Knicks · Knicks can WIN with Bargnani Starting at PF (page 8)

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Did you read the article or just the post?

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Bonn did you actually read the entire article? It's about the way Bargnani scores the ball. The versatility of his skills and his effectiveness compared to other top players in the mid range game, which is what I and others have been pointing to.

So we added a player who can play along with Melo and thrive. Adding in Beno who is also a very good PnP player it all makes sense. It's not about how he played on the Raptors, but how his strengths enhance the Knicks.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Did you read the article or just the post?

When the argument half way through was that bad, I decided the article wasn't worth my time. Maybe I'll look at it more closely tomorrow

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Did you read the article or just the post?

When the argument half way through was that bad, I decided the article wasn't worth my time. Maybe I'll look at it more closely tomorrow

just wwondering. Try overlooking the Copeland stuff.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Bonn did you actually read the entire article? It's about the way Bargnani scores the ball. The versatility of his skills and his effectiveness compared to other top players in the mid range game, which is what I and others have been pointing to.

So we added a player who can play along with Melo and thrive. Adding in Beno who is also a very good PnP player it all makes sense. It's not about how he played on the Raptors, but how his strengths enhance the Knicks.

Also, those numbers are not a one year phenomenon over the last few years he has ranked in the top 5 for bigs as I posted before. Also, his top of key three point shooting usually is pretty high. I do think he will see more corner 3 attempts in this offense so he needs to work on that.

Being able to hit the mid range jumper is a HUGE plus for any PF. When STAT had that elbow jumper down he was a tough player to deal with cuz he was a dual threat to either shoot or drive. AB has that same skillset. He's able to hit the jumper or pump fake and drive. AB can also run PnP, post up and hit the 3, so basically he's a threat anywhere on the floor. It will make an impact having him on the floor with Melo. Having AB helps to make the offense less dependent on Melo and JR. In addition adding Beno also help to make the offense more versatile. Now it's not just ISO or 3pt'ers.

I would have been more impressed with the article id they did all of Bargs numbers for the last 4-5 yrs and look at the shot location/ with fg % of Novak,Copeland,and Brewer to get an understanding of where Bargs shots might come in this offense.

This video breakdown is a perfect example of why we need Bargnani and how having him play PF can really benefit the team on offense and defense.

One thing I noticed is the awful offensive sets the Knicks ran. Also there just weren't enough real threats on the floor even tho we had Melo playing PF, it just doesn't work the same in the playoffs. Some on this forum think we can hide Melo on defense at the 4 but just watch the end of this video where they isolate Melo's poor defensive decisions.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:
This is a great article. Yes it does back up pretty much what I and others have been saying about Bargnani.

http://angryknickblog.wordpress.com/2013...

I did some research. It turns out that even in Bargnani’s worst year as a pro, he’s more versatile of an offensive player that can help open the floor for Carmelo while still being able to score himself than Copeland was.

This past year was by far Andrea Bargnani’s worst year in the NBA. He was riddled by injury, he was booed out of the building, he shot poorly… he was about to be amnestied for God’s sake (source: none)! Meanwhile, Chris Copeland finally made an NBA roster, he became a fan-favorite, and wouldn’t you know it, he actually HELPED his team win some [regular season] games. To compare the two, we’ll start out with their shot charts, separated by zone:

Here’s what we can draw from this:

* For a guy who was labeled a three point specialist by experts and bloggers all over the interwebs, Bargnani sure does take a lot of mid-range jumpers. Actually, he took almost 70 more mid-range jumpers than he did three-pointers. And he only took 13 more three-pointers than he did shots in the paint.
* Chris Copeland is almost as bad from mid-range as Bargnani is from three-point range. He only took 69 mid-range shots last year actually, as opposed to 135 three-pointers. But if you’re going by the theory that all that matters are three-pointers, this is irrelevant.
* Copeland is obviously better down low. He’s a better offensive rebounder and, according to Synergy, most of his points came in the paint off offensive rebounds. Let’s get real, no one is feeding either Cope or Bargs in the post.

So right off the bat, it seems like calling Bargnani one-dimensional or labeling him a three-point shooter is inaccurate. Well at least we tried. But where it really becomes apparent that Bargnani is way more of a versatile player that can really help the offense is when you break down those zones, like so:

So what conclusions can we draw from this?

For starters, Andrea Bargnani can hit from a lot more places on the floor than Copeland can.

