Knicks · Who should Mike Woodson start for the 2013-14 season (page 3)

I went with

Felton
Shump
MWP
Melo
Chandler

but I think that's how it plays out on offense. On defense it will probably look like

Felton
Shump
Melo
MWP
Chandler

I really love the MWP signing because he has the strength to deal with the bruisers and will allow Melo to out-quick the other team's 4s on offense

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:any SL without Melo in it is a waste of time to post.

Woody is a player's coach despite his rhetoric about keeping guys honest and holding them accountable.

I dont think it matters, but knowing what I know about these players and this coach:
SL: Felton, Shump, Artest, Melo, Chandler
2nd unit: JR, Prigo, Bargs, Amare

Those are the nine I expect Woody to base his rotation around. Anyone else will have to earn minutes.

Lot of old guys in that rotation with tons of mileage. Opportunities will be a plenty

that is dysfunctional starting lineup. bench also dysfunctional.

great feedback. Maybe it would be better if I benched the face of the franchise?

I would say the SL was dysfunctional enough to get the #2 seed and win the Atlantic last year. Woody isnt going to play 2 PGs this year to start, Prigs will come off the bench. Makes sense that Bargs comes off with him as his need for another Euro type player has been well documented. That means Prigs/Bargs to the bench. We also know Woody just loves playing Melo at the 4, so dont expect that to change. The only real debate is if JR starts, and after last year's playoff fizzle I suspect JR keeps the same role he had last year.

first off regular-season records don't mean as much as whether the team is a playoff-ready team. the knicks pursued the division title and second seed at the expense of identity, versatility, and cohesion.

cohesion:

1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

3)the same issue applies to chandler-- playing alongside an ineffective point guard in felton means too few opportunities to be involved in the offense. felton is a below-par pick and roll player who can't make an effective pass in traffic and compulsively leaves his feet too soon because his ability to maintain his dribble is poor. add to this that chandler does not have good hands and you have an underachieving duo. the only play that felton and chandler seem to have down is the poor man's pick and roll/back door, ie the alley-oop play. baron davis did the same exact thing because he has similar limitations.

you are asking shumpert and chandler to take up the defensive slack that felton and carmelo don't provide and at the same time asking them to not be involved offensively. artest doen't mind either way because in some weird way he will be accepting of his duties as a twilight player. but even if he doesn't touch the ball that much the dysfunction i have laid out for you remains....

it would be better to bench felton and start pablo but then that will put the linsanity kibosh on melo and melo can't have none of that as we well know. but the benefit of having prigioni out there with both shumpert and chandler is something to contemplate even if it means pushing melo into disgruntlement.

dk7th wrote:1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

Felton is a starting PG, he's just not a great distributor and field general. He can be effective in the right setup. Remember he was 17/9 under MDA. Felton needs a certain tempo and PnR plays to excel. If you have him in a half court set with a lot of ISO it goes against his abilities. Like I said with a heavy PnR offense under MDA Felton avg'd 9 assists and the Knicks PnR was deadly.

dk7th wrote:2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

I blame Woody for Melo regressing into more selfish BB. This idea that Melo CAN'T play team BB is ridiculous. In January of 2012 Melo actually avg'd 4.6 assists.

The thing is this Knicks roster is stronger than last years team and you've got a nice mix of players to work with. AB will be good in the SL with Melo IMO. He just gives you so much in a 7' body. He can be effective anywhere on the floor. With such a serious threat as Melo on the floor AB will have far less attention than he's see from defenses over the years and that's gonna allow him to really excel.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

Felton is a starting PG, he's just not a great distributor and field general. He can be effective in the right setup. Remember he was 17/9 under MDA. Felton needs a certain tempo and PnR plays to excel. If you have him in a half court set with a lot of ISO it goes against his abilities. Like I said with a heavy PnR offense under MDA Felton avg'd 9 assists and the Knicks PnR was deadly.

dk7th wrote:2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

I blame Woody for Melo regressing into more selfish BB. This idea that Melo CAN'T play team BB is ridiculous. In January of 2012 Melo actually avg'd 4.6 assists.

