dudley F'in Do-Right? Dude's a role player, albeit a good one, granted. And Redick's practically a role player himself/borderline starter material that just came into his own the past couple of years after pretty much being a semi-bust his first few years in the league.. Maybe I was wrong to first say we could've "chumped" the offer they wound up taking. But it's right there, better imo.

2 proven commodities at SG/SF who can both play defense and hit from downtown is better than JR and a guy who hasn't proven himself in the NBA?

BTW, both of those guys can hit from distance, and that's what LAC was looking for.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Of course I would've attempted to do this for JR alone but if the Clippers required more, like I said, I would've been prepared to offer JR Smith AND Hardaway Jr. AND whatever little money kickers we could've thrown in to satisfy....That's easily a better package than Dudley and JJ Redick imo.

dude, not even close man.

Disagree BIG-TIME. It's right in the neighborhood my friend...Nobody's hanging the phone up on Glen if he called and offered that up. We're right there with the other offer imo. Dudley F'in Do-Right? Dude's a role player, albeit a good one, granted. And Redick's practically a role player himself/borderline starter material that just came into his own the past couple of years after pretty much being a semi-bust his first few years in the league.. Maybe I was wrong to first say we could've "chumped" the offer they wound up taking. But it's right there, better imo.

2 proven commodities at SG/SF who can both play defense and hit from downtown is better than JR and a guy who hasn't proven himself in the NBA?

BTW, both of those guys can hit from distance, and that's what LAC was looking for.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I look at both of those guys as role players. Very well may be right that the Clips were strictly looking for SGs that can shoot the ball from deep at a high %. That's how it appears because that's essentially what they got. But I don't know with 100% certainty that was the sole criteria... I wasn't in the room with the Clippers brass when they were discussing team needs and/or what they absolutely had to get out of this deal. Maybe this was the best deal they could get and we never bothered to get involved.

Let me ask you something -- forget discussing the value of JR Smith/THJ compared to what they got for a sec...Would you have liked to have seen Glen get involved for Eric Bledsoe and would you have been OK with Glen offering up JR Smith in a S&T along with THJ in a deal to get this guy? Yes or no?

Finestrg wrote:Let me ask you something -- forget discussing the value of JR Smith/THJ compared to what they got for a sec...Would you have liked to have seen Glen get involved for Eric Bledsoe and would you have been OK with Glen offering up JR Smith in a S&T AND THJ in a deal to get him? Yes or no?

sure I would have.

JR destroyed his value in the playoffs. Had the guy played well we would of had zero chance of retaining him

Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

EnySpree wrote:Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

It doesn't matter who they already have on the roster because their team sucks. There's no one there they can build around and no one there is untouchable. Best thing they can do is acquire as many assets as possible so they can parlay them into better assets.

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

It doesn't matter who they already have on the roster because their team sucks. There's no one there they can build around and no one there is untouchable. Best thing they can do is acquire as many assets as possible so they can parlay them into better assets.

aka poor management....I know you wouldn't tolerate that from the knicks

EnySpree wrote:

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

It doesn't matter who they already have on the roster because their team sucks. There's no one there they can build around and no one there is untouchable. Best thing they can do is acquire as many assets as possible so they can parlay them into better assets.

aka poor management....I know you wouldn't tolerate that from the knicks

If I were a Suns fan I would hate the Suns' front office, particularly Sarver who was so cheap he refused to match Joe Johnson's contract and sold the 1st round picks that turned into Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler (I think), and Rajon Rondo. That doesn't mean that this trade is a bad one.

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

It doesn't matter who they already have on the roster because their team sucks. There's no one there they can build around and no one there is untouchable. Best thing they can do is acquire as many assets as possible so they can parlay them into better assets.

aka poor management....I know you wouldn't tolerate that from the knicks

If I were a Suns fan I would hate the Suns' front office, particularly Sarver who was so cheap he refused to match Joe Johnson's contract and sold the 1st round picks that turned into Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler (I think), and Rajon Rondo. That doesn't mean that this trade is a bad one.

If im a Suns fan i'm pissed wondering why the fuck did we get Bledsoe when we have Dragic....

Are they going to try to move Dragic? Do they think Bledsoe is suited for the 2 guard? I don't think so.

EnySpree wrote:

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

VCoug wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Can we talk about the fact that nba teams don't know what they hell they are doing? Why did phoenix agree to this? The just sign Dragic to a multi year deal and drafted two point...

I can do that horribly sitting right here on my couch for free

It doesn't matter who they already have on the roster because their team sucks. There's no one there they can build around and no one there is untouchable. Best thing they can do is acquire as many assets as possible so they can parlay them into better assets.

aka poor management....I know you wouldn't tolerate that from the knicks

If I were a Suns fan I would hate the Suns' front office, particularly Sarver who was so cheap he refused to match Joe Johnson's contract and sold the 1st round picks that turned into Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler (I think), and Rajon Rondo. That doesn't mean that this trade is a bad one.

If im a Suns fan i'm pissed wondering why the fuck did we get Bledsoe when we have Dragic....

Are they going to try to move Dragic? Do they think Bledsoe is suited for the 2 guard? I don't think so.

If I'm a Suns fan why do I give a shit that I have 2 point guards? I'm not building around either one and both can be easily traded. This team is rebuilding. They won 25 games last year and were the worst team in the West. They're not trying to marginally improve the team to 30 wins. The whole point of a rebuild is to gather as many assets as possible to improve the team in the future, not right now.

That's garbage to me...trading for people with the thought to trade them again? So what hould the fans do? not show up to games and not buy merchandise until they figure out what they wanna do?

I think Bledsoe and Dragic are viewed more as combo guards at this point and they'll probably do a ball handler by committee thing. If it doesn't work, both still have trade value. I think they're happy that they are finally able to flip Jared Dudley for something. To me, all this move shows is that the Suns have little confidence in Kendall MArshall.

I just think you need to have a plan....you can't just get random players and hope some team wants to trade you a star...the theme must be how do we make the team better...25 winn team making the right moves can become a playoff team...just get players just to get them his horrible management.