Knicks · ZERO LEADERSHIP ON THIS ROSTER (page 2)
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Sorry guys (nix) name me one team that won a championship with out a bonefide leadermiami..LBJ/wade
Lakers..kobe
San An..TD/parker
Boston..pp/kg/rondo
dallas..kidd/dirk
Detroit..billups/wallace
Miami...shaq/wade
Lakers..shaq/fisher/kobeAgain these are guys that were consistent, vocal, experience, and made big plays..Kidd was instrumental for us early last season when we had no amare and shump he help build a bond, and had players playing so unselfish..Chemistry and leadership goes hand and hand, and it lies well above talent.
Melo, Amare, and felton are the closest guys we have to leadership and thats scary badYou have a valid point here. It's true we don't have a singular great leader on the team, but there is surely leadership on this team. It's not impossible to think leaders will emerge on this roster. The players we have just aren't at the elite level of leaders.
It's debatable just how much actual leadership some of these players really have. Sometimes players just win cuz they're more talented!!! Doesn't mean they're great leaders of men. Duncan isn't really that vocal and Parker is no leader IMO. I don't know that Kobe is a great leader either. To me Kidd is more of a guy that in his prime was really leading his team in deeds and words. KG is a guy that really changes the mental approach of his team.
nix, these guys we have on this roster are a veteren group of guys that will step up..but the game is more mental then it is talent, especially playing in a massive market like NY..Talent gets you wins but brains gets you rings..
Thats what separates Woodson from being an elite coach and not just a good coach, in the playoffs he goes BRAIN DEAD, that what separates JR s from being a elite player, in the playoffs he's still trying to party like a rock star, thats what separates melo from being jordan like, in the playoffs he still trying to win scoring titles, and those are the 3 MF's that need to take us to the next level..
yellowboy90 wrote:If you're not involved in locker room activities then how do you know one way or another.
It's well known that Duncan isn't that vocal and that KG is much more vocal. Both get their point across very well. It's also well reported what kind of teammate Kobe is and how some players reacted to his "leadership".
There's also a difference between leadership in the locker room and on the court. Some players can take over and lead their team on the floor where others have trouble doing that. As long as we have good PG play this team will be fine. I like the players we have on this team overall. I don't see any real problem with this team being able to play at a high level this year. Winning a title is another question. We won't know about that for a long while. We've got an entire season and playoffs to play before that gets answered.
We have 3-5 above average/borderline elite defenders who can anchor things on that end of the floor (chandler, kmart, artest, Shumpert, and Prigioni).
yellowboy90 wrote:If you're not involved in locker room activities then how do you know one way or another.
The thread title is Nothing but outside guesswork on leadership
Negative Nancy line forms to the left
Leadership starts at the head coaches seat
technomaster wrote:Remember, our boys Felton, Anthony, and Aldrich led their college teams to the promised land. Plus Chandler, Artest, and Udrih have rings. Prigioni has a ton of them.We have 3-5 above average/borderline elite defenders who can anchor things on that end of the floor (chandler, kmart, artest, Shumpert, and Prigioni).
love this post ^^
those are all facts.
what's not a fact is that jason kidd was of real value to us. lotta good his leadership did us in round 1 and 2.
The same kind of flawed star, castoff, malcontent that Shumpert will likely be traded for. This is what happens when you go over the cap to sign the wrong players
40yr Jason Kidd going 0-24 did nothing in terms of leadership
All of the threads all summer long have finally worn me down and convinced me to contact the league office and petition that the Knicks not be allowed to even play this year out of pure ineptitude and evil that the Knicks emanate which will only cause the Knick fan base to eventually internally combust and will also only serve to rub off negatively on other teams.
Melo who should be the leader, leads by scoring the most points. the Captin of the team is clearly suppose to be the leader in any line of work..Now if anyone on this board wants to classify Melo as a leader, then you have your head in space surrounded by stars..
As much as I would like to see Felton develope into a better play maker and leader, he's just too inconsistent in just about every part of his game
knicks1248 wrote:Some of have your head in the clouds..I just ran off the last 15 championship teams which all had leaders on them..Obviously kidd wasn't much of a leader with the knicks, or better yet, it was inconsistent like his game was..Melo who should be the leader, leads by scoring the most points. the Captin of the team is clearly suppose to be the leader in any line of work..Now if anyone on this board wants to classify Melo as a leader, then you have your head in space surrounded by stars..
