BRIGGS wrote:Anthony is one of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, four rebounds and two assists per game in each of his first 10 seasons. The others are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson and LeBron James
The difference is those other guys have won. I like melo but i try to be objective. His scoring ability is as good as anybody other than lebron maybe. He can rebound the ball pretty good as well but his defense is on and off and he has trouble helping teammates around him better. Also his playoof record has been one of the worst. You cant say he hasnt had talent around him because those denver teams did have good talent and even last year's team did too
Is Melo worth max money?
We can look at it from two directions: first, the numbers; second, the market reality.
If we're considering the question based purely on statistics, we can say no, he's not worth it; he's inefficient, a black-hole, doesn't pass and so on.
But if we consider the reality of the hardwoods, how many other guys in the league can do what he does?
The problem is that guys like LeBron deserve a 1/3rd more than the max. The current max zone is where guys like Melo live.
IronWillGiroud wrote:Is Melo worth max money?We can look at it from two directions: first, the numbers; second, the market reality.
If we're considering the question based purely on statistics, we can say no, he's not worth it; he's inefficient, a black-hole, doesn't pass and so on.
But if we consider the reality of the hardwoods, how many other guys in the league can do what he does?
The problem is that guys like LeBron deserve a 1/3rd more than the max. The current max zone is where guys like Melo live.
As a Knick Fan i just wnat to win or at least get to a nba title series. We all know Melo can score as good as anybody BUT the real and fair question is can he lead a team deep in the playoffs? So far melo hasnt had success in the playoffs. other than one year with denver where in went to the WCF he hanst really gotten past the first round other than last year
Melo=Pippen As long as he is the best player on this team, we not winning jack!
ShellTopAdidas wrote:Melo=Pippen As long as he is the best player on this team, we not winning jack!
Its tough to compare pippen and melo. Melo has the edge scoring but pippen was a much better defensive player who could score and dish and a really good rebounder. Hell even the year Jordan retired Pippen almost led the bulls past the knicks in the semifinals
BRIGGS wrote:Anthony is one of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, four rebounds and two assists per game in each of his first 10 seasons. The others are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson and LeBron James
Great; I hope the Lakers give him $30 mil a year for those 4 rbs a game.
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The better alternative is to spend money more wisely. That means no longer being PPG whores too. There's an infinite # of ways to do that. You can't list *the* better alternative. I've argued for using rather than ignoring the best available statistical models for a long time. With patience, there will be better options available like getting a 23 year old superstar scorer with many other talents for a much lower salary (Harden in Houston).
What makes that a better alternative? There is no proof that your way works. Time will tell for Houston and Harden
Proof? What are your criteria for proof?
fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:playa2 wrote:fishmike wrote:
Only way Knicks ever win big is if they can land a star PG whos star enough to take the ball out of Melo's hands and just make him a finisher. Hard to envision that trade with this roster. Time will tell
Didn't he have that in Denver, Billups ?
and NY
and Iverson too
He needs a new mindset, not a new teammate
no playa and no bonn. Billups was never a great PG. Great defender, great clutch player, but he was never someone who could pick apart a defense and distribute.Melo is never going to have a different mindset, and its silly to think after 10+ years thats changing. The only way he plays off the ball is if its in another great players hands. When Melo does that (Olympics) he's the player folks here wish he would be.
CP3. Maybe Rondo (won a title). Parker... that caliber.
And look at the ONLY year Melo was on a team there was a guy that took more shots than him. It was Iverson, and that was also Melo's BEST year shooting the ball. Its not really hard to to figure out (except for Melo)
There's about 350 players in the league who would be better playing with Chris Paul. You shouldn't need Chris Paul to stop taking dumb shots though.
BRIGGS wrote:Anthony is one of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, four rebounds and two assists per game in each of his first 10 seasons. The others are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson and LeBron James
That means we have to win a championship, because they all did.
Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:playa2 wrote:fishmike wrote:
Only way Knicks ever win big is if they can land a star PG whos star enough to take the ball out of Melo's hands and just make him a finisher. Hard to envision that trade with this roster. Time will tell
Didn't he have that in Denver, Billups ?
and NY
and Iverson too
He needs a new mindset, not a new teammate
no playa and no bonn. Billups was never a great PG. Great defender, great clutch player, but he was never someone who could pick apart a defense and distribute.Melo is never going to have a different mindset, and its silly to think after 10+ years thats changing. The only way he plays off the ball is if its in another great players hands. When Melo does that (Olympics) he's the player folks here wish he would be.
CP3. Maybe Rondo (won a title). Parker... that caliber.
And look at the ONLY year Melo was on a team there was a guy that took more shots than him. It was Iverson, and that was also Melo's BEST year shooting the ball. Its not really hard to to figure out (except for Melo)
There's about 350 players in the league who would be better playing with Chris Paul. You shouldn't need Chris Paul to stop taking dumb shots though.
of those 350 how many are capable of dropping 30 a night and have led their teams to 50 wins year after year WITHOUT Chris Paul.
Look.. Im not a Melo homer, I think thats been well established, but just because he doest shoot 50% doesnt mean he just another Al Harrington. Nobody has been more critical of Melo's playoff failures then me, but Melo is a bigtime NBA player with a unique skill set. He's not how I would build a team but I do believe he be a part of a title contendor, even the main part. He needs a true floor general. Not a guy who dribbles and hands it off for 20 seconds of pounding the rock on an iso play.
tkf wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's worth the money.I hope that he considers giving us a house discount or atleast taking a frontloaded contract so we can have solid spending money the following year.
But lets get real here. Carmelo is a top 10 player who is a top 3 scorer capable of dominating NBA basketball games. Few players like him. You can look at his deficiencies but hes a worthy max player. Does he have 5 years left after this one? Well hes never been a run jump athlete so his knees should hold up and he seems to be a hard worker in the offseason--but there will be risk with the back end of that contract. If he gets it--they must give every dollar they can in year 1 and when they go back into free agency it will have to be a guy who is young.
so briggs why hasn't he done so in any of the playoffs here in NY.. why was it paul george that had the superstar impact.. why was it paul pierce , garnett... I keep hearing this, but yet to see any evidence.
he's not good enough to create. Getting a shot off and creating are two different things. If you bottle up the other players you can force Melo into iso mode and taking a ton of shots at a low %. He needs the second player. When Billups was beasting they went to the conf finals. When Iverson took the most shots on the Nuggs Melo had his best shooting % of his career. Cant ask Melo to change.. he's Melo. But if he had a peer on the team he's shown the things we all hate about him are managable.
Look at Dirk. Dallas fans killed "Irk" (with no D). Put Tyson and Marion next to him and add a scorer in the backcourt and he's an MVP with a title. Could that be MElo? I doubt it but it would be nice to at least find out.
I make no excuses for MElo. Holes in his game are just that, and many are mental/approach type holes. But he's good and unique. Are the Knicks execs capable of seeing what he needs? Or is the MO just to cater to their new cash cow? I think its the later which SUCKS because it just meas we are the Knuggets all over again
fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:playa2 wrote:fishmike wrote:
Only way Knicks ever win big is if they can land a star PG whos star enough to take the ball out of Melo's hands and just make him a finisher. Hard to envision that trade with this roster. Time will tell
Didn't he have that in Denver, Billups ?
and NY
and Iverson too
He needs a new mindset, not a new teammate
no playa and no bonn. Billups was never a great PG. Great defender, great clutch player, but he was never someone who could pick apart a defense and distribute.Melo is never going to have a different mindset, and its silly to think after 10+ years thats changing. The only way he plays off the ball is if its in another great players hands. When Melo does that (Olympics) he's the player folks here wish he would be.
CP3. Maybe Rondo (won a title). Parker... that caliber.
