Knicks · Bargnani is a post player (page 3)

7 rebs = no

17 points, possibly but needs to be a major part of the offense to do it.

has potential to break out as a scorer...but chances of that are around 30-40%.

good scorer but it will come down to how woodson uses him.

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best. Also I think if the guys here talking up Bargnani's game were asked their opinion of him as a player 2 weeks before we traded for him, it wouldn't be as positive as it is today.

the picks matter, but they do not carry the weight your suggesting, and can be replaced. For every Ginobili folks cry about missing out on there are 30 Milos Vujanics and Majec Lampe's who never even play in the league for every Ginibili. So be realistic. The can yield a useful player but if you actually crunch the #s you will see the vast majority of #2 never make the league, much less become rotation players.

TFK.. what was the expectation in regards to talent your going to net with Novak, Camby and low/late future second rounders? The Knicks situation is what it is, and we did something in the Bargs trade we NEVER do, which is buy low. Yea Bargs is damaged goods, didnt live up to a #1 (bad draft and all) and isnt and likely will never be an NBA star, but he can be avery good play, clearly has some bigtime skills and the Knicks got him when his value is lowest. Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better? This move will improve our defense and rebounding because it pushed Melo back to the 3 instead of us starting him at the 4 which looks cute in the regular season vs the NBAs lower tier but has zero chance of standing up in the playoffs.

RonRon wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Bargs is a 7footer and most of the work was done on

Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Shawnee Williams

Amare

It was Gallo and Chandler's earlier years as well but also Amare's best year as a Knick
Barg's was able to expose to mismatches and caught fire but I think it is "small sample sizing"
This was Barg's best season, its like putting on a Billups, Kidds, Camby's, Rasheed's, best years and a highlight video of theirs and saying that is what we are possibly getting

As a Knick fan,
I would like him to succeed but with Melo, he will likely have a fit if ANY PLAYER gets on a roll playing as an option higher than him *regardless of mismatch problems* and playing off a player that he does not think is a TOP 10 player that he respects

I just can't see it happening, not which Melo, not with this Coach, if Melo feels 15m isn't enough in 2015 summer and/or doesn't want to terminate his player option, we would be doing ourselves a favor by trading him while we can still get good value

truth is, NO ONE wants to come to NY in a bargain deal because they don't like the way we play, how Melo plays, how COACH Woodson allows all of this to happen, how he doesn't execute plays, and horrible rotations/lineups/doghouses
On top of it, they likely become a trade commodity if they perform well and took less salary to come over, who wants that....

As a 7fter, Bargs should have his share of mismatches next season, but you're right that playing in the post is not his bread and butter. That clip shows however that he does have some post moves, which is encouraging. It will be up to Woodson and our PGs to exploit those mismatches.

I don't see a real mismatch vs the Top 4 teams in the East
At least not without being a mismatch on both ends *meaning he would get eaten up on DEF*

While

Miami takes his ability to penetrate away with their speed and TEAM DEF and Bosh is a mobile C that can contend his shot and recover with help
Nets have plenty of BIGS that can match up with him, especially KG and AK47, not to mention Plumlee and Reggie Evans
Bulls have Noah/Gibson to match up with Bargs
Pacer's would have trouble matching up with him for Barg's outside shooting ability but will get eaten up on DEF with their size/strength/post up abilities

What the knicks needed in the playoffs was a frontline player (outside of Melo) who could take a defensive(PF-C) rebounder away from the basket who didn't clog the lane, and by being a threat from the outside.

Barganni will do that for us.

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

The whole idea of Woody loving ISO ball is a problem against the Pacers. The Pacers were the #1 team defending ISO plays. So the only way Woody is going to be successful sticking with his ISO ball is to find a way to weaken the Pacers D, by spreading it out. He's gotta get Hibbert out of the paint. That's why he wants AB and wanted Sheed in the mix when he was healthy. Hibbert almost has nothing to worry about when Tyson is in there cuz Tyson doesn't do anything except PnR and Hibbert won't leave the paint on PnR so there goes that. Now with AB in the PnR/PnP that changes. AB can stroke it from anywhere and so Hibbert wouldn't be able to just ignore his presence on the floor. He'll have to stick with him and that also presents another issue for Hibbert or any Center. AB can get by most bigs out on the perimeter. So basically AB can have a huge positive effect against one of our main foes.

