Knicks · Moneyball: Pack-the-paint; Why the Knicks shoot 3's => why Bargnani is a good fit (page 2)
nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.
Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
I don't mean to say I deserve a medal or anything, but I pretty much predicted those almost exact numbers. Or more accurately I poked my finger at the sky and my, perhaps, overboard optimism was pretty accurate. As for Bargs, I expect him to have a career year with us. His numbers went down when he became the focal point, so he makes a better 2nd option. Melo will draw more double teams than anyone he has ever played with, so I see a great opportunity for Il Mago
ramtour420 wrote:nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
I don't mean to say I deserve a medal or anything, but I pretty much predicted those almost exact numbers. Or more accurately I poked my finger at the sky and my, perhaps, overboard optimism was pretty accurate. As for Bargs, I expect him to have a career year with us. His numbers went down when he became the focal point, so he makes a better 2nd option. Melo will draw more double teams than anyone he has ever played with, so I see a great opportunity for Il Mago
He's been the #2 or 3 option most of his career. In most years, 1 or more of the following took more FGAs per game than Bargnani: Bosh, Gay, Derozan, Parker, TJ Ford,
Bonn1997 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
I don't mean to say I deserve a medal or anything, but I pretty much predicted those almost exact numbers. Or more accurately I poked my finger at the sky and my, perhaps, overboard optimism was pretty accurate. As for Bargs, I expect him to have a career year with us. His numbers went down when he became the focal point, so he makes a better 2nd option. Melo will draw more double teams than anyone he has ever played with, so I see a great opportunity for Il Mago
He's been the #2 or 3 option most of his career. In most years, 1 or more of the following took more FGAs per game than Bargnani: Bosh, Gay, Derozan, Parker, TJ Ford,
yeah but really bonnie, does FGA really mean #1 option? I can see Bosh and perhaps Gay, but those others are certainly not #1 options for a team. Gay played how many games with Bargs that would warrant mention?
I think the clear cut point is that Melo is heads and above more than the likes of what Bargs has played with.
Bonn1997 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
I don't mean to say I deserve a medal or anything, but I pretty much predicted those almost exact numbers. Or more accurately I poked my finger at the sky and my, perhaps, overboard optimism was pretty accurate. As for Bargs, I expect him to have a career year with us. His numbers went down when he became the focal point, so he makes a better 2nd option. Melo will draw more double teams than anyone he has ever played with, so I see a great opportunity for Il Mago
He's been the #2 or 3 option most of his career. In most years, 1 or more of the following took more FGAs per game than Bargnani: Bosh, Gay, Derozan, Parker, TJ Ford,
Thank you for proving my point. None of those guys you listed require constant double coverage
Vmart wrote:
Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
VMart - give it a rest. no one shoots 50 per cent. No one.
Dissing a player, in August, before he has played a single game in orange and blue is so tacky it is ridiculous.
Basketball is a team sport. The combination and mesh of talent is the key. Not silly shot percentages or personal bias. The only thing that meters is that Knicks players start to develop trust and cohesion. The rest is just window dressing.
Stop the madness.
misterearl wrote:Bargnani will be a mystery until we see how he plays this season. We cant call him a bust but we cant call him a steal either because he has had a few down years. I hope for our sakes he finally lives up to expectationsVmart wrote:
Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.VMart - give it a rest. no one shoots 50 per cent. No one.
Dissing a player, in August, before he has played a single game in orange and blue is so tacky it is ridiculous.
Basketball is a team sport. The combination and mesh of talent is the key. Not silly shot percentages or personal bias. The only thing that meters is that Knicks players start to develop trust and cohesion. The rest is just window dressing.
Stop the madness.
ramtour420 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:nixluva wrote:When AB is healthy exactly who is going to guard him? He's too big for smalls and too quick for bigs. It's the typical mismatch you want, that forces teams to double and open up the floor and when he doesn't have the ball he's drawing a defender and again opening the floor. AB doesn't have to be a great 3pt shooter or even a high volume 3pt shooter. He simply has to be a believable threat in order to help weaken opposing defenses.Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.
How long have you been watching BB that you don't believe it's possible for a talented player to be coached up? AB just needs to be put in the right situations in order to excel. ie Felton in an MDA styled offense was able to post 17/9. NO ONE ever thought he could put up those kinds of numbers, however, with the right coaching and putting him in spots where he would only excel helped. You can take a player and use him improperly and that will limit his effectiveness. There have been so many Knicks players that we've seen this happen to and I think AB is simply waiting to be coached properly and used in a way that will maximize his talent. That will make him more confident and he'll mentally be much stronger.