The thing is this Knicks roster is stronger than last years team and you've got a nice mix of players to work with. AB will be good in the SL with Melo IMO. He just gives you so much in a 7' body. He can be effective anywhere on the floor. With such a serious threat as Melo on the floor AB will have far less attention than he's see from defenses over the years and that's gonna allow him to really excel.

so you are of a mind that woodson encouraged melo doing isolation? instead of the ball movement that was the hallmark of their great start?

how about this instead: melo doesn't have to pass the ball if he doesn't want to and woodson can't do a damn thing about it.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

Felton is a starting PG, he's just not a great distributor and field general. He can be effective in the right setup. Remember he was 17/9 under MDA. Felton needs a certain tempo and PnR plays to excel. If you have him in a half court set with a lot of ISO it goes against his abilities. Like I said with a heavy PnR offense under MDA Felton avg'd 9 assists and the Knicks PnR was deadly.

dk7th wrote:2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

I blame Woody for Melo regressing into more selfish BB. This idea that Melo CAN'T play team BB is ridiculous. In January of 2012 Melo actually avg'd 4.6 assists.

The thing is this Knicks roster is stronger than last years team and you've got a nice mix of players to work with. AB will be good in the SL with Melo IMO. He just gives you so much in a 7' body. He can be effective anywhere on the floor. With such a serious threat as Melo on the floor AB will have far less attention than he's see from defenses over the years and that's gonna allow him to really excel.

so you are of a mind that woodson encouraged melo doing isolation? instead of the ball movement that was the hallmark of their great start?

how about this instead: melo doesn't have to pass the ball if he doesn't want to and woodson can't do a damn thing about it.

How about nobody else could make a shot.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

Felton is a starting PG, he's just not a great distributor and field general. He can be effective in the right setup. Remember he was 17/9 under MDA. Felton needs a certain tempo and PnR plays to excel. If you have him in a half court set with a lot of ISO it goes against his abilities. Like I said with a heavy PnR offense under MDA Felton avg'd 9 assists and the Knicks PnR was deadly.

dk7th wrote:2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

I blame Woody for Melo regressing into more selfish BB. This idea that Melo CAN'T play team BB is ridiculous. In January of 2012 Melo actually avg'd 4.6 assists.

The thing is this Knicks roster is stronger than last years team and you've got a nice mix of players to work with. AB will be good in the SL with Melo IMO. He just gives you so much in a 7' body. He can be effective anywhere on the floor. With such a serious threat as Melo on the floor AB will have far less attention than he's see from defenses over the years and that's gonna allow him to really excel.

so you are of a mind that woodson encouraged melo doing isolation? instead of the ball movement that was the hallmark of their great start?

how about this instead: melo doesn't have to pass the ball if he doesn't want to and woodson can't do a damn thing about it.

How about nobody else could make a shot.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:1)felton is by no means a starting point guard and his need to have kidd or prigioni out there with him is positively damning. yet you would have him out there as a starter anyway and without prigioni to boot.

Felton is a starting PG, he's just not a great distributor and field general. He can be effective in the right setup. Remember he was 17/9 under MDA. Felton needs a certain tempo and PnR plays to excel. If you have him in a half court set with a lot of ISO it goes against his abilities. Like I said with a heavy PnR offense under MDA Felton avg'd 9 assists and the Knicks PnR was deadly.

dk7th wrote:2)shumpert will not like having to be in the backcourt with felton, and having to be on the court with carmelo is just a study in frustration for any player really. the "carmelo will draw double teams and leave players open" only works if you actually pass the ball. melo doesn't so that line of thinking is of the wishful variety. look at his usage rate relative to his assist rate to have this confirmed. and he got worse in the playoffs: more holding on to the ball and fewer assists made while he was on the floor.

I blame Woody for Melo regressing into more selfish BB. This idea that Melo CAN'T play team BB is ridiculous. In January of 2012 Melo actually avg'd 4.6 assists.

The thing is this Knicks roster is stronger than last years team and you've got a nice mix of players to work with. AB will be good in the SL with Melo IMO. He just gives you so much in a 7' body. He can be effective anywhere on the floor. With such a serious threat as Melo on the floor AB will have far less attention than he's see from defenses over the years and that's gonna allow him to really excel.

so you are of a mind that woodson encouraged melo doing isolation? instead of the ball movement that was the hallmark of their great start?

how about this instead: melo doesn't have to pass the ball if he doesn't want to and woodson can't do a damn thing about it.

