Knicks · Here is some game tape on THJR (page 1)

This is just me--I don't think this guy is a first round pick. He does not look like he has much ballhandling to his game. He looked somewhat smallish and bothered by size on the court+ at the rim He does not exactly look speedy in the up and down. He wasnt a great finisher---he looked perimeter orientated but only looks like a decent shooter. We could not find a guy like this in the D league?

BRIGGS wrote:This is just me--I don't think this guy is a first round pick. He does not look like he has much ballhandling to his game. He looked somewhat smallish and bothered by size on the court+ at the rim He does not exactly look speedy in the up and down. He wasnt a great finisher---he looked perimeter orientated but only looks like a decent shooter. We could not find a guy like this in the D league?

Not just you. He was a mediocre college player who doesn't excel at anything. There's a good chance we won't even bother picking up his team option in a couple of years.

Sure if you look at one game to make a decision.

Keep in mind that he played within a system and Trey Burke was the man on that team.

I'm not saying that he is going to be an all star but if he can give us some defense with the ability to knock down an open jumper I'll be happy. Besides can't we wait to see what he does on an NBA court?

Briggs, I don't agree with you on this one. He came out of the gate a bit too reckless. But I thought that clip showed promise. He knows how to play the game. I don't want to make it sound like he's going to be a future HOFer or something like that but I like what he brings to the table. He fed the ball at the right time/place, and he himself was always was in the right place... one of the threes he was short on was in transition and you could tell he knew exactly where he needed to be. I think he is going to get better

He looks like he hasa relatively high, awkward dribble.

Briggs I think you're gonna end up being wrong about this guy. He's not slow, he was one of the fastest guys his size in the Draft, agile and had a pretty good vert at 38". Players can work on their handle and shooting and most with some talent do make improvement. Plus you have to accept that the Knicks had a good look at all the other available players and felt he was the best talent.

Some guys just don't jump off the screen at you. The other issue is that every year there are players who come into the NBA and look much better than they did in college. T Jr. may be that kind of player. Some guys have all the pop, flash and explosion but in a NBA system they can't put it together. Don't tell me you haven't seen that happen with all the players we've seen flame out at the next level.

SupremeCommander wrote:Briggs, I don't agree with you on this one. He came out of the gate a bit too reckless. But I thought that clip showed promise. He knows how to play the game. I don't want to make it sound like he's going to be a future HOFer or something like that but I like what he brings to the table. He fed the ball at the right time/place, and he himself was always was in the right place... one of the threes he was short on was in transition and you could tell he knew exactly where he needed to be. I think he is going to get better

I looked at a lot of his game tapes. This was a good one because it was against Kansas who had NBA size and athleticism on that team. Im sure he will have his moments--but hes not big (199 pounds) hes not a good ballhandler not a great rebounder hes a fair shooter he does play the game well within the team concept and has solid athletic ability but nothing that can be found sitting in the D league. On a really good team like that his % shouldve been better. And these tapes show that he might have trouble dealing with players his size at the same position because he has little way to create separation --we'll see I think C J Leslie despite being undrafted and without long range jumper(for now) was the better pro prospect.

nixluva wrote:Briggs I think you're gonna end up being wrong about this guy. He's not slow, he was one of the fastest guys his size in the Draft, agile and had a pretty good vert at 38". Players can work on their handle and shooting and most with some talent do make improvement. Plus you have to accept that the Knicks had a good look at all the other available players and felt he was the best talent.

Some guys just don't jump off the screen at you. The other issue is that every year there are players who come into the NBA and look much better than they did in college. T Jr. may be that kind of player. Some guys have all the pop, flash and explosion but in a NBA system they can't put it together. Don't tell me you haven't seen that happen with all the players we've seen flame out at the next level.

There are guys who can run in a straight line and guys who are fast up and down with the ball. THJR is not fast with the ball nor does he stand out on the break. He is not a high flyer--look at that film--he was certainly made to look small by both Young on offense than defense and Withey near the rim. Hes not a big kid 199 pounds. Glen Rice Jr was 12 pounds heavier and looked like a much better athlete with better handle and jumper--if SG was the position of choice. I would not be surprised if THJR is nothing more than a role player and done for the kNicks.

I take this video about as seriously as I take many of the highlight clips I see all over YouTube. If I were to post a short video highlighting one of your worst days, you wouldn't look too hot either.