They're evaluating players based on # of shots taken? WTF?
I could take a lot of shots too. That doesn't make me better than Chris Copeland.

Bonn did you actually read the entire article? It's about the way Bargnani scores the ball. The versatility of his skills and his effectiveness compared to other top players in the mid range game, which is what I and others have been pointing to.

So we added a player who can play along with Melo and thrive. Adding in Beno who is also a very good PnP player it all makes sense. It's not about how he played on the Raptors, but how his strengths enhance the Knicks.

it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

A few more lowlights of Melo Defensive mistakes.

As long as we have Melo as our leading minutes man there's no way to avoid the fact that he's not a good defensive player. Trying to hide him doesn't work. AB isn't a good defensive player overall, but at least his Man D against PF's is really good and his length does have an impact near the basket. Bargnani and Tyson at PF and C is a better look IMO.

tkf wrote:it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

NO! I'm using my common sense. If you add a 7' player who can score from everywhre on the floor, is a top of the league PnP/PnR player, can post, pump fake n drive and hit the 3, then this is a player who can play well next to Melo because no matter what Melo wants to do he can fit in. If Melo is in the high post, AB can go low. They can switch places with ease because AB can shoot from anywhere. What don't you get about that? Explain to us how that doesn't work in your infinite wisdom? GTFO with your bitching!!!

Again. Im cool with bargnani playing..whether startng or off the bench...as long as hes not dogging it. I never said he couldnt play ball. I was worried abt his effort. his coach said hes changed, lets see what happens

In regards to melo, under woody hes gone from HORRIBLE on defense to bad. Lol. Hell NEVER be a good def player. Its not due to lack of physical skills..its due to laziness. He absolutely dogs it on the perimeter. I think woody hides these flaws by playing him at the 4.

I also think woody likes playing small ball. I wont be surprised if he starts 2 pgs again.

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

NO! I'm using my common sense. If you add a 7' player who can score from everywhre on the floor, is a top of the league PnP/PnR player, can post, pump fake n drive and hit the 3, then this is a player who can play well next to Melo because no matter what Melo wants to do he can fit in. If Melo is in the high post, AB can go low. They can switch places with ease because AB can shoot from anywhere. What don't you get about that? Explain to us how that doesn't work in your infinite wisdom? GTFO with your bitching!!!

There will only be one basketball.

Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together.

And when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go.

Tkf may be bitching, but its no worse than still trying make people believe in Santa.

Its one thing to hope, but now its reaching delusion.

I dont see how in one breathe everything WILL work out and then another acknowledging the team isnt that good, and admitting the player has legit flaws.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

NO! I'm using my common sense. If you add a 7' player who can score from everywhre on the floor, is a top of the league PnP/PnR player, can post, pump fake n drive and hit the 3, then this is a player who can play well next to Melo because no matter what Melo wants to do he can fit in. If Melo is in the high post, AB can go low. They can switch places with ease because AB can shoot from anywhere. What don't you get about that? Explain to us how that doesn't work in your infinite wisdom? GTFO with your bitching!!!

There will only be one basketball.

Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together.

And when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go.

Tkf may be bitching, but its no worse than still trying make people believe in Santa.

Its one thing to hope, but now its reaching delusion.

I dont see how in one breathe everything WILL work out and then another acknowledging the team isnt that good, and admitting the player has legit flaws.

What you're saying makes no sense. Of course there's only one BB, but we saw early last year that this team can move the ball and play team BB. Our problem was that we had very few skilled scorers on the team and too often players passed up the open shots or couldn't create their own offense. If they weren't making 3's then we had very little else.

I wish you would stop talking like we should expect AB to be a horrible shooter. "when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go." PLEASE! I don't believe we should be expecting AB to shoot horribly if he's healthy. Aside from last year nothing in his career suggests he'll be a bad shooter. The multiple posts in this thread show that he's a top tier shooter on PnP plays which we should expect a lot of on this team.

"Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together." Melo is here to score. AB is here to score. Yes players need to pass if they don't have a shot and another player has a better one, but lets be honest here, these guys are expected to carry the load scoring wise. When the defense is tough you need players that can make something out of nothing.

The entire point of adding Bargnani is to add more versatility to the offense. The same with Beno MWP and THJ. We depended too much on JR as the 2nd scoring option, but he came off the bench. In the starting lineup we need another legit scoring option. We need a player who can play with Melo and mesh. AB has the overall game to be able to keep the floor spaced and be a constant threat no matter where he is. That's not pie in the sky. That is backed up by every statistic on his shooting. He doesn't have to be great from everywhere, but he's good enough that teams will pay for not keeping up with him as they focus on stopping Melo.