How about nobody else could make a shot.

they are going to have to work through those alleged limitations, absorb a few more regular-season losses, instead of taking the path of least resistance that led them nowhere in the playoffs.

i say "alleged" because of the effect melo has on teammates, ie he makes them worse and less confident because of the way he plays the game. he doesn't play the game the right way so it becomes a bit of a catch-22-- unless woodson benches his azz for not playing the right way.

Vmart wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

Vmart wrote:I would start.
Melo sf
Barg of
Amare c
Shump sg
Felton pg

If Amare was an ironman and durable, Id go this way too as I think he is more effective at C. Rebounding would potentially be horrible woth those two downlow but Id give it a try.

Now, since Amare is Mr. Crystal, thats a "no no".

The reason I would start Amare is we need to get him out of the way. I don't believe in the minutes rule with any player as they can be injured any given minute. Another thing is if Amare is somehow healthy the Knicks are served better by having Amare on the floor. Any way you look at it Amare is the second superstar the team really needs I don't like the idea of making him a bench player.

I have a problem with his minutes restriction too. Bring him in and get him going. Let's see what he's going to bring to the table. His greatest use has always been on the offensive end. If he's rolling, do you take him out. This will be the missing piece to the puzzle. Tentatively, we have a big four if both he AND Bargnani get turned up.

We can start Shump, Ron, and Tyson, whoever and bring in the second unit early. But it probably should be Ray, JR, Melo, Bargs, Amare down the stretch if we want the most talent out there. But with Amare's minute cap he'll probably be restricted to the second unit and Woody loves benching his offense even though that's our strength.

I think Artest will start and I have zero confidence in Amare, I think the Knicks feel the same way.

Felts(28)/Priggy(10)PG3(10)
Shumps(28)/Priggy(10)JR(10)
Metta(26)/JR(22)(Hardaway if JR isn't ready)
Melo(32)/Bargs(16)
TC(24)/Kmart(14)/Bargs(8)

That's how I would Roll....................

The last time Tyson played 70+ games he played under 30 minutes a night. That probably should be a goal for Woodson. Mixing in Bargs, Amare, KMart with Tyson should help to keep those minutes down.

Umm Amare is actually healthy now. If he is going down he is going down. Whether its 20 or 40mins. 20mins only means he will go down just in time for the playoffs.

Wanna tell me Amare is not in the Knicks future plans then I will buy that

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:as phil jackson said last year and it is even more the case this season: THE ROSTER IS CLUMSY

My thoughts^ Woodson gonna have a ball with Bargnani, Amare and Melo trying to get them to defend and rebound. This is a Dantoni squad again. Should be entertaining to see

I don't disagree on the clumsiness, but no team with MElo on it is ever really going to be a MDA squad. The dude is too selfish.

gunsnewing wrote:Umm Amare is actually healthy now. If he is going down he is going down. Whether its 20 or 40mins. 20mins only means he will go down just in time for the playoffs.

Wanna tell me Amare is not in the Knicks future plans then I will buy that

It will be interesting to see how Amare holds up since he is supposed to just be doing water work this offseason. I know that extended Dyess's career after his second knee injury. Although the blog article about Amare's debridement surgery yesterday was pretty discouraging.

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Umm Amare is actually healthy now. If he is going down he is going down. Whether its 20 or 40mins. 20mins only means he will go down just in time for the playoffs.

Wanna tell me Amare is not in the Knicks future plans then I will buy that

It will be interesting to see how Amare holds up since he is supposed to just be doing water work this offseason. I know that extended Dyess's career after his second knee injury. Although the blog article about Amare's debridement surgery yesterday was pretty discouraging.

you mention water work and now on my mind is the weight room,

do you think these guys in the nba, do they barbell squat below parallel?

IronWillGiroud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Umm Amare is actually healthy now. If he is going down he is going down. Whether its 20 or 40mins. 20mins only means he will go down just in time for the playoffs.

