Knicks · Donnie Walsh hurt the Knicks!! He is at best an average GM who doesn't take risks. (page 3)

The only thing I blame Walsh for is signing with NY.
He should know better what he is getting into.
But still he decided to help this bunch of losers (and Stern and Co were pushing him hard for this).
He definitely get paid very good for this and this is the only thing Dolan does well.
He made the worst team in pro sports relevant and watchable in 2 years which is probably the best result ever in NBA.
Now he is responsible of Dolan idiotic management... Nice try.

Nalod wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Who gives Amare $100mil uninsured dollars? Only the Knicks. Both are to blame. Mostly Walsh because we already know Dolan is an idiot but he's not GM

Really? We clearly have an owner who publicly disregarded his GM in the Melo deal. What GM makes 100mm decisions?

Not sure your stance but some around here lauded Grunny as exec of the year for the Billups amnesty and signing Tyson. Now its a "mistake" in hindsight!!

How many teams can eat a 14mm contract and sign another? Tyson's first year basically cost 28mm!!!! We could have bought Billups out I think for 4mm a few months earlier. The 4mm would have been on our cap and we would not have had the room for Tyson.

Its great that Dolan has the money for stuff like that but it also a reaccuring theme with Knicks to make short term decisions.

Layden? He was the one who gave Alan that crazy contract and when questioned on it, he said it was the right thing to do and sent a message to free agents. That was not Dolan's doing. Dolan did interfere with the Melo trade (I believe) but, Dolan is also know for giving his GM's total control and autonomy.

donnie worked a small miracle for us,

that it has gotten ugly since is not donnie's fault,

i like what grundawg is doing now with expert patching, we're shakey but can rattle the cage a little bit,

next big point is the free agent year

I'm not dissolving Grunwald of blame but he has found more talent than any GM since Isiah. I think he would do a Great job if he actually had resources to work with. Donnie and Dolan left the cupboard bare. Not amnestying Amare was a huge mistake in hindsight but his other moves were good. Except when he overpays and adds extra yrs and picks to deals but the Knicks are always dealing at a disadvantage because of their cap situation that Walsh and Dolan created

arkrud wrote:There is a good saying - "Do not show half-done job to a fool"
Donne was half-way into his plan when Dolan scratched everything with panic run for Melo.
Walsh started with laughing joke of a team and almost get it to relevance... before Dolan put a hammer on it.
Some people are getting some comfort in finding escape-goats knowing that the problem we have (Dolan) is not fixable.

wow you are gooooood! sums up the whole shebang. thanks for sharing that arkrud.

Akrud makes a fair point and its most likely the reason Donnie bailed. I just don't trust that Donnie would make the right moves after not going after Melo. He is the guy who hired Dantoni over mark Jackson and signed Amare. And drafted Jordan Hill and all the other bad deals like McGrady and losing Randolph, crawful, steph and lee for nothing

OP wrote this based on Marc Berman article FYI

here's a gold mine to explore-- really takes you back to the final weeks and days:

http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/donnie_w...

Silverfuel wrote:I started this thread because of today's NY Post article comparing the 2008 Knicks to now. So this thread is not out of the blue. Also, to all those saying threads revisiting the past are pointless, if you think its pointless, why comment on this thread? Most of you will be willing to jump into any thread vilifying Melo and Isiah. But when someone attacks Donnie Walsh you think the thread is pointless and crying over spilled milk. Why, cause he was polite?

I particularly liked your lumping of bad moves like:
1) trading Mardy Collins
2) Drafting Landry Fields
with
3) Signing Melo

Donnie took us out of the Dark Ages of the bubonic plague of IT loves Anucha/Marbles/Larry at the drive-thru/The courtship of Eddy's driver and got us to today. Welcome to division champs, 13 game win streaks and the second round. Do you miss 2008? Or is this just an exercise in wah wah wah I want my Bronny! Do you actually miss DLee and his meaningless double doubles and even more meaningless invisa-D? Jamal Crawford and his stellar shot selection? Zach Randolph? Are you pining for the actual Zach Randolph we had, or the Zach Randolph who lives in Memphis? Did you cry the day when Donnie got rid of Jerome James?