In this thread i'm still trying to understand your position. It seems that you are betting on the team being bad the way you're going on about what Bargnani can't do. Even without him this team still has ample talent so why should the team not play as well as they did last year at the least? Most of the key players are back and we actually added talent to the bench. So what leg do you have to stand on that this team shouldn't be better than it was or at the least equally as good?

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

NO! I'm using my common sense. If you add a 7' player who can score from everywhre on the floor, is a top of the league PnP/PnR player, can post, pump fake n drive and hit the 3, then this is a player who can play well next to Melo because no matter what Melo wants to do he can fit in. If Melo is in the high post, AB can go low. They can switch places with ease because AB can shoot from anywhere. What don't you get about that? Explain to us how that doesn't work in your infinite wisdom? GTFO with your bitching!!!

There will only be one basketball.

Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together.

And when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go.

Tkf may be bitching, but its no worse than still trying make people believe in Santa.

Its one thing to hope, but now its reaching delusion.

I dont see how in one breathe everything WILL work out and then another acknowledging the team isnt that good, and admitting the player has legit flaws.

What you're saying makes no sense. Of course there's only one BB, but we saw early last year that this team can move the ball and play team BB. Our problem was that we had very few skilled scorers on the team and too often players passed up the open shots or couldn't create their own offense. If they weren't making 3's then we had very little else.

I wish you would stop talking like we should expect AB to be a horrible shooter. "when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go." PLEASE! I don't believe we should be expecting AB to shoot horribly if he's healthy. Aside from last year nothing in his career suggests he'll be a bad shooter. The multiple posts in this thread show that he's a top tier shooter on PnP plays which we should expect a lot of on this team.

"Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together." Melo is here to score. AB is here to score. Yes players need to pass if they don't have a shot and another player has a better one, but lets be honest here, these guys are expected to carry the load scoring wise. When the defense is tough you need players that can make something out of nothing.

The entire point of adding Bargnani is to add more versatility to the offense. The same with Beno MWP and THJ. We depended too much on JR as the 2nd scoring option, but he came off the bench. In the starting lineup we need another legit scoring option. We need a player who can play with Melo and mesh. AB has the overall game to be able to keep the floor spaced and be a constant threat no matter where he is. That's not pie in the sky. That is backed up by every statistic on his shooting. He doesn't have to be great from everywhere, but he's good enough that teams will pay for not keeping up with him as they focus on stopping Melo.

In this thread i'm still trying to understand your position. It seems that you are betting on the team being bad the way you're going on about what Bargnani can't do. Even without him this team still has ample talent so why should the team not play as well as they did last year at the least? Most of the key players are back and we actually added talent to the bench. So what leg do you have to stand on that this team shouldn't be better than it was or at the least equally as good?

I got a seat reserved for you next year, right next to me...

We'll have some pretty good laughs about this too.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:it is amazing how you talk about the future as if it has happened already..... am I missing something or did carmelo and bargnani play together somewhere?

NO! I'm using my common sense. If you add a 7' player who can score from everywhre on the floor, is a top of the league PnP/PnR player, can post, pump fake n drive and hit the 3, then this is a player who can play well next to Melo because no matter what Melo wants to do he can fit in. If Melo is in the high post, AB can go low. They can switch places with ease because AB can shoot from anywhere. What don't you get about that? Explain to us how that doesn't work in your infinite wisdom? GTFO with your bitching!!!

There will only be one basketball.

Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together.

And when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go.

Tkf may be bitching, but its no worse than still trying make people believe in Santa.

Its one thing to hope, but now its reaching delusion.

I dont see how in one breathe everything WILL work out and then another acknowledging the team isnt that good, and admitting the player has legit flaws.

What you're saying makes no sense. Of course there's only one BB, but we saw early last year that this team can move the ball and play team BB. Our problem was that we had very few skilled scorers on the team and too often players passed up the open shots or couldn't create their own offense. If they weren't making 3's then we had very little else.

I wish you would stop talking like we should expect AB to be a horrible shooter. "when Bargnani starts missing, which he will....to the bench hell go." PLEASE! I don't believe we should be expecting AB to shoot horribly if he's healthy. Aside from last year nothing in his career suggests he'll be a bad shooter. The multiple posts in this thread show that he's a top tier shooter on PnP plays which we should expect a lot of on this team.