Wanna tell me Amare is not in the Knicks future plans then I will buy that

It will be interesting to see how Amare holds up since he is supposed to just be doing water work this offseason. I know that extended Dyess's career after his second knee injury. Although the blog article about Amare's debridement surgery yesterday was pretty discouraging.

you mention water work and now on my mind is the weight room,

do you think these guys in the nba, do they barbell squat below parallel?

Well Amare was out with a bad back and then his knees finally gave out. Hopefully he doesn't. Not sure about squats though. There are sport specific workouts. I have always been scared that I would hurt something squatting and then have to stop working out altogether so I have stayed away from squats.

CrushAlot wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Umm Amare is actually healthy now. If he is going down he is going down. Whether its 20 or 40mins. 20mins only means he will go down just in time for the playoffs.

Wanna tell me Amare is not in the Knicks future plans then I will buy that

It will be interesting to see how Amare holds up since he is supposed to just be doing water work this offseason. I know that extended Dyess's career after his second knee injury. Although the blog article about Amare's debridement surgery yesterday was pretty discouraging.

you mention water work and now on my mind is the weight room,

do you think these guys in the nba, do they barbell squat below parallel?

Well Amare was out with a bad back and then his knees finally gave out. Hopefully he doesn't. Not sure about squats though. There are sport specific workouts. I have always been scared that I would hurt something squatting and then have to stop working out altogether so I have stayed away from squats.

no man, NO NO NO NO NO , NO MAN!!

PROPERLY PERFORMED BARBELL SQUATS ARE THE SAFEST EXERCISE FOR ANY MAN, IN ANY COUNTRY, ON ANY CONTINENT, IN ANY SOLAR SYSTEM

BRO OMFG

loweyecue wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

dk7th wrote:as phil jackson said last year and it is even more the case this season: THE ROSTER IS CLUMSY

My thoughts^ Woodson gonna have a ball with Bargnani, Amare and Melo trying to get them to defend and rebound. This is a Dantoni squad again. Should be entertaining to see

I don't disagree on the clumsiness, but no team with MElo on it is ever really going to be a MDA squad. The dude is too selfish.

who is your starting lineup. i gave two versions:

group A

prigioni
shumpert
artest
bargiani
chandler

which was roundly dismissed, and then suggested as a starting lineup

group B

felton
smith
artest
anthony
stoudemire

my theory being i'd rather have the greatest chance at cohering with one less-talented group A more of the time than try to put mismatched talent out there. you could even swap bargnani and stoudemire but that is the ONLY swap i would make.

and i think half-measures of trying to mix these lineups in any way really results in a weaker whole. but this is going to be the way the feckless woodson will go.

i'd bet dollars to donuts the lineup i propose group A will yield the best results over time if it ever managed to materialize.

CrushAlot wrote:The last time Tyson played 70+ games he played under 30 minutes a night. That probably should be a goal for Woodson. Mixing in Bargs, Amare, KMart with Tyson should help to keep those minutes down.

Only way Chandler plays 70+ games is if you send him to a third world country and expose him to all sorts of flu symptoms to increase his immunity levels. It's obvious the flu shot isn't working for him.

PG could constantly change from Pablo, Felton, and even Murry for his DEFENSIVE abilities
JR/Iman *For JR, if healthy with the improved ability to create/facilitate/penetrate when he did consistently for a couple stretches, he played his best BBALL when he played with a mobile C and extra shooters to space the floor with improved skills with handling/penetrating/creating, it just doesn't work with Chandler with his limitations and loss of physical abilities with speed/athleticism*
Melo
Bargnani/Artest
Kmart/Chandler/Bargs

My opinion is that ANYONE listed here COULD START and I likely would not start Amare because of his defensive limitations in addition to his minute restriction
Last season, once he got back his legs/rythme, he showed he was capable of carrying our offense single handedly with his post up abilities and training with Hakeem's could benefit as 2nd summer coming

keeping Kmart was huge in my opinion and the next 3 spots *CJ Leslie, I just don't think he is ready and would likely only keep 1 roster spot for development between Leslie/Tyler*
Because of our defensive limitations in these positions with PG, SF, C, and PF, we find ourselves with an extra need for roster spots

Felton/Pablo CANNOT DEFEND the PG or SG positions *too many PG's, back up PG's, and 3rd string PG's*
Bargs/Amare both cannot defend PF/C positions *almost ANYONE in the league, probably has a chance vs some backups though*