As much as I would like to see Felton develope into a better play maker and leader, he's just too inconsistent in just about every part of his game
You do realize that Melo won a NCAA Title as the best player on his team? What if he leads this team to the finals? That would basically mean he belongs on that same list you just posted. I think there were serious questions about Lebron until he finally showed he could win a title.
I think it's all too easy to oversimplify the winning of a title. There are a lot of variables and leadership is onebut also talent, chemistry, coaching, luck...
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Some of have your head in the clouds..I just ran off the last 15 championship teams which all had leaders on them..Obviously kidd wasn't much of a leader with the knicks, or better yet, it was inconsistent like his game was..Melo who should be the leader, leads by scoring the most points. the Captin of the team is clearly suppose to be the leader in any line of work..Now if anyone on this board wants to classify Melo as a leader, then you have your head in space surrounded by stars..
As much as I would like to see Felton develope into a better play maker and leader, he's just too inconsistent in just about every part of his gameYou do realize that Melo won a NCAA Title as the best player on his team? What if he leads this team to the finals? That would basically mean he belongs on that same list you just posted. I think there were serious questions about Lebron until he finally showed he could win a title.
I think it's all too easy to oversimplify the winning of a title. There are a lot of variables and leadership is onebut also talent, chemistry, coaching, luck...
Less coaching and talent team has more luck it needs.
Leadersheep is not in need of luck. Knicks are. And we need a lot of it.
Yes. Leader can emerge, like Lin or Galo, and then he will be gone.
We have only one leader - Jimmy Dolan. No more leaders allowed.
Finestrg wrote:I dunno man. We definitely have enough of a veteran presence, so in a sense all the vets combined and individually supply some form of leadership. Then we have a few players who have actually won rings -- Chandler, Beno Udrih, even Artest who was great in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I know Artest is a nutjob but still man. He got to the promise land. That's where we're all looking for this team to go. You don't get there and win it all and not come away with at least some little bit of wisdom to impart on others from the experience. And I agree with Smack -- look at J-Kidd. There wasn't a better leader in modern basketball for the last 10-15 years or so. Love J-Kidd and respect the hell out of him but trust me--we won't miss him at all. He hurt us at the end big-time. No matter how much leadership he had on display the skills were no longer there. Same thing with Chauncey Billups when he was here...Beno Udrih is a sizeable upgrade at the point over Kidd from last year. No matter how much wisdom Kidd still had, he couldn't hit a jumper, couldn't penetrate, couldn't even convert a layup at the end...Combined, I think all 3 of our PGs have plenty of game and enough leadership...I think team chemistry is what we should be looking at and value more. I think we'll be fine there.
Papabear Says
Do you think that J-Kidd new about him getting the Nets Job before the Knicks season was over? People talk and maybe his talk he was to focus on and the Knicks he was not.
I heard Pat Reilly was negotiating with the heat while he was still coach of the Knicks and the season wasn't even over. So maybe J Kidd ran out of gas and maybe like I said maybe he lost intrested In the knicks so maybe he should have retired or quit for one season.
arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Some of have your head in the clouds..I just ran off the last 15 championship teams which all had leaders on them..Obviously kidd wasn't much of a leader with the knicks, or better yet, it was inconsistent like his game was..Melo who should be the leader, leads by scoring the most points. the Captin of the team is clearly suppose to be the leader in any line of work..Now if anyone on this board wants to classify Melo as a leader, then you have your head in space surrounded by stars..
As much as I would like to see Felton develope into a better play maker and leader, he's just too inconsistent in just about every part of his gameYou do realize that Melo won a NCAA Title as the best player on his team? What if he leads this team to the finals? That would basically mean he belongs on that same list you just posted. I think there were serious questions about Lebron until he finally showed he could win a title.
I think it's all too easy to oversimplify the winning of a title. There are a lot of variables and leadership is onebut also talent, chemistry, coaching, luck...
Less coaching and talent team has more luck it needs.
Leadersheep is not in need of luck. Knicks are. And we need a lot of it.
Yes. Leader can emerge, like Lin or Galo, and then he will be gone.
We have only one leader - Jimmy Dolan. No more leaders allowed.
I know you think this is clever, but really it's not. This team isn't perfect and we don't have Lebron or Duncan, but it's not a team of scrubs either!!!