This franchise was so bad, the commisioner had to step in and appoint Donnie to come in and clean up the wet pile of steaming, runny sheet it had become.

Is Grunny in the position he's in if Donnie isn't here first?

2008, Happy Days they were, huh?

Nalod wrote:Donnie was bought in to clear the cap and make a run at Lebron.

Owner sets the directive. Thats my belief. Whole world knows we clearing cap so the price goes up.

Whats with the whole "Blame" thing anyway?

Donnie gone a while now, and I don't see any reason to bring it up for the 50th time.

I can ignore it, but what fun would that be.

Y'all remember my stance son things? Im flattered!

BTW, don't forget this when evaluating the Pacers:
I

n July 2011, Pritchard joined the Indiana Pacers to become their Director of Player Personnel.[13] Later on, he was promoted to general manager in June 2012 to replace David Morway.

Go back and remember the Isiah years and look up the records. It was pretty bad. Shyt on Walsh all you want but he is the guy that had to clean up the stench.

I disagree about Walsh following a directive. I think Walsh was brought in because he had a fondness for Isiah and of the candidates suggested by Stern he was the guy that wouldn't just can Isiah. I also think Dolan is pretty hands off and lets his basketball people do their thing. Each of his gms have had their own style. Layden went after high character guys with low upside and paid them too much. Isiah was a bit of a flavor of the month guy. He chased talent regardless of chemistry, salary or character issues the player might have. Walsh had his plan of cap clearing and always seemed to have a second move to counter his first (i.e. trade Crawford get Mobley). He also was incredibly loyal to his coach despite the drama and having to move guys that he thought could help the team. Those are all different styles and I don't see Dolan as the guy orchestrating the moves those guys made. Did Dolan say include Moz and get it done. Probably and he was right if he did.

Donnie was doing ok until the Amare deal and not presenting a proper backup plan to Dolan after Lebron went to Miami. I'm not sure if its fair to kill Donnie for where the Knicks stand today though. The Knicks failed as an organization. Constantly changing plans since striking out on Lebron. Keeping Dantoni then adding Melo and Tyson. Not amnestying Amare. We are stuck with Amare. There is nothing to even talk about til 2015. The current team should play decent basketball now that they actually have a pg who can see the floor, make the right pass and actually hit an open jumpshot like an NBA pg. don't see us finishing any better than 5th though and 1st or 2nd rd exit unless we get it right after 2015

gunsnewing wrote:Donnie was doing ok until the Amare deal and not presenting a proper backup plan to Dolan after Lebron went to Miami. I'm not sure if its fair to kill Donnie for where the Knicks stand today though. The Knicks failed as an organization. Constantly changing plans since striking out on Lebron. Keeping Dantoni then adding Melo and Tyson. Not amnestying Amare. We are stuck with Amare. There is nothing to even talk about til 2015. The current team should play decent basketball now that they actually have a pg who can see the floor, make the right pass and actually hit an open jumpshot like an NBA pg. don't see us finishing any better than 5th though and 1st or 2nd rd exit unless we get it right after 2015

Donny did the team a disservice by not adding conditions to the contract like, an ability to play a specific amount of games per season. The report out of Phoenix said he would need more surgery within a year or so which proved prophetic. Instead, he signed a guy who was a huge injury risk without any sort of protection.

for everyone saying Donnie should have been able to sway Dolan with a back up plan, you do remember this is the same owner who fired a security guard for doing their job, simply because she didn't recognize him?

Ownership drives this mess.

The point of the article was that if we went back to 2008 and played out a rebuild without panic trades like the one for Bargs where we send out 3 picks- and instead kept some of the players that have turned out to be productive elsewhere (Crawford, Lee, Zach) and kept our own draft picks, we might actually have a team as good or better than the one we've created.