Melo/Artest are not good at defending SF's with their lack of speed, having a problem with contesting shooters like Parsons, Delfino, Bundinger, Webster, Dunleavy and many "role players" in the league, unable to use their strength, then with PF's are they really big, long, or strong enough for the likes of KG/West/Duncan/Dirk/Love/Aldridge/Boozer/Josh Smith/Earl Clark/Kelly Olynck, and what about the versatile scores like

Lebron
Durant

Paul George

*Artest might be able to defend some of these players at times but would need help, JR and Iman are likely too small to defend these players but probably our best defenders*
Granger
Rudy Gay
Battum
Tobias Harris
Paul Pierce

If I was Woodson, I would say "EVERYONE plays an important role and EVERYONE will get minutes in the season, so be ready to perform because your number will be called upon, we are a DEEP TEAM and I INTEND TO USE THIS AS OUR ADVANTAGE"
"I intend to use different starting lineups against different matchups and that is just the way it is going to be"
"This depth will allow us to play at 110% on BOTH OFFENSE AND DEFENSE with the minutes distributed, 6 hard fouls and a no layup policy, and I EXPECT NOTHING LESS from ANY OF YOU"

PHILOSOPHY #1 and #2

1- PLAY AS A TEAM, MOVE THE BALL to the OPEN MAN, FIND/COMMUNICATE on both ends WITH THE WEAKNESS of opponents and STRENGTH of the skills of our PLAYERs/MATCHUP's and play off them, UTILIZE EVERYONE AS A THREAT, USE PICKS on OFF/BALL create mismatches

2- MAKE YOUR OPPONENT WORK, FATIGUED/TIRED/EXHAUSTED ON BOTH OFFENSE/DEFENSE

And NOT what he said last season with, "It isn't who start's but who finishes the game that is important" regarding JR Smith because he took basically bashed Amare and the rest of the 10 players on the roster with that comment

I believe for the benefit of the team with many players with flaws, we will have to implement different strategies based upon different matchups in addition to the strengths and weakness's of our own players/units/rotations and opponents lineups/roster/rotations
This would require very much communication, TEAM chemistry, basketball IQ, sacrifices, and a lot of extra work for the coaches/assistant coaches to prepare for in games/practices/opponent scouting reports

1- different lineups *including starting lineups*
2- rotations
3- philosophies on OFF and DEFENSE

Will this happen?
Or Will Woodson continue with his STUBBORN, uncreative/simple, and one dimensional/philosophies?
Would have liked to see some assistant coaching changes to implement the above strategies/philosophies/player development

Positions to fill with 3 roster spots
===========================================

PG
PG/SG

SF/PF

PF/C

C

PG/SG
=========
I think these are the positions that we need to fill with 3 roster spots, which ones will be up to Grunweld and Woody to figure out
Murry or a combo guard seems to be the spot we need most, and with Murry's defensive abilities I think he will likely get a spot if he shows he can defend in training camp/preseason in addition to his ability to handle the ball

Felton/Pablo both show that they are unable to stay in front of opponents PG's and for everyone saying Nate Robinson has poor DEFENSE, he is ahead of both of our "Point Guards"
Cp3 is not as small as Nate, but he is one of the better defenders in the position, I think people just look at Robinson's height and assume he is poor defender without actually watching him play
Both players are quite under rated on DEF and do not get abused on post up's like many assume because of their height
They are both very strong, athletic, agile, and fast/quick with good hands/anticipation for steals

Pablo is better "leader" with a pass first mentality but without the ability to finish a layup or get a shot off *if the defender did want to allow him to so with a playoff contender and during a play off game because the intensity goes up, because of Pablo's lack of speed, they would be able to recover and stay close to him in a 1v1 scenario like Novak*

Legit SF
=============
we don't have a legit REAL SF, we have SG/SF's in JR, Iman, Hardway Jr, and SF/PF's in Melo/Metta/CJ Leslie

LEGIT Center
=================
with the size/strength of the bigs on Pacers, Bulls, Nets, and Cleveland, we would likely need a BIG BODY and LEGIT Center that is strong enough to contend, tire out these guys, and defend at a high level
Unfortunately, we only have the vet min salary to offer