This is not to say that it won't also help against the Bulls, Heat or Nets to have AB in the mix. I think any extra threats on the floor will help. Having Shump be more aggressive or THJ out on the perimeter would also help.
However, AB is more of a problem with his size. The difference between AB on Toronto and him on the Knicks is that the Knicks have more guys to worry about besides him. The defense will be preoccupied with stopping Melo, JR, Felton and that will help AB to face less help.

People want to self hate their own Knicks team, but when you look at this team you have to acknowledge that this team has some legit threats on offense that will be hard to deal with defensively. The Knicks are going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.

nixluva wrote:The whole idea of Woody loving ISO ball is a problem against the Pacers. The Pacers were the #1 team defending ISO plays. So the only way Woody is going to be successful sticking with his ISO ball is to find a way to weaken the Pacers D, by spreading it out. He's gotta get Hibbert out of the paint. That's why he wants AB and wanted Sheed in the mix when he was healthy. Hibbert almost has nothing to worry about when Tyson is in there cuz Tyson doesn't do anything except PnR and Hibbert won't leave the paint on PnR so there goes that. Now with AB in the PnR/PnP that changes. AB can stroke it from anywhere and so Hibbert wouldn't be able to just ignore his presence on the floor. He'll have to stick with him and that also presents another issue for Hibbert or any Center. AB can get by most bigs out on the perimeter. So basically AB can have a huge positive effect against one of our main foes.

This is not to say that it won't also help against the Bulls, Heat or Nets to have AB in the mix. I think any extra threats on the floor will help. Having Shump be more aggressive or THJ out on the perimeter would also help.
However, AB is more of a problem with his size. The difference between AB on Toronto and him on the Knicks is that the Knicks have more guys to worry about besides him. The defense will be preoccupied with stopping Melo, JR, Felton and that will help AB to face less help.

People want to self hate their own Knicks team, but when you look at this team you have to acknowledge that this team has some legit threats on offense that will be hard to deal with defensively. The Knicks are going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.

Yup, the ball definitely has to move more this year, and be less sticky. Definitely can't be walk the ball up, toss it into Melo and JR and get out the way. Need more "Horns", backdoor cuts, motion type plays, as well as, more transition hoops. ISO Ball played directly into Indy's strengths.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

exactly. you can pick and choose at virtually any spot in the Draft and find a good player who went there. the expected value of a pick in the late 20s is low, probably a less than 50% chance at even a rotation player.

i love the people who say we should hoard assets so we can use them to get a good player. WE DID EXACTLY THAT. a 2016 1st round pick, nominal 2nd rounders, a guy who has been exposed over 2 years (novak), and a guy who didn't get any burn last year -- that assembly of "assets" for a 7 footer who can score in the post, shoot the 3, pass, draw double teams, and is 28 years old and has something to prove? that's a good trade. thanks, i'll take it.

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

according to an actual study done by the # crunchers, the value of pick 20 is "role player".

I remember that game where he destroyed us. Back then the media made out he was an awesome player, just realizing his potential and was way better than Gallo.

Now they make out he's always been garbage, never came close to reaching his potential, and sucks ass.

smackeddog wrote:I remember that game where he destroyed us. Back then the media made out he was an awesome player, just realizing his potential and was way better than Gallo.

