Knicks · Bargnani's Coming Out Party (page 5)

EnySpree wrote:17/6 and 1.4 blocks per game his last season playing with Bosh....

Motivation and the chance to play for something and play with better players....

Having an offense that will be catered to him playing stretch for with Melo and Chandler....

It's a celebration bitches!!!!

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Curry is an exaggeration. No one is as unmovivated as him. Curry was all based on potential. Bargnani is proven

Bargs so far has only proven that he will underachieve... consistently...

Underachieve? Based on that he was drafted #1?

un·der·a·chieve
/ˌəndərəˈCHēv/
Verb
Do less well than is expected, esp. in schoolwork.

I guess by definition that would be correct..

Not his fault he was drafted first. Had he been taken 10th overall he would be considered a good pick. Look at a guy like Joe Smith. They guy had a solid career but is considered an underachiever since he was drafted first overall.

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:17/6 and 1.4 blocks per game his last season playing with Bosh....

Motivation and the chance to play for something and play with better players....

Having an offense that will be catered to him playing stretch for with Melo and Chandler....

It's a celebration bitches!!!!

But he still gave up more points than he scored. A guy could score 30 PPG but if he's giving up 40, he's not helping.

AB does not get outscored by every player he is guarding. The Raptors obviously lose a ton of games each year but to point to one player and state he's the reason the team is negative is pure nonsense.

There are games where he gets outplayed but the same can be said about 95% of the league.

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:17/6 and 1.4 blocks per game his last season playing with Bosh....

Motivation and the chance to play for something and play with better players....

Having an offense that will be catered to him playing stretch for with Melo and Chandler....

It's a celebration bitches!!!!

But he still gave up more points than he scored. A guy could score 30 PPG but if he's giving up 40, he's not helping.

AB does not get outscored by every player he is guarding. The Raptors obviously lose a ton of games each year but to point to one player and state he's the reason the team is negative is pure nonsense.

There are games where he gets outplayed but the same can be said about 95% of the league.

Actually, he gets badly outplayed by the man he's guarding. There are several stats on this - opponent PER, defensive ratings, and others.

azamatbagatov wrote:To all the guys talking up AB's game did you feel the same way about it 2 weeks ago when he was not a Knick?

Always though he was a solid offense player who has trouble playing defense. Still feel he is inconsistent as well but feel that him being forced into being a #1 when he is clearly not. AB as a franchise player will never work because he is not a franchise player but he is a heck of a complimentary piece.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:17/6 and 1.4 blocks per game his last season playing with Bosh....

Motivation and the chance to play for something and play with better players....

Having an offense that will be catered to him playing stretch for with Melo and Chandler....

It's a celebration bitches!!!!

But he still gave up more points than he scored. A guy could score 30 PPG but if he's giving up 40, he's not helping.

AB does not get outscored by every player he is guarding. The Raptors obviously lose a ton of games each year but to point to one player and state he's the reason the team is negative is pure nonsense.

There are games where he gets outplayed but the same can be said about 95% of the league.

Actually, he gets badly outplayed by the man he's guarding. There are several stats on this - opponent PER, defensive ratings, and others.

Aren't you the one who prefers to dismiss PER rankings for things such as true shooting percentage, etc.?

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:17/6 and 1.4 blocks per game his last season playing with Bosh....

Motivation and the chance to play for something and play with better players....

Having an offense that will be catered to him playing stretch for with Melo and Chandler....

It's a celebration bitches!!!!

But he still gave up more points than he scored. A guy could score 30 PPG but if he's giving up 40, he's not helping.

AB does not get outscored by every player he is guarding. The Raptors obviously lose a ton of games each year but to point to one player and state he's the reason the team is negative is pure nonsense.

There are games where he gets outplayed but the same can be said about 95% of the league.

Actually, he gets badly outplayed by the man he's guarding. There are several stats on this - opponent PER, defensive ratings, and others.

Aren't you the one who prefers to dismiss PER rankings for things such as true shooting percentage, etc.?

Dismiss? No. Give less weight to? Yes. I give more weight to the defensive ratings per 100 possessions formula than to the opponent PER. The most important message though is to use all the advanced stats to form a global evaluation of the player. With Bargs, the message from the stats is unambiguous.
There's obviously a chance he can become a good player. I would not have minded signing him for the vet min as a free agent but I would not give up any assets of any value beyond a min salary roster spot for him.

Panos wrote:

Chris Bosh wrote:Someone say something about a Comin' Out Party?!