For his entire career which includes his starting years and the last 2 injury filled years AB shot 44% and 36% from 3. With more post ups he can easily improve on his efficiency and by attacking the basket more he'll get to the line more. These are minor changes in shot selection that a coach can help him improve on. If you think they'll just bring AB in and let him wing it you're mistaken. They haven't done that with any Knick player. Woody always looks to help his players improve, but it's up to that player to take up the challenge. Hard to believe AB won't be up for it with this 2nd chance.
I don't mean to say I deserve a medal or anything, but I pretty much predicted those almost exact numbers. Or more accurately I poked my finger at the sky and my, perhaps, overboard optimism was pretty accurate. As for Bargs, I expect him to have a career year with us. His numbers went down when he became the focal point, so he makes a better 2nd option. Melo will draw more double teams than anyone he has ever played with, so I see a great opportunity for Il Mago
He's been the #2 or 3 option most of his career. In most years, 1 or more of the following took more FGAs per game than Bargnani: Bosh, Gay, Derozan, Parker, TJ Ford,
Thank you for proving my point. None of those guys you listed require constant double coverage
Your revised point?
Anyway, Chris Bosh was an efficient 22 to 25 PPG player in Toronto.
Regardless, this will all get settled on the court soon enough. I hope you're right. I would never predict that a veteran will do things he hasn't done before though. It's a bad gamble.
StarksEwing1 wrote:misterearl wrote:Bargnani will be a mystery until we see how he plays this season. We cant call him a bust but we cant call him a steal either because he has had a few down years. I hope for our sakes he finally lives up to expectationsVmart wrote:
Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.VMart - give it a rest. no one shoots 50 per cent. No one.
Dissing a player, in August, before he has played a single game in orange and blue is so tacky it is ridiculous.
Basketball is a team sport. The combination and mesh of talent is the key. Not silly shot percentages or personal bias. The only thing that meters is that Knicks players start to develop trust and cohesion. The rest is just window dressing.
Stop the madness.
Novak. Camby. Draft picks. For a 7 footer who used to regularly strike fear into us whenever we played him.
Welcome to the UK, where every move is a guilty bust until proven innocent. Optimism, die, die, die!
Maybe there's actually a Raptors fan somewhere who's worried about Bargs coming back to haunt them...
misterearl wrote:Vmart wrote:
Why was he not able to do this with Raptors. I think it's wishful thinking to expect something he has not been able to do. He is an overrated shooter a 7' player that shoots 43% he should easily be at 50% if he is as talented as what some are making him out to be. He is a soft player and more often than not will jack up a perimeter shot instead of going to the basket and creating a higher percentage shot.VMart - give it a rest. no one shoots 50 per cent. No one.
Dissing a player, in August, before he has played a single game in orange and blue is so tacky it is ridiculous.
Basketball is a team sport. The combination and mesh of talent is the key. Not silly shot percentages or personal bias. The only thing that meters is that Knicks players start to develop trust and cohesion. The rest is just window dressing.
Stop the madness.
misterearl. let me ask this question. Has there ever been a knick player acquired that you didn't like? I don't like bumping old threads, but i will bring up this link..
the reason why I posted this, is because you will go to great lengths to defend anyone the knicks get, even when the evidence is staring your right there in your face that you are wrong(for the record I said it then and I will say it now.. brewer is and was a bum)... you will try to make 2+2= 22 when it comes to the knicks. I honestly ask you, what was your opinion of Bargnani before we got him? I am not saying he is a bum, I said he does have some talent, but the overall package isn't that good and not what we needed.. Yet I have seen you sell him, the same way you sold brewer...
edit:
you know what earl. I removed the link. I didn't want to do that to you.. but I will say.. think back to your "the ronnie Brewer principle" thread, and you will see what I mean...
Copeland was not utilized much when it counted most, even when it was obvious to EVERYONE we needed to find a way to pull Hibbert out of the paint
What makes AB different?
Is AB really an upgrade vs Copeland and if so, in what areas?
What are AB and Amare's weakness's?
How could we make up for those area's, are we willing to play both of them together for those reasons?
I feel we have more of a team built for Dantoni, Dantoni ever had for more than 1/2 a season as a Knick
martin wrote:yeah but really bonnie, does FGA really mean #1 option? I can see Bosh and perhaps Gay, but those others are certainly not #1 options for a team. Gay played how many games with Bargs that would warrant mention?I think the clear cut point is that Melo is heads and above more than the likes of what Bargs has played with.