Now they make out he's always been garbage, never came close to reaching his potential, and sucks ass.

good reminder to disregard whatever media SPIN is and just apply reason to facts and what you see with your own eyes.

fishmike wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

We were the #2 seed in a conference were the Bulls missed Rose for a year, the Pacers missed Granger for a year and the Nets weren't nearly as stacked as they are now for a 2 year run. Picks are assets. Everyone here seems to like Shumpert and Hardaway Jr. Both guys picked in the later half of the 1st round. Even the 2nd rounders sting. We could draft and stash a Foreign player like the Spurs did with Ginobli. I just don't think that adding Bargnani really makes that much of a difference for us and our outlook next year. To lose a commodity like a first rounder for a guy who won't bring us any closer to 'chip just doesn't make sense to me. That pick could have been packaged with Stat's expiring to make him more attractive to another team.

I am not a hater and I won't root for him to fail but I just think whatever he gives us on offense he will take away with atrocious rebounding and poor defense. I believe it's a lateral move at best. Also I think if the guys here talking up Bargnani's game were asked their opinion of him as a player 2 weeks before we traded for him, it wouldn't be as positive as it is today.

the picks matter, but they do not carry the weight your suggesting, and can be replaced. For every Ginobili folks cry about missing out on there are 30 Milos Vujanics and Majec Lampe's who never even play in the league for every Ginibili. So be realistic. The can yield a useful player but if you actually crunch the #s you will see the vast majority of #2 never make the league, much less become rotation players.

TFK.. what was the expectation in regards to talent your going to net with Novak, Camby and low/late future second rounders? The Knicks situation is what it is, and we did something in the Bargs trade we NEVER do, which is buy low. Yea Bargs is damaged goods, didnt live up to a #1 (bad draft and all) and isnt and likely will never be an NBA star, but he can be avery good play, clearly has some bigtime skills and the Knicks got him when his value is lowest. Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better? This move will improve our defense and rebounding because it pushed Melo back to the 3 instead of us starting him at the 4 which looks cute in the regular season vs the NBAs lower tier but has zero chance of standing up in the playoffs.

what are we buying low fish mike? bargnani addresses none of our needs..The dude is a dud...plain and simple..

Is it so impossible this guy comes in, takes over the 2nd scorer's role and the Knicks are better?

do you think he will be a better scorer than JR smith? if not, how does that make us better? the more he is on the floor, he will be taking minutes from someone else that can rebound and defend... that doesn't make us better.. for once, when will we ever address our needs instead of trying to resurrect dead careers, and find a silver lining out of it?

smackeddog wrote:I remember that game where he destroyed us. Back then the media made out he was an awesome player, just realizing his potential and was way better than Gallo.

Now they make out he's always been garbage, never came close to reaching his potential, and sucks ass.

It is going to be interesting to hear your views of him as the season rolls along...

playa2 wrote:

RonRon wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Bargs is a 7footer and most of the work was done on

Wilson Chandler
Gallo
Shawnee Williams

Amare

It was Gallo and Chandler's earlier years as well but also Amare's best year as a Knick
Barg's was able to expose to mismatches and caught fire but I think it is "small sample sizing"
This was Barg's best season, its like putting on a Billups, Kidds, Camby's, Rasheed's, best years and a highlight video of theirs and saying that is what we are possibly getting

As a Knick fan,
I would like him to succeed but with Melo, he will likely have a fit if ANY PLAYER gets on a roll playing as an option higher than him *regardless of mismatch problems* and playing off a player that he does not think is a TOP 10 player that he respects

I just can't see it happening, not which Melo, not with this Coach, if Melo feels 15m isn't enough in 2015 summer and/or doesn't want to terminate his player option, we would be doing ourselves a favor by trading him while we can still get good value

truth is, NO ONE wants to come to NY in a bargain deal because they don't like the way we play, how Melo plays, how COACH Woodson allows all of this to happen, how he doesn't execute plays, and horrible rotations/lineups/doghouses
On top of it, they likely become a trade commodity if they perform well and took less salary to come over, who wants that....

As a 7fter, Bargs should have his share of mismatches next season, but you're right that playing in the post is not his bread and butter. That clip shows however that he does have some post moves, which is encouraging. It will be up to Woodson and our PGs to exploit those mismatches.