Speaking of Bosh, I can't wait until the first time Bargnani does this against the Heat:

Bargnani can never be a complete defensive player without a presence on the defensive boards. I’ve never been hung up on Bargs’ poor offensive rebounding numbers, because part of his increasingly effective offensive game involves him playing away from the basket half of the time, but there will never be a valid excuse to pardon a seven-footer for averaging less than five defensive rebounds in 33 minutes per game.

His consistently improving one-on-one defence and his apparently excellent post defence are great things to see if you’re a Raptors fan, but unless Bargnani can show a general understanding of help-defence without hurting himself and until he becomes at least an average defensive rebounding big man, he’ll never be able to shake the stigma of being a defensive liability, regardless of those impressive man-to-man stats.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2...

Some of you will be aware of this, but for those of you aren’t, let me catch you up real quick. You know how Andrea Bargnani has this reputation as being the very definition of a horrible defender? It’s not entirely a fictional archetype, but it’s also not really so much in love with the truth that the two have announced the relationship on Facebook. Synergy Sports ranked Bargnani in the 88th percentile in post defense on a per-possession basis, and the 56th percentile in isolation defense last season (with a gaudy 95th percentile overall). It wasn’t all Dwane Casey’s wizardry last season (though his work with Bargnani’s defense should not be ignored, but we’ll get there. In 2011, he was 47th percentile in post and 83rd percentile in isolation. 2010? 72nd percentile in the post, 28th in isolation. Bear in mind these numbers are regardless of the number of possessions, so someone that defended in the post once successfully logs in at the top of the chart. So basically, he’s even better than these numbers indicate, relative to his position.

http://gothicginobili.com/?p=3929

Andrea Bargnani is an interesting player, to me. I think he's a heck of a lot better than most people think, especially defensively. You think I'm insane? Perhaps. But I'll list off a few facts that Matt Moore shared back in the summer of 2010, when he first got access to Synergy's video database and took some time to parse through the numbers. I saved them, and spent the entire next season paying extremely close attention to both players in an effort to see if the Synergy-based assertions matched what I was seeing. (I didn't have Synergy until mid-2012, so I could only really watch stuff like this by living on League Pass.)

While Bosh was in Toronto, Bargnani guarded the better opposing big 9 out of 10 times.
Despite guarding the better big Bargnani's man D was better than Bosh's man D.
He's actually a very effective post defender, and uses his athleticism and size to make easy shots challenging.
He's recently been in the top 15% of NBA players in isolation defense. When guarding big men shooting jumpers, Bargnani holds them to 30% shooting.
Despite all this, he's still been a net negative defender on the Raptors over his career.

What does all of this mean? It may suggest that Bargs seems to be a terrible help defender who is an awful rim protector but is a good one on one defender. Also, in regards to his low defensive rating(Dean Martin): As I look more and more into it has a lot to do with your team d and not just your individual ability. I believe most stat heads agree (I could be wrong) that there is not really a good metric right now (at least publicly that measures defense ability.

yellowboy90 wrote:In a lot of ways he compares to a taller Gallo.

Yea........ except Andrea is better.

Take a wild guess here.

Player A 2010 (rank): Isolation 145th, post-up 56th, roll man 64th, spot up 59th, off-screen 58th, cut 58th, o-rebound 25th

Player B 2010 (rank): Isolation 138th, post-up 18th, roll man 35th, spot-up 286th, cut 61st, o-rebound 111th.

Player A 2011 (rank): Isolation 102nd, post-up 14th, roll man 31st, spot-up 180, off-screen 35th, cut 150, o-rebound 91st.

Player B 2011 (rank): Isolation 45th, post-up 48th, roll-man 38th, spot-up 206, off-screen 46th, cut 91st.

Player A 2012 (rank); Isolation 18th, post-up 34th, roll-man 65th, spot-up 82nd, off-screen 81st, cut 44th.

Player B 2012 (rank): Isolation 13th, post-up 34th, roll man 84th, spot-up 110, off-screen 7, cut 86th.

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning...

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:In a lot of ways he compares to a taller Gallo.

Yea........ except Andrea is better.

I wouldn't say that. The potential is there but he has to prove it.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Take a wild guess here.

Player A 2010 (rank): Isolation 145th, post-up 56th, roll man 64th, spot up 59th, off-screen 58th, cut 58th, o-rebound 25th

Player B 2010 (rank): Isolation 138th, post-up 18th, roll man 35th, spot-up 286th, cut 61st, o-rebound 111th.