Unrelated to the thread, but this post reminded me of the Pacers' 1991 season, when Chuck Person took more shots than Reggie Miller, even though Reggie was clearly 'the man' on that team. http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/7/1/448...
The problem is that Bargnani has not been a useful player for many years. I'll let Tom Ziller have the floor:
You'll be pleased to learn that over the past two seasons Bargnani, a 7-footer, has shot 72-238 (.302) on three-pointers. Novak, a far cheaper piece headed to Canada in the deal, is 282-633 (.445) in that same span. And stunningly, Novak -- who is an awful rebounder at power forward and even mediocre at small forward -- is an equivalent rebounder to Bargnani adjusted for position. Among all 7-footers in Basketball-Reference's database who played at least 1,000 career minutes, Bargnani has the third lowest rebound rate. Also, he's terrible on defense, has a career assist-to-turnover deficit and is often injured.
While the first-round draft pick is likely to be in the 20s, it's still a potential asset to use to acquire cheap talent that could fill the role Bargnani would play anyway. Many picks in the 20s don't pan out, but by surrendering the selection, you're not giving yourself a chance. For a team that is consistently up against the luxury tax, finding useful players late in the first round, like the Knicks did with Iman Shumpert, increases the ceiling of the roster.
tkf wrote:some interesting info on the trade, it is a bit old but hits the nail on the head..Hasn't Bargs been hurt the past two years? The years prior to that Bargs was 21 and 5, and 17 and 6. Novak was in Bargs draft class so really don't have top cherry pick numbers. Both guys have been in the league for 7 years. Novak was 1.6 and .7, and 4 and 1 the two previous years.http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/7/1/448...
The problem is that Bargnani has not been a useful player for many years. I'll let Tom Ziller have the floor:
You'll be pleased to learn that over the past two seasons Bargnani, a 7-footer, has shot 72-238 (.302) on three-pointers. Novak, a far cheaper piece headed to Canada in the deal, is 282-633 (.445) in that same span. And stunningly, Novak -- who is an awful rebounder at power forward and even mediocre at small forward -- is an equivalent rebounder to Bargnani adjusted for position. Among all 7-footers in Basketball-Reference's database who played at least 1,000 career minutes, Bargnani has the third lowest rebound rate. Also, he's terrible on defense, has a career assist-to-turnover deficit and is often injured.While the first-round draft pick is likely to be in the 20s, it's still a potential asset to use to acquire cheap talent that could fill the role Bargnani would play anyway. Many picks in the 20s don't pan out, but by surrendering the selection, you're not giving yourself a chance. For a team that is consistently up against the luxury tax, finding useful players late in the first round, like the Knicks did with Iman Shumpert, increases the ceiling of the roster.
CrushAlot wrote:tkf wrote:some interesting info on the trade, it is a bit old but hits the nail on the head..Hasn't Bargs been hurt the past two years? The years prior to that Bargs was 21 and 5, and 17 and 6. Novak was in Bargs draft class so really don't have top cherry pick numbers. Both guys have been in the league for 7 years. Novak was 1.6 and .7, and 4 and 1 the two previous years.http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/7/1/448...
The problem is that Bargnani has not been a useful player for many years. I'll let Tom Ziller have the floor:
You'll be pleased to learn that over the past two seasons Bargnani, a 7-footer, has shot 72-238 (.302) on three-pointers. Novak, a far cheaper piece headed to Canada in the deal, is 282-633 (.445) in that same span. And stunningly, Novak -- who is an awful rebounder at power forward and even mediocre at small forward -- is an equivalent rebounder to Bargnani adjusted for position. Among all 7-footers in Basketball-Reference's database who played at least 1,000 career minutes, Bargnani has the third lowest rebound rate. Also, he's terrible on defense, has a career assist-to-turnover deficit and is often injured.While the first-round draft pick is likely to be in the 20s, it's still a potential asset to use to acquire cheap talent that could fill the role Bargnani would play anyway. Many picks in the 20s don't pan out, but by surrendering the selection, you're not giving yourself a chance. For a team that is consistently up against the luxury tax, finding useful players late in the first round, like the Knicks did with Iman Shumpert, increases the ceiling of the roster.
those are empty calorie stats. it's not what you should be looking at if you want to justify your hopes.
you should be looking at HOW he is getting those numbers. and while you're at it you can also look at his usage rate compared with the percentage of time his team gets assists with him on the floor.