I don't see a real mismatch vs the Top 4 teams in the East
At least not without being a mismatch on both ends *meaning he would get eaten up on DEF*

While

Miami takes his ability to penetrate away with their speed and TEAM DEF and Bosh is a mobile C that can contend his shot and recover with help
Nets have plenty of BIGS that can match up with him, especially KG and AK47, not to mention Plumlee and Reggie Evans
Bulls have Noah/Gibson to match up with Bargs
Pacer's would have trouble matching up with him for Barg's outside shooting ability but will get eaten up on DEF with their size/strength/post up abilities

What the knicks needed in the playoffs was a frontline player (outside of Melo) who could take a defensive(PF-C) rebounder away from the basket who didn't clog the lane, and by being a threat from the outside.

Barganni will do that for us.

you said we needed copeland to play.. which is why we lost to the pacers... So which is it playa? he is now on the pacers.. are they not any better now?

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

It is not on equal footing regarding teams picking players. We have way more money than most teams and the league doesn't say how much you can spend on scouts, analytics, background research, etc. Really, we have no reason to fail during a draft. Our selection project should realistically be a large investment on our part, especially since it essentially is a large investment regarding 1st round pick money.

I do like the Bargs trade though. I think he will come through for us and we were between a rock and a hard place as far as finding talent, considering the CBA, our situation, etc.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:I thought the knicks got him to space the floor? oh well, there goes that one... Almost every player will have a highlight reel or two of them scoring in the post.. doesn't make them a post player....

lets do this.. lets start pulling up highlights of him rebounding, scoring in the paint and protecting the basket... that is what the knicks needed... good luck finding enough of that to last 2 minutes....

The Knicks needed talent, size and scoring. No one other than Melo and occasionally Felton, Shump, and Prigs could score for the Knicks against the Pacers. I remember Bargs always seemed to kill the Knicks. Great pick up for almost nothing. Can't wait to see him running with the Knicks.

Like i've said, this is a player that gives this team something it lacked. They wanted Sheed to give the team a big who could post and also stretch the floor and that is what AB does best. He is highly skilled in the post but also has a great pump fake and ability to get to the hoop off a couple of dribbles. Knick fans that are being Debbie Downer's will have to stay quiet when this team is getting additional scoring it needs. Not to mention he's right in his prime years. He's been humbled and now is looking for a chance to redeem himself.

I'm just glad that there are enough fans who actually realize that this was a good move by the Knicks to try and address the need for another legit scorer. We played such good BB when Sheed was healthy and giving us that big who could do a few different things and to be honest Sheed wasn't actually shooting great. If AB can improve his effort on the boards and defense we'll be in good shape.

I was for Bringing him in i just dont like how the Knicks went about it. I wanted to do an Amare swap with him. I dont mind Bargs the player I just think they overpaid. U can minimize the picks and say they r 3 years from now but they still are assets.Even if its 1 pick to many its still 1 to many that can be used somewhere else. The Knicks just get beat in every move they make. They get beat by Agents and rival GM's

CrushAlot wrote:

azamatbagatov wrote:I love the wishful thinking but I don't think we are a much better team now then the day before we got Bargnani. He doesn't even move us from being a #5 seed. Lateral move at best since he is still one of the worst rebounders and defenders in the game. If you are trading first round picks you better be making moves to help get a championship in your grasp. This doesn't qualify

Knicks were the number 2 seed. The games haven't been played. Teams have improved but Bargs could be a huge addition. The Knicks traded a pick that is relevant three years from now that the Nuggets have the right to switch with them. 9/10 times that pick is a role player if you scout well.

Your trading multiple assets for a guy that doesnt put u over the top. Those picks could of been used to move Amare next offseason.Or a better PG could of been obtained

tkf wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I remember that game where he destroyed us. Back then the media made out he was an awesome player, just realizing his potential and was way better than Gallo.

Now they make out he's always been garbage, never came close to reaching his potential, and sucks ass.

It is going to be interesting to hear your views of him as the season rolls along...