We already have leaders. Do we have all time great leaders? Well no, but there are different levels of leadership as there is talent. What matter most is how it all comes together for this team. Too many Knicks fans and media are letting the collapse against the Pacers cloud the truth about this team. This was a good team last year that had flaws and those flaws caught up with them.
This years team has more talent and less flaws. I think we have enough leadership and talent to compete.
We can't be so jaded and pessimistic that we can no longer fairly judge the capabilities of this team. This team was the #2 seed last year and they earned it fair and square. They had a bunch of injuries too and yet they overcame them and still finished #2. This is a better version of last years team IMO. They did the best they could to try and make improvements. I fully expect them to work hard to try and get further than they did last year. Hopefully they will.
The team gave him a short leash to perform well.
He's now going up against Jason Kidd in his own division, so his pride within the city itself should propel him to "Getter Done".
This isn't a team like the Sixers, Kings or Timberwolves that need a veteran scrub in the locker room to show them the ropes about NBA life and how to maintain focus. They've been around the block. Some of them have won college and NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Now we're in trouble because we don't have an old hothead pothead who led the league in technicals numerous years and served suspensions, and an aging point guard who beat his wife numerous times and drove drunk and crashed his car and went field goal-less during a whole rounds worth of games. OOOooo....gimme some of that leadership, now, please! Because the guys on this team are total losers and scumbags.
Give me a fucking break.
Papabear wrote:Finestrg wrote:I dunno man. We definitely have enough of a veteran presence, so in a sense all the vets combined and individually supply some form of leadership. Then we have a few players who have actually won rings -- Chandler, Beno Udrih, even Artest who was great in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. I know Artest is a nutjob but still man. He got to the promise land. That's where we're all looking for this team to go. You don't get there and win it all and not come away with at least some little bit of wisdom to impart on others from the experience. And I agree with Smack -- look at J-Kidd. There wasn't a better leader in modern basketball for the last 10-15 years or so. Love J-Kidd and respect the hell out of him but trust me--we won't miss him at all. He hurt us at the end big-time. No matter how much leadership he had on display the skills were no longer there. Same thing with Chauncey Billups when he was here...Beno Udrih is a sizeable upgrade at the point over Kidd from last year. No matter how much wisdom Kidd still had, he couldn't hit a jumper, couldn't penetrate, couldn't even convert a layup at the end...Combined, I think all 3 of our PGs have plenty of game and enough leadership...I think team chemistry is what we should be looking at and value more. I think we'll be fine there.
Papabear SaysDo you think that J-Kidd new about him getting the Nets Job before the Knicks season was over? People talk and maybe his talk he was to focus on and the Knicks he was not.
I heard Pat Reilly was negotiating with the heat while he was still coach of the Knicks and the season wasn't even over. So maybe J Kidd ran out of gas and maybe like I said maybe he lost intrested In the knicks so maybe he should have retired or quit for one season.
Interesting. Hadn't really thought about that...I'd like to think Kidd would've stayed clear of any impropriety but who knows man.. This Prokhorov, the things he's said and the way he's conducted himself since buying the Nets -- I wouldn't put it past this piece of garbage to engage in sneaky behavior like that, anything anti-Knick and at our expense... Kidd on the other hand -- if someone talks to you, leaves you a message, etc. you have no choice but to listen, right? I highly doubt Kidd was having any going dialogue with him, lengthy back and forths, etc., during that time. Even Kidd's agent probably didn't hold discussion to that degree with Prokhorov. But it's true -- they very well may have known the Nets' interest by then. Hey even if he did -- it's really not that big a deal. Kidd played here 1 year. Wasn't like he was some lifelong Knick. And he was shot -- a guy I definitely didn't want back as a player, respectfully. Is it normal behavior to negotiate behind the scenes for another job or position while you still hold your current job? Yeah, it is pretty much. Then once you get the new job, you give your 2 week notice, right? That's how I've always gone about securing a better job than the one I had. As long as Kidd never skipped any team practices or whatever to go interview with Prokhorov/King etc., I really don't have a problem with it.
Bottom line on the Nets -- these are all games we need to be circling on the calendar from now on. Prokhorov with his BS, and now KG, Pierce and this little big mouth Terry? Man, I can't wait to get at these guys! I hope our guys are lickin' their chops!! I hope we blow 'em right outta the gym every time we play 'em!!