Player A 2011 (rank): Isolation 102nd, post-up 14th, roll man 31st, spot-up 180, off-screen 35th, cut 150, o-rebound 91st.

Player B 2011 (rank): Isolation 45th, post-up 48th, roll-man 38th, spot-up 206, off-screen 46th, cut 91st.

Player A 2012 (rank); Isolation 18th, post-up 34th, roll-man 65th, spot-up 82nd, off-screen 81st, cut 44th.

Player B 2012 (rank): Isolation 13th, post-up 34th, roll man 84th, spot-up 110, off-screen 7, cut 86th.

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning...

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Take a wild guess here.

Player A 2010 (rank): Isolation 145th, post-up 56th, roll man 64th, spot up 59th, off-screen 58th, cut 58th, o-rebound 25th

Player B 2010 (rank): Isolation 138th, post-up 18th, roll man 35th, spot-up 286th, cut 61st, o-rebound 111th.

Player A 2011 (rank): Isolation 102nd, post-up 14th, roll man 31st, spot-up 180, off-screen 35th, cut 150, o-rebound 91st.

Player B 2011 (rank): Isolation 45th, post-up 48th, roll-man 38th, spot-up 206, off-screen 46th, cut 91st.

Player A 2012 (rank); Isolation 18th, post-up 34th, roll-man 65th, spot-up 82nd, off-screen 81st, cut 44th.

Player B 2012 (rank): Isolation 13th, post-up 34th, roll man 84th, spot-up 110, off-screen 7, cut 86th.

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning...

I'm glad you posted those numbers. That might give a little more hope. Maybe there is one aspect of defense (man to man defending) where Bargs is actually OK. His rebounding is still a disaster though.

You are right about his rebounding but if he is a good man to man defender it would be interesting to see how he fits in a switching defense. This limits his responsibilities somewhat and keeps him focused on player to player. Maybe he is like Amar'e though and doesn't undertand how to switch? We will see.

Also, those numbers above are offensive numbers.

2010/ A) Bargs (B) Duncan

2011/ A) Amar'e (B) Bargs

2012/ A) Bargs (B) Dirk

nixluva wrote:I think the idea is that you have to believe you can bring in a talent like AB and that you can fix the areas where he is weak with some work. You may not completely get him to be the best at every area of weakness, but if you can make some measurable improvement you can have a really good player on your hands. Some players don't have the same upside.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I think the idea is that you have to believe you can bring in a talent like AB and that you can fix the areas where he is weak with some work. You may not completely get him to be the best at every area of weakness, but if you can make some measurable improvement you can have a really good player on your hands. Some players don't have the same upside.

Bargnani has A LOT to prove. I hope he does as a bigtime Knicks fan

I don't know about proving anything, but I want to see him back to playing with joy for the game and in the mix with other good players. The Raptors situation soured on him, which happens to good players sometimes. This is a new and clean slate and I hope he embraces the situation. Dude has all kinds of skills offensively. I'm not worried about that part of his game. IF he can improve on his effort level defensively and on the boards that would be a huge plus. I do expect him to be a good addition offensively, but it's the other side of the ball that he has to embrace a new attitude towards. I've seen a bit more intensity from guys on this team that were horrible defenders and it gives me hope for AB too.

nixluva wrote:I think the idea is that you have to believe you can bring in a talent like AB and that you can fix the areas where he is weak with some work. You may not completely get him to be the best at every area of weakness, but if you can make some measurable improvement you can have a really good player on your hands. Some players don't have the same upside.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I think the idea is that you have to believe you can bring in a talent like AB and that you can fix the areas where he is weak with some work. You may not completely get him to be the best at every area of weakness, but if you can make some measurable improvement you can have a really good player on your hands. Some players don't have the same upside.

Bargnani has A LOT to prove. I hope he does as a bigtime Knicks fan

I don't know about proving anything, but I want to see him back to playing with joy for the game and in the mix with other good players. The Raptors situation soured on him, which happens to good players sometimes. This is a new and clean slate and I hope he embraces the situation. Dude has all kinds of skills offensively. I'm not worried about that part of his game. IF he can improve on his effort level defensively and on the boards that would be a huge plus. I do expect him to be a good addition offensively, but it's the other side of the ball that he has to embrace a new attitude towards. I've seen a bit more intensity from guys on this team that were horrible defenders and it gives me hope for AB too.