BigDaddyG wrote:I take this video about as seriously as I take many of the highlight clips I see all over YouTube. If I were to post a short video highlighting one of your worst days, you wouldn't look too hot either.

Its gametape against athletes of his own size. What can you take away from it--well you can see he does not handle the ball very well--I dont see how changing tape matters. His jumpshot mirrors his stats--hes only a fair jump shooter--not a great athlete--I mean what does he do that well--what his his NBA skill?

Observe the rim run at 2:14 slow weak and non-athletic--he did not look like an NBA athlete. Even on his one drive--he had to use high glass with a hope and a prayer.

We're gonna get a chance to see what the Knicks brass saw in T Jr. soon enough. Not having a great handle doesn't mean he can't get by his man at all. He's just not one of the best there is at it, but it's a skill that can be improved with work. JR himself has had to work on his handle and other parts of his game.

I just don't think it's fair to say this kid isn't just as athletic, quick and agile as other comparable draftees.

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

I think this video is more indicative of what kind of player T Jr. is.

Gotta agree with Briggs. I didn't catch a lot of college bball but what I did watch during the tournament had me saying to myself that he wasn't ready. I'm not sure if it was an un forced turnover or something, but just haf me thinking he wasn't that good.

Here's a clip of THJ giving a very good accounting himself, including a game against Victor Oladipo and the Indiana Hoosiers. What does it tell me? Not much. My point is that any player will look horrible if you show off his worst moments and any player will look like a world beater if show off his highlights.

JesseDark wrote:Gotta agree with Briggs. I didn't catch a lot of college bball but what I did watch during the tournament had me saying to myself that he wasn't ready. I'm not sure if it was an un forced turnover or something, but just haf me thinking he wasn't that good.

Not being ready isn't the same as not being talented enough. Also it seems that unless you really look at a lot of film and also give some credence to the Knicks staff who saw him up close then it's not fair to judge off one bad play or game. A lot more goes into scouting talent than that. In the post I have above, the video shows a kid who can do a little of everything. He looks like a well rounded player who still has upside to his game in terms of perfecting his skills. He's also one of the better athletes in the draft. There are more athletic players but they are all of the freaks in the draft. There are a lot more guys below him.

nixluva wrote:We're gonna get a chance to see what the Knicks brass saw in T Jr. soon enough. Not having a great handle doesn't mean he can't get by his man at all. He's just not one of the best there is at it, but it's a skill that can be improved with work. JR himself has had to work on his handle and other parts of his game.

I just don't think it's fair to say this kid isn't just as athletic, quick and agile as other comparable draftees.

T Jr.       sprint = 3.25 Vert = 37.5 Agility = 10.68 Bench = 16
Ricky Ledo  sprint = 3.32 Vert = 33.5 Agility = 10.72 Bench = 4
A. Crabbe   sprint = 3.40 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 11.25 Bench = 9
Otto Porter sprint = 3.32 Vert = 36.0 Agility = 10.67 Bench = 10

I think this video is more indicative of what kind of player T Jr. is.

What the difference in this tape. He does not make plays with the dribble. He does not finish at the rim. Hes a spot up shooter who has a very spotty % shot in college. If the jumpshot is his skill so be it but hes a role player at best.

I'll admit don't watch the college game but I try to research all these players come draft time and the more I see him I'm turned off. I think he can be a very steady shooter but like Briggs has stated multiple times his handle isn't good. He's athletic but if you don't have an elusive dribble you probably won't be much more than a role player in this league. I never expected a star with the 24th pick but I don't see his defensive ability either, in fact, he appears to be a liability pretty often. I'd be alright with a good athlete who can d up and hit the three but I'm not even sure he can do that. I'll reserve anymore judgment until I see him play in the pros.

tj23 wrote:I'll admit don't watch the college game but I try to research all these players come draft time and the more I see him I'm turned off. I think he can be a very steady shooter but like Briggs has stated multiple times his handle isn't good. He's athletic but if you don't have an elusive dribble you probably won't be much more than a role player in this league. I never expected a star with the 24th pick but I don't see his defensive ability either, in fact, he appears to be a liability pretty often. I'd be alright with a good athlete who can d up and hit the three but I'm not even sure he can do that. I'll reserve anymore judgment until I see him play in the pros.