"Two players who need the rock and dont faciitaye naturally should never be on the court together." Melo is here to score. AB is here to score. Yes players need to pass if they don't have a shot and another player has a better one, but lets be honest here, these guys are expected to carry the load scoring wise. When the defense is tough you need players that can make something out of nothing.

The entire point of adding Bargnani is to add more versatility to the offense. The same with Beno MWP and THJ. We depended too much on JR as the 2nd scoring option, but he came off the bench. In the starting lineup we need another legit scoring option. We need a player who can play with Melo and mesh. AB has the overall game to be able to keep the floor spaced and be a constant threat no matter where he is. That's not pie in the sky. That is backed up by every statistic on his shooting. He doesn't have to be great from everywhere, but he's good enough that teams will pay for not keeping up with him as they focus on stopping Melo.

In this thread i'm still trying to understand your position. It seems that you are betting on the team being bad the way you're going on about what Bargnani can't do. Even without him this team still has ample talent so why should the team not play as well as they did last year at the least? Most of the key players are back and we actually added talent to the bench. So what leg do you have to stand on that this team shouldn't be better than it was or at the least equally as good?

carmelo anthony usage rate for his career is 32% and his assist rate is 15.8%
andy bargnani usage rate for his career is 27% lately and his assist rate is around 8%

what this means is not many assists get generated when this sort of player is on the floor. putting them together on the floor will compound the issue unless either or both all of a sudden become playmakers.

alas, this is not likely to happen.

then there is the issue of defense when both are on the floor along with that defensive stalwart ray felton.

you and woodson are in for a rude awakening if woodson starts melo and andy together.

your position seems to be to assemble as much "talent" as possible and hope the coach can figure things out. we got away with an assemblage of "talent" last regular season-- sheed and kidd were great for the knicks while they lasted-- but the knicks were rudely awakened by the celtics before being punished by the pacers.

why were they punished: because they were a predictable fool's gold team, not really a team at all. defensively suspect all season, and the coach could not get the ball moving properly. lots of standing around.

but bargnani and udrih are going to change all that, right?

The problems will be rebounding and passing when Bargnani and Melo are on the court

I doubt it.

yellowboy90 wrote:I doubt it.

Do you have anything to back that up besides opinion? I see usage rate & assist rate were used to support the other side of the argument.

dk7th wrote:carmelo anthony usage rate for his career is 32% and his assist rate is 15.8%
andy bargnani usage rate for his career is 27% lately and his assist rate is around 8%

what this means is not many assists get generated when this sort of player is on the floor. putting them together on the floor will compound the issue unless either or both all of a sudden become playmakers.

alas, this is not likely to happen.

This team is going to have to rely on basic BB plays to create scoring and if they're doing those basic things they won't have to worry about Melo or AB being play makers. Here's an example of the kind of plays that the Knicks can run that will be even more effective this year with the addition of Bargnani. It's all about Ball and Player Movement.

dk7th wrote:then there is the issue of defense when both are on the floor along with that defensive stalwart ray felton.

you and woodson are in for a rude awakening if woodson starts melo and andy together.

No one is expecting great defense out of these guys, but I do think AB can hold down the PF spot and his added length will help near the basket next to Tyson. IMO no matter where we put Melo he's not going to be a great defender but we have to continue to get the team defense to a decent level. Let's be honest tho, this team is really about the offense. It's the old MDA method. Great offense and just enough on D. That's the only way it's gonna work. The team does have enough good defenders that they can put a great defensive unit on the floor when they need to. But this is an offensive team at it's core.

dk7th wrote:your position seems to be to assemble as much "talent" as possible and hope the coach can figure things out. we got away with an assemblage of "talent" last regular season-- sheed and kidd were great for the knicks while they lasted-- but the knicks were rudely awakened by the celtics before being punished by the pacers.

why were they punished: because they were a predictable fool's gold team, not really a team at all. defensively suspect all season, and the coach could not get the ball moving properly. lots of standing around.

but bargnani and udrih are going to change all that, right?

Well Beno and Bargnani are specific additions and not just throwing talent together. They make sense for a team looking to add versatility to the offense. They're players that can excel in a team concept. Two EXCELLENT PnP/PnR players with good mid range shooting, which is rarity in the NBA. now we can add that to the 3pt shooting and ISO play we already have. That sounds like a smart plan to me. The same can be said for MWP and THJ. Nothing is wrong with this roster this year in terms of fit.