And look at the ONLY year Melo was on a team there was a guy that took more shots than him. It was Iverson, and that was also Melo's BEST year shooting the ball. Its not really hard to to figure out (except for Melo)
There's about 350 players in the league who would be better playing with Chris Paul. You shouldn't need Chris Paul to stop taking dumb shots though.
of those 350 how many are capable of dropping 30 a night and have led their teams to 50 wins year after year WITHOUT Chris Paul.Look.. Im not a Melo homer, I think thats been well established, but just because he doest shoot 50% doesnt mean he just another Al Harrington. Nobody has been more critical of Melo's playoff failures then me, but Melo is a bigtime NBA player with a unique skill set. He's not how I would build a team but I do believe he be a part of a title contendor, even the main part. He needs a true floor general. Not a guy who dribbles and hands it off for 20 seconds of pounding the rock on an iso play.
The shooting is just one issue. He's below average in every phase of the game other than PPG. I do think high volume scoring has some value, but not remotely close to $20 mil. Probably not even remotely close to remotely close to 20 mil.
Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:playa2 wrote:fishmike wrote:
Only way Knicks ever win big is if they can land a star PG whos star enough to take the ball out of Melo's hands and just make him a finisher. Hard to envision that trade with this roster. Time will tell
Didn't he have that in Denver, Billups ?
and NY
and Iverson too
He needs a new mindset, not a new teammate
no playa and no bonn. Billups was never a great PG. Great defender, great clutch player, but he was never someone who could pick apart a defense and distribute.Melo is never going to have a different mindset, and its silly to think after 10+ years thats changing. The only way he plays off the ball is if its in another great players hands. When Melo does that (Olympics) he's the player folks here wish he would be.
CP3. Maybe Rondo (won a title). Parker... that caliber.
And look at the ONLY year Melo was on a team there was a guy that took more shots than him. It was Iverson, and that was also Melo's BEST year shooting the ball. Its not really hard to to figure out (except for Melo)
There's about 350 players in the league who would be better playing with Chris Paul. You shouldn't need Chris Paul to stop taking dumb shots though.
of those 350 how many are capable of dropping 30 a night and have led their teams to 50 wins year after year WITHOUT Chris Paul.Look.. Im not a Melo homer, I think thats been well established, but just because he doest shoot 50% doesnt mean he just another Al Harrington. Nobody has been more critical of Melo's playoff failures then me, but Melo is a bigtime NBA player with a unique skill set. He's not how I would build a team but I do believe he be a part of a title contendor, even the main part. He needs a true floor general. Not a guy who dribbles and hands it off for 20 seconds of pounding the rock on an iso play.
The shooting is just one issue. He's below average in every phase of the game other than PPG. I do think high volume scoring has some value, but not remotely close to $20 mil. Probably not even remotely close to remotely close to 20 mil.
he is not worth more than 15 million per year if you want to win a title. he obviously isn't interested in winning so i would try and trade him.
ShellTopAdidas wrote:Melo=Pippen As long as he is the best player on this team, we not winning jack!
I WISH HE WAS as good as pippen...
This team was not far off the goal last year with Melo. The AARP roster didn't work but they did get to see what was needed to improve. Now they've made some changes to the supporting cast that I believe makes them better. We'll see just how effective those changes are this year. If this team gets further this season then there should be no question Melo should be paid. It's not like we have to pay him now before seeing how he performs. Melo will have to perform at a high level in order to get the money he wants from any team including this one. IMO there's no way he gets the money he wants if he has a poor playoffs this year.
fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:his actual value is somewhere around 15 million. "actual" meaning how good is he as a playoff performer. by overpaying him he guarantees playoff failure.
lol.. i can see a lot of thought went into that one
have you seen his body of work in the playoffs his entire career. he does not have what it takes and has shown no growth over the years.
fishmike wrote:tkf wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's worth the money.I hope that he considers giving us a house discount or atleast taking a frontloaded contract so we can have solid spending money the following year.