I like Leslie a lot better. Hes got his too--hes stuck between 3-4 but Leslie can actually handle the ball quite well for 6-9(which separates his skills from those before him who have failed the 3-4 problem) and I think that can even get better. With his wingspan and his agility--Leslie can be utilized to guard any of the 1-2-3 positions. Imagine a cat quick 6-9 guy with a 7-3 wingspan put on the opponents 6-1 PG in the halfcourt. He is a top level NBA finisher and offensive rebounder--he knows how to post hes got a nice first step I think from watching him hes going to be able to shoot.. Now he has some handles--if those move up 20% and he can establish the jumpshot--than watch out--we have a 6-9 SF who has a LOT of NBA specialty game in him. You can see CJ's handle in many tapes he's in. Many tapes he is a primary ballhandler the guy who brings up the ball.

BRIGGS wrote:This is just me--I don't think this guy is a first round pick. He does not look like he has much ballhandling to his game. He looked somewhat smallish and bothered by size on the court+ at the rim He does not exactly look speedy in the up and down. He wasnt a great finisher---he looked perimeter orientated but only looks like a decent shooter. We could not find a guy like this in the D league?

I disagree Briggs - I think he's going to be a better pro than a college player.

I do think he got a bit lost in the Michigan system where Burke had the ball in his hands +70% of the time and he was surrounded by potentially 3 lottery players (Burkes, Robinson & freshman center can't place name (McGurty?).

I've looked at a lot of tape on Hardaway post draft -- both good and bad.

Combine measurements show him with prototype SG size - length. His atleticism tested well also and you can see that athleticism when he attacks the basket and gets out on the break.

Hardaway does a few things very well on offense that I think will help him in the NBA spread game. 1 He can catch and shoot - has a quick release and beautiful form on his jumper. 2 He can catch take one quick dribble to separate and rise for that nice looking jump shot. 3 he can catch the ball and attack the basket.

In all 3 of these instances he seems to be decisive in his decisions. The college game isn't as spread out as the NBA - lots of bodies in the paint. I think Hardaway will find more open space in the pro game and has the necessary athleticism, skill and work ethic to keep getting better.

I think we got a solid SG.

BRIGGS wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Briggs, I don't agree with you on this one. He came out of the gate a bit too reckless. But I thought that clip showed promise. He knows how to play the game. I don't want to make it sound like he's going to be a future HOFer or something like that but I like what he brings to the table. He fed the ball at the right time/place, and he himself was always was in the right place... one of the threes he was short on was in transition and you could tell he knew exactly where he needed to be. I think he is going to get better

I looked at a lot of his game tapes. This was a good one because it was against Kansas who had NBA size and athleticism on that team. Im sure he will have his moments--but hes not big (199 pounds) hes not a good ballhandler not a great rebounder hes a fair shooter he does play the game well within the team concept and has solid athletic ability but nothing that can be found sitting in the D league. On a really good team like that his % shouldve been better. And these tapes show that he might have trouble dealing with players his size at the same position because he has little way to create separation --we'll see I think C J Leslie despite being undrafted and without long range jumper(for now) was the better pro prospect.

CJ does wow you on tape - man that kid is a physical animal and attacks the rim -- at least on the tape I've seen.

It does go to show you though -- the importance of the mental side and I really believe Hardaway is super solid mentally - will be a hard worker and continue refine his skill/game.

tj23 wrote:I'll admit don't watch the college game but I try to research all these players come draft time and the more I see him I'm turned off. I think he can be a very steady shooter but like Briggs has stated multiple times his handle isn't good. He's athletic but if you don't have an elusive dribble you probably won't be much more than a role player in this league. I never expected a star with the 24th pick but I don't see his defensive ability either, in fact, he appears to be a liability pretty often. I'd be alright with a good athlete who can d up and hit the three but I'm not even sure he can do that. I'll reserve anymore judgment until I see him play in the pros.

I'm not sure that it matters what you can or can't see in the game tapes. As i've said, this is a player the Knicks looked at up close and i'm sure they reviewed loads of game tapes too. They also talked to him and after all of that they felt he was the best player available when they picked. SO far all you and Briggs are going on is the game tapes but not what the Knicks brass saw with their much more detailed look at the player. It's entirely possible that he looked a lot more impressive in their workouts.

Don't forget that these kids get tons of training following the end of the season. Often they tighten holes in their game with all the extra time to work on it. So he could indeed be better now than he looked during the season. You and Briggs seem to be making the assumption that the kid couldn't get any better or look any better. Perhaps he did just that.