I dearly hope Melo signs with LA - just so maybe we're forced to rebuild the right way- which is through the draft- and yest, that is a crap shoot - but with Wade, Riley doesn't get Lebron and Bosh.

franco12 wrote:for everyone saying Donnie should have been able to sway Dolan with a back up plan, you do remember this is the same owner who fired a security guard for doing their job, simply because she didn't recognize him?

Ownership drives this mess.

The point of the article was that if we went back to 2008 and played out a rebuild without panic trades like the one for Bargs where we send out 3 picks- and instead kept some of the players that have turned out to be productive elsewhere (Crawford, Lee, Zach) and kept our own draft picks, we might actually have a team as good or better than the one we've created.

I dearly hope Melo signs with LA - just so maybe we're forced to rebuild the right way- which is through the draft- and yest, that is a crap shoot - but with Wade, Riley doesn't get Lebron and Bosh.

From your mouth to gods ears Franco. I've been echoing the same thing for almost a decade now. Unfortunately it isn't the Dolan way. Heat don't get Lebron if they don't draft wade. Celtics with pierce and rondo lakers Kobe dirk mavs and spurs Duncan etc

You draft one of those studs and if he pans out you lock him up long term. You have his bird rights and then you add pices through trade and free agency like Shaq, kg, Allen, Lebron and gasol. It's not rocket science unless you are Jimmy Bean Dolan

gunsnewing wrote:Akrud makes a fair point and its most likely the reason Donnie bailed. I just don't trust that Donnie would make the right moves after not going after Melo. He is the guy who hired Dantoni over mark Jackson and signed Amare. And drafted Jordan Hill and all the other bad deals like McGrady and losing Randolph, crawful, steph and lee for nothing

One thing I liked about Donnie was that he had a plan and stuck to it until Dolan intervened with Melo trade. Yes, he hired MDA over Action Jackson but he also stuck with that game plan. He went ahead and got MDA the players he needed for his system. Remember when Popcorn man kept changing his plans?

Silverfuel wrote:IMO, Donnie Walsh hurt the Knicks by signing Amare and didn't make us a contender. I don't think he knowingly sabotaged the Knicks but he definitely screwed us with the Amare signing. He didn't build a championship team in Indiana and did not really do much for the Knicks other than acquire Melo. The Melo trade fell in his lap. Melo wanted to come here so Walsh didn't really bring Melo to NYC. And if rumors are true, that was Dolan. These are some of the moves he made as the Knicks GM.
- Hired D'Antoni
- Drafted Gallinari and acquired Chris Duhon (missed out on Brook Lopez and Roy Hibbert)
- Traded Jamal Crawford for Al Harrington
- Traded Mardy Collins and Zach Randolph
- Acquired Larry Hughes, Chris Wilcox and waived Marbury
- Drafted Landry Fields
- Let David Lee walk and signed Amare Stoudemire, Ray Felton and Mozgov
- Traded for Melo

From what I can tell, he traded away talent and signed and drafted injury prone players. Then he left cause Dolan forced him to make the Melo trade. What exactly did he do to make the Knicks a championship team? Signing Amare was his best move and Amare is a bigger injury case than Allan Houston! Donnie Walsh really sucked here. In fact, he wasn't an all-star GM in Indiana either. What has he done to make the Pacers a championship team? Larry Bird got them Paul George and Roy Hibbert! Sure Walsh didn't make as many major blunders as Layden and Isiah Thomas but what major move did he make to improve the Knicks? Amare and Gallo are injury prone, Ray Felton is a decent PG and D'Antoni was terrible.

I like what Grunwald has done. Hope he can figure out a way to trade Amare!

did we let david lee walk, or did we trade him? I thought we traded him for players and picks.. one player and two picks were used in the carmelo deal...

arkrud wrote:The only thing I blame Walsh for is signing with NY.
He should know better what he is getting into.
But still he decided to help this bunch of losers (and Stern and Co were pushing him hard for this).
He definitely get paid very good for this and this is the only thing Dolan does well.
He made the worst team in pro sports relevant and watchable in 2 years which is probably the best result ever in NBA.
Now he is responsible of Dolan idiotic management... Nice try.