Ha, it probably will! I know next to nothing about him, other than a few seasons ago media pundits were singing his praises, and now they're saying he has been a perpetual bum! I have low expectations about the deal, but I'm looking forward to making up my own mind, and I hope I'm proved wrong...

nixluva wrote:The whole idea of Woody loving ISO ball is a problem against the Pacers. The Pacers were the #1 team defending ISO plays. So the only way Woody is going to be successful sticking with his ISO ball is to find a way to weaken the Pacers D, by spreading it out. He's gotta get Hibbert out of the paint. That's why he wants AB and wanted Sheed in the mix when he was healthy. Hibbert almost has nothing to worry about when Tyson is in there cuz Tyson doesn't do anything except PnR and Hibbert won't leave the paint on PnR so there goes that. Now with AB in the PnR/PnP that changes. AB can stroke it from anywhere and so Hibbert wouldn't be able to just ignore his presence on the floor. He'll have to stick with him and that also presents another issue for Hibbert or any Center. AB can get by most bigs out on the perimeter. So basically AB can have a huge positive effect against one of our main foes.

This is not to say that it won't also help against the Bulls, Heat or Nets to have AB in the mix. I think any extra threats on the floor will help. Having Shump be more aggressive or THJ out on the perimeter would also help.
However, AB is more of a problem with his size. The difference between AB on Toronto and him on the Knicks is that the Knicks have more guys to worry about besides him. The defense will be preoccupied with stopping Melo, JR, Felton and that will help AB to face less help.

People want to self hate their own Knicks team, but when you look at this team you have to acknowledge that this team has some legit threats on offense that will be hard to deal with defensively. The Knicks are going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.

Great and then on the other end we will get smashed on the boards with him at Center. Hibbert will score at will against him in the post.

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

It is not on equal footing regarding teams picking players. We have way more money than most teams and the league doesn't say how much you can spend on scouts, analytics, background research, etc. Really, we have no reason to fail during a draft. Our selection project should realistically be a large investment on our part, especially since it essentially is a large investment regarding 1st round pick money.

I do like the Bargs trade though. I think he will come through for us and we were between a rock and a hard place as far as finding talent, considering the CBA, our situation, etc.

EMS... cmon man. No reason to fail? Every year the smartest minds in the game are wrong. Every year the most experienced scouts get it wrong. Every year advanced scouting misses players... in every sport.

There is no draft science. Stephen Curry was too skinny to ever be a star... probably just pretty good. We could do this all day. Its good to have picks. The teams that draft the best players over a 20 year period all probably have one thing in common: They all use the draft, so I will give you that.

BigSm00th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

exactly. you can pick and choose at virtually any spot in the Draft and find a good player who went there. the expected value of a pick in the late 20s is low, probably a less than 50% chance at even a rotation player.

i love the people who say we should hoard assets so we can use them to get a good player. WE DID EXACTLY THAT. a 2016 1st round pick, nominal 2nd rounders, a guy who has been exposed over 2 years (novak), and a guy who didn't get any burn last year -- that assembly of "assets" for a 7 footer who can score in the post, shoot the 3, pass, draw double teams, and is 28 years old and has something to prove? that's a good trade. thanks, i'll take it.

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

according to an actual study done by the # crunchers, the value of pick 20 is "role player".

YOU MAKE "role player" sound bad... does it tell you if they are good role players?, or even GREAT role players? I would like to see an actual study on that..

No matter how much you try to mitigate the value of picks, especially in the knicks case, they are valuable.... they have value... they are not to be treated the way we have over the years...

Jmpasq wrote:

nixluva wrote:The whole idea of Woody loving ISO ball is a problem against the Pacers. The Pacers were the #1 team defending ISO plays. So the only way Woody is going to be successful sticking with his ISO ball is to find a way to weaken the Pacers D, by spreading it out. He's gotta get Hibbert out of the paint. That's why he wants AB and wanted Sheed in the mix when he was healthy. Hibbert almost has nothing to worry about when Tyson is in there cuz Tyson doesn't do anything except PnR and Hibbert won't leave the paint on PnR so there goes that. Now with AB in the PnR/PnP that changes. AB can stroke it from anywhere and so Hibbert wouldn't be able to just ignore his presence on the floor. He'll have to stick with him and that also presents another issue for Hibbert or any Center. AB can get by most bigs out on the perimeter. So basically AB can have a huge positive effect against one of our main foes.