But lets get real here. Carmelo is a top 10 player who is a top 3 scorer capable of dominating NBA basketball games. Few players like him. You can look at his deficiencies but hes a worthy max player. Does he have 5 years left after this one? Well hes never been a run jump athlete so his knees should hold up and he seems to be a hard worker in the offseason--but there will be risk with the back end of that contract. If he gets it--they must give every dollar they can in year 1 and when they go back into free agency it will have to be a guy who is young.
so briggs why hasn't he done so in any of the playoffs here in NY.. why was it paul george that had the superstar impact.. why was it paul pierce , garnett... I keep hearing this, but yet to see any evidence.
he's not good enough to create. Getting a shot off and creating are two different things. If you bottle up the other players you can force Melo into iso mode and taking a ton of shots at a low %. He needs the second player. When Billups was beasting they went to the conf finals. When Iverson took the most shots on the Nuggs Melo had his best shooting % of his career. Cant ask Melo to change.. he's Melo. But if he had a peer on the team he's shown the things we all hate about him are managable.Look at Dirk. Dallas fans killed "Irk" (with no D). Put Tyson and Marion next to him and add a scorer in the backcourt and he's an MVP with a title. Could that be MElo? I doubt it but it would be nice to at least find out.
I make no excuses for MElo. Holes in his game are just that, and many are mental/approach type holes. But he's good and unique. Are the Knicks execs capable of seeing what he needs? Or is the MO just to cater to their new cash cow? I think its the later which SUCKS because it just meas we are the Knuggets all over again
if that is the case fish, then he should not be demanding a max contract..
Dirk has his issues but was a more complete player, his biggest problem was staying to much on the outside.. once he changed that, he was a champion.. but lets be real. dirk reached the finals early in his career.... has always delivered in the playoffs....
tkf wrote:ShellTopAdidas wrote:Melo=Pippen As long as he is the best player on this team, we not winning jack!
I WISH HE WAS as good as pippen...
True that!!! If he was as good as Pippen, we would at least got to the ECF! I really don't like that dude! Gutted our squad, then ousted a bunch of people that was threatening his shine, help contribute to building a team and coach to cater to his liking, figures out that THAT isn't enough, now he wanna play with Kobe. And to be honest, that's the only way he gonna get a championship if he teams up with someone better then him. Only thing he gonna get here is paid!
playa2 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He's worth the money.I hope that he considers giving us a house discount or atleast taking a frontloaded contract so we can have solid spending money the following year.
But lets get real here. Carmelo is a top 10 player who is a top 3 scorer capable of dominating NBA basketball games. Few players like him. You can look at his deficiencies but hes a worthy max player.
You have to ask yourself does his deficiencies hinder you to win it all or can you win it all with them ?
He needs help, players who want to win it all will sacrifice .
if it were merely deficiencies-- but he makes others worse.
ShellTopAdidas wrote:tkf wrote:ShellTopAdidas wrote:Melo=Pippen As long as he is the best player on this team, we not winning jack!
I WISH HE WAS as good as pippen...
True that!!! If he was as good as Pippen, we would at least got to the ECF! I really don't like that dude! Gutted our squad, then ousted a bunch of people that was threatening his shine, help contribute to building a team and coach to cater to his liking, figures out that THAT isn't enough, now he wanna play with Kobe. And to be honest, that's the only way he gonna get a championship if he teams up with someone better then him. Only thing he gonna get here is paid!
and honestly I think he and kobe would be an absolute mess... I think kobe would choke carmelo, as soon as he figures out he doesn't pass or defend....
I would love to have seen Melo playing with a really good PG. For one thing it would mitigate some of his flaws and improve his strengths. Having an attacking and great passing PG would really help a lot. I'd love to see a kid like Rondo play with Melo. The roster is flawed in that regard since we have Felton who isn't a great passer and have to supplement his game with Prigs just to get some decent PG play to run this team. IMO part of Melo's issues have come from talented but flawed teams he's played on. When he had Billups things improved but that wasn't for a long enough stretch of time. It's not so much that you have to have a BETTER player next to Melo. Rather you need a SMARTER TEAM player next to him that can run the team and control Melo's game.