+100

Getting players that fit Dantonis system isn't a very good plan if the plan is to win a ring. Add Lebron and screw the system. Any system will work with him. Hiring Dantoni was the wrong move no matter how people slice it

dk7th wrote:here's a gold mine to explore-- really takes you back to the final weeks and days:

http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/donnie_w...

pretty much what i suspected.. just sad.. and now even more sad that people on this forum want to scapegoat walsh...

next stop on the scapegoat deflection tour... Andrea Bargnani...

Speaking for myself i don't make Donnie the scapegoat I blame the entire Knicks organization starting with Dolan. I will remain skeptical for as long as he owns the team. I agree Bargnani will be the new scapegoat when we get bounced early in the playoffs. Lets get it right 2015

DurzoBlint wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Donnie was doing ok until the Amare deal and not presenting a proper backup plan to Dolan after Lebron went to Miami. I'm not sure if its fair to kill Donnie for where the Knicks stand today though. The Knicks failed as an organization. Constantly changing plans since striking out on Lebron. Keeping Dantoni then adding Melo and Tyson. Not amnestying Amare. We are stuck with Amare. There is nothing to even talk about til 2015. The current team should play decent basketball now that they actually have a pg who can see the floor, make the right pass and actually hit an open jumpshot like an NBA pg. don't see us finishing any better than 5th though and 1st or 2nd rd exit unless we get it right after 2015

Donny did the team a disservice by not adding conditions to the contract like, an ability to play a specific amount of games per season. The report out of Phoenix said he would need more surgery within a year or so which proved prophetic. Instead, he signed a guy who was a huge injury risk without any sort of protection.

And you think Amare would have signed that deal? He had a three or 4 year deal with PHX.

Whose money is it? Donnies?

I would credit Dolan for taking the risk if we can can get a good one to work out! Dyce, Eddy, Marbles, Amare!!!

I can't believe some of think the GM has this much power!!!!

Layden resigned H20 because he was honoring a deal! Layden don't hand out 100mm contracts himself!!!!

Since the GM's and coach's we sign have gag orders and don't talk we really have no idea how things work but if we assume there is a logical process and one similar to other teams, then the owner has influence on decisions and the final say!!!

GM's are usually the talking head for the franchise. Usually. Cube speaks more than Donnie Nelson and appears to be very active in the personal decisions.

Donnie ommitting incentives on Amare's contract? Do we really know this was not attempted? If you have half a brain you think donnie don't tell Dolan why PHX won't go long on the kid, that there is not insurance available to cover the loss, and its possible his contract is untradable for a long time?

Like I said, look at Donnies history in Indy and the knicks history. Indy does not have a history of these types of deals.

Donnies worst mistake was likely Austin Croshere:

Croshere was the 12th pick of the 1997 NBA Draft, selected by the Indiana Pacers.

A 6'10", hard-nosed player who can play the power forward and small forward positions, Croshere has shot 33.9% from three-point range over the course of his ten-year career. In the 1999–2000 NBA season, he had peaked at just the right time as he helped the Pacers advance to the 2000 NBA Finals, marking the Pacers' first Finals appearance since the ABA-NBA merger.

He was rewarded for his performance in the regular season and particularly the playoffs with a hefty contract, which the Pacers soon learned to regret as lamentably, Austin never fully lived up to the promise he had shown. In fairness to him, Pacers coach Isiah Thomas seldom used him during the three seasons he coached the team. Croshere played 49 games in 2002-03, averaging a career-low 12.9 minutes per game that season as he fell out of the rotation.

Croshere became an important backup again during the Rick Carlisle years, and was a key contributor against the Detroit Pistons in the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals.

All teams make mistakes. Knicks inpatience would have gotten him out of town but either took a worse contract in return or gave up an asset to intice a team to take his contract. Its our history regardless of the GM.

We burn money. Its Dolans to do what he wants.