This is not to say that it won't also help against the Bulls, Heat or Nets to have AB in the mix. I think any extra threats on the floor will help. Having Shump be more aggressive or THJ out on the perimeter would also help.
However, AB is more of a problem with his size. The difference between AB on Toronto and him on the Knicks is that the Knicks have more guys to worry about besides him. The defense will be preoccupied with stopping Melo, JR, Felton and that will help AB to face less help.

People want to self hate their own Knicks team, but when you look at this team you have to acknowledge that this team has some legit threats on offense that will be hard to deal with defensively. The Knicks are going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.

Great and then on the other end we will get smashed on the boards with him at Center. Hibbert will score at will against him in the post.

I said this many times... there is the other end of the court.. I am sure the pacers will trade bargs shooting threes at 38% all night for hibbert getting point blank shots at near 100%...

fishmike wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:this idea that Bargnani is some sort of small forward or Copeland redux is sort of bizarre to me.

here he is killing us a few years back.

-- note that he easily shoots over wilson chandler (6'8) and gallinari (6'10) in the post.
-- he's also a really good passer out of the post. has some nice no-looks, is patient with the ball, and is able to find the open man regularly, especially when a double team is sent.
-- how many times does he set up on the perimeter in that clip? a few high PnR's, but this guy isn't a perimeter jump shooter who shies from contact.

i would imagine the Knicks will try to play him and Melo together a lot -- that will create a LOT of mismatches.

disregard Bargnani last year -- he was on a bad team, he was hurt, and the fans had openly turned on him and would boo him when he'd come into games. the guy was checked out (not the first NBA player to quit on the raptors - see vince carter).

i know the consensus is the Knicks gave up a lot but this guy's a talented scorer, a legitimate 7 footer with offensive skills, and will open up a lot of mismatches for Carmelo.

also, let's keep in mind that we can bank on STAT playing about 15 games next year. the guy gets banged up every 5 minutes. in the layup line, walking to the locker room, he is a walking injury. we needed to add another post scorer and we got a good one for Novak, Camby, and a pick that, because of its "swap" with Denver was going to be in the 20s anyway.

good trade for the Knicks

I can agree with everything, except don't underestimate the importance of picks in the 20's. Especially in a very good draft. I would have loved to been able to pick up Wolters this year.
And next year someone will fall and it might bite us depending on how Bargs plays.

It just really sucks to have next to no draft picks the next few years, especially since we can't really buy any it seems.

Yeah.
Bigsmooth, would you have traded Shumpert for Bargs? He was picked close to 20.

no but I would trade Balkman for him. Wasnt he picked in the 20s also?

It is not on equal footing regarding teams picking players. We have way more money than most teams and the league doesn't say how much you can spend on scouts, analytics, background research, etc. Really, we have no reason to fail during a draft. Our selection project should realistically be a large investment on our part, especially since it essentially is a large investment regarding 1st round pick money.

I do like the Bargs trade though. I think he will come through for us and we were between a rock and a hard place as far as finding talent, considering the CBA, our situation, etc.

EMS... cmon man. No reason to fail? Every year the smartest minds in the game are wrong. Every year the most experienced scouts get it wrong. Every year advanced scouting misses players... in every sport.

There is no draft science. Stephen Curry was too skinny to ever be a star... probably just pretty good. We could do this all day. Its good to have picks. The teams that draft the best players over a 20 year period all probably have one thing in common: They all use the draft, so I will give you that.

fish, I am not saying I am some draft expert, but I was one of the few that was high on steph curry... the problem I see is that everyone thinks you need to draft a star with a lottery pick.. If you get a guy that is a borderline allstar, you have done well.. keep adding value picks and players like that and soon you will have a good team, or assets to bargain with...