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:what little leadership we can expect from the players and the coaching staff is going to be mightily challenged with the front office shenanigans that have just gone down , with carmelo anthony's contract swirling like a black hole at the center of the knick galaxy.there is no separation from the head of the fish and the rest of the body, it is one contiguous body. the fish rots from the head down. it is fruitless and vain to expect the players to not feel influenced and adversely affected.
Unless they make changes to the core of the roster I don't expect any of Dolan's crap will have an impact on the way this team plays this year. It's hard to make a case that switching in Mills for Grunwald has any effect on the day to day play of the team. There is in fact separation from Management and the Players on the court. Woodson has the greatest impact on what the players do.
the past is prelude to the present. few can recall how miserable the nuggets were the last time melo's contract was up because knick fans were all caught up in the rumor mill and the palace intrigue and what not. to expect a completely different set of behaviors when the scenario is pretty much the same shit, different year, is really naive.
I think your off base on this one. The situation isn't the same. Melo isn't voicing that he wants to go anywhere else. He's happy here. They've given him everything he wants so why would there be any drama?
This is a good team with a chance to go deep into the playoffs. There's almost nothing similar between the 2 situations. This team is going to be focused on this season.
WHICH is really sad.. because at least in Denver, there was an end to that mess(him leaving) which led to that team being able to heal itself. they were a 57 win team last year... they are finally recovering.... this problem will linger, and if he stays, jeez, I see nothing great for this team in the near future..
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:what little leadership we can expect from the players and the coaching staff is going to be mightily challenged with the front office shenanigans that have just gone down , with carmelo anthony's contract swirling like a black hole at the center of the knick galaxy.there is no separation from the head of the fish and the rest of the body, it is one contiguous body. the fish rots from the head down. it is fruitless and vain to expect the players to not feel influenced and adversely affected.
Unless they make changes to the core of the roster I don't expect any of Dolan's crap will have an impact on the way this team plays this year. It's hard to make a case that switching in Mills for Grunwald has any effect on the day to day play of the team. There is in fact separation from Management and the Players on the court. Woodson has the greatest impact on what the players do.
the past is prelude to the present. few can recall how miserable the nuggets were the last time melo's contract was up because knick fans were all caught up in the rumor mill and the palace intrigue and what not. to expect a completely different set of behaviors when the scenario is pretty much the same shit, different year, is really naive.
I think your off base on this one. The situation isn't the same. Melo isn't voicing that he wants to go anywhere else. He's happy here. They've given him everything he wants so why would there be any drama?
This is a good team with a chance to go deep into the playoffs. There's almost nothing similar between the 2 situations. This team is going to be focused on this season.
when it comes down to it, staying here is one thing but staying here while demanding far more money than he is actually worth-- if the knicks have any hope of winning anything, that is-- is going to create the same swirling and noxious miasma in the garden this season.
once he resigns here, I am taking a knick break.. for real man. My only hope is that this dope goes somewhere else. I am begging for kobe to be the prick he is and talk carmelo into coming there... both those guys deserve one another... As long as it gets him away from here.... I will tell you this.. the contract issue is just the beginning my friend. He will hold this season hostage, simply because he could care less... then when things fall apart he can use the excuse of the contract, lacking focus and of course no help.. then he and the knicks mgt will sell this bullshyt that they finally got this fool locked up and can focus on winning.. but he will be nearing 30 with over 13 years in the league... no doubt his best years behind him.. but it doesn't matter, he will be paid, knicks fans can continue to fantasize about carmelo and his volume shooting, and dolan can keep selling dreams..and false hope.. this is how this MSG machine rolls... I am tired of it bro... once he extends this ride for me is taking a pit stop.. a long one..
technomaster wrote:Remember, our boys Felton, Anthony, and Aldrich led their college teams to the promised land. Plus Chandler, Artest, and Udrih have rings. Prigioni has a ton of them.We have 3-5 above average/borderline elite defenders who can anchor things on that end of the floor (chandler, kmart, artest, Shumpert, and Prigioni).
what does that have to do with leadership on the NBA level.. cole aldrich? really bro?
gunsnewing wrote:Like I said it wasn't leadership or lack there of but the lack of two way/multidimensional stars. Unfortunately we were led by flawed "star" Melo, Tyson, JR and AmareThe same kind of flawed star, castoff, malcontent that Shumpert will likely be traded for. This is what happens when you go over the cap to sign the wrong